Titans Actual Value? Worth The Buy?

JukeBox360 · Mar 11, 2013

Hello Toms Community!

I've been having a pretty big debate ever since the recent launch on the new GTX Titan and it's actual value. Many people had question the GTX690s value as well. But I believe anyone who planned on SLI 680s wouldn't regret getting a 690 anyway. As the value of two 680s was just about equal to the 690. Which is why I don't understand the Titan pricing.

Gaming wise. Sure, it's the fastest single GPU you can buy. We all know it's specs but does that make it worth it's value? And I'm not talking about just gaming. I'm talking about anything you can use a GPU for. Gaming, Video Editing etc. What card is closest to it?

Personally, I feel the Titan should be priced at around $850-$750. And what about the next gen cards? Are the 700 series cards not coming out this year? I can't imagine the next gen cards Flagship GPU being a lower performer of the Titan.

Sorry about the random talks about the card. I'm just a bit confused and would like to know people thoughts on the value of the Titan. Hope to hear from all of you!

Juke

edogawa · Mar 11, 2013

Titan isn't worth it unless your rich and like to throw around cash. 700 series is supposed to come out this year I believe. 2 680s sound better to me.

17seconds · Mar 11, 2013

Hardware Canucks had the best analysis and justification for the Titan's pricing:
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/59785-nvidia-geforce-gtx-titan-6gb-performance-review-19.html

Quote:
"If the GTX TITAN’s price is exclusively associated with raw frame rates, it seems like NVIDIA may have completely misjudged its positioning somewhere along the line. $1000 for a product that simply strides in the vast open space between the GTX 680 and GTX 690 yet is priced identically to the latter seems absolutely preposterous at first glance. But it isn’t. NVIDIA’s strategy here is spot-on and there are two reason for that: frame times and consistency.

When it comes to a consistent gameplay experience, the TITAN is head, shoulders and knees above its compatriots. The low standard deviation shown between frame times is a fraction of what other solutions offer, which in turn leads to significantly smoother onscreen performance. For example, the GTX 690 exhibits many of the issues normally associated with dual GPU cards like minor stuttering and outright frame hesitation, a situation the TITAN deftly avoids by virtue of being a single core solution. Gamers won’t have to wait for the latest SLI profile for optimal new game support either. So while the GTX 690 may outclass the TITAN in terms of raw framerate production, the GK110 clearly holds the edge this key area."
End Quote

wdmfiber · Mar 11, 2013

It's too weak versus a 690 and not strong enough over a 7970 boost edition.

Plus it's anti-epeen. Like cruising in a rock-box turbo civic kit car. Ya... maybe it's ok fast, but too embarrassing...

And nVidia Maxwell GPU's are a legit concern. The 700 series may just be a name change/refresh, based on the same 28nm tech as the 600 series. But the next generation 20nm cards should be available in 2014 and will eclispe Titan(870/880 ?). Titan is way late, the 7970 was released 15 months ago.

quilciri · Mar 11, 2013

There are other scenarios in which a titan makes sense over other options, though of course $ are involved.

A mini-ITX build, in which a 680 isn't strong enough and a 690 won't fit.

The strongest applicable SLI setup. 3 and 4 way SLI has limited support in games. If you have 3 or 4 GPU's, you need to check if the games you want to play benefit from a 3rd or 4th card. A pair of cards enjoys near-universal support, so a pair of titans is the strongest "practical" SLI setup - and I only use the word practical in regards to game benefit in the largest number of games.

I'm sure there's other I havent thought of.

Most peolpe would never buy a titan, myself included. It is a viable product however, and I can see it enjoying success.

Besides, a large part of the reason for flagship cards is braggin rights, they're not major moneymakers. Before the titan, how many people do you think bought a 690 or a 680 versus how many people bought 670's, 660ti's or 660's?

feeblepenguin · Mar 11, 2013

10ms frame deviation doesn't mean a thing. that's like jumping from 100fps to 50fps for one frame. or from 40 to 30 fps. big whoop.

bigcyco1 · Mar 11, 2013

I personally think the card is overpriced. I wouldn't buy it.It should be selling for $750 instead it's going for $1,000 that's crazy.

redeemer · Mar 11, 2013

$1000 dollar card with no backplate...seriously

JukeBox360 · Mar 11, 2013

Hm. So it seems there are some mixed feelings about this card. Some see it's benefits while others don't. I don't think anyone would really be questioning the card had it been priced at a lower value. $850 being the highest. But as most seem to agree on. $1000 for a single GPU that doesn't at least perform as well as a 690 is a bit much. Maybe it's compute performance is insanely good?

The one main reason I'm even looking towards this card vs others on the market is due to single GPU solution. I was running a SLI 680 set up prior to whatever next card I purchase. I had a GTX 690 as well. I actually had them all at the same time lol. Didn't know which to buy. In the end. I kept 680SLI for one major reason. Heat being thrown into the case. I really did not like the idea of that. Temps in my case went up by about 15c with it. So I stuck with SLI.

Now, the Titan is released. It got me interested. Honestly the only thing I don't seem to like is the price. I do like that it's faster then anything else. After owning SLI I've decided I would not want to stick with SLI in the future. SLI just seems to complicate things more then help. So I'm excited about the chance to go back to a single card. I'm wondering if driver updates will make the Titan perform even better as time goes by.

If the next gen cards come out this year I might be a little pissed. As I expect at least two of them to surpass the Titan. That being said. If they do the same thing they did with the 600 series to the next. I won't be to pissed. The one thing I just can't stand about the 600 series was the fact that they cut compute performance to useless compared to the 500 series. AMD was smart enough to make both a fast gaming and compute GPU.

I'm also wondering how well it will perform in Sony Vegas and After Effects.

I love the amount of talk this thread is making. Lets keep it up as I'm still in a huge debacle of making up my mind on what to do. Again. I'd be using it for compute and gaming. More compute then gaming. Would be interested in hearing what others have to say. Any Titan owners in here?

JukeBox360 · Mar 11, 2013

redeemer :

I tend to agree with this. Just doesn't make sense that any of their flagship GPUs don't come with a back plate.

wdmfiber · Mar 11, 2013

@JukeBox360
Link below to Tom's review of the GTX Titan. Typically, the Radeon 7970 is better at compute(sometimes by a lot). I assume you would have dissected the review of all infomation; perhaps you just forgot. And remeber all of the rumors about Titan turned out to be extreme exaggerations. For example: the rumored 3dmark11 xtreme score was 7107. It's nowhere near that strong (~approx 2000 points lower).
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-titan-performance-review,3442-10.html

And messing in menus to get full compute performance(disabling GPU boost) is bizarre, seems
antiquated really.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-titan-gk110-review,3438-3.html

JukeBox360 · Mar 12, 2013

wdmfiber :

That doesn't seem like a bad solution. It's only a quick settings change. From what I can see in that second article you can set the compute performance to kick in by simple selecting it to do so in certain applications. So you'd basically have to set which program within the nvidia control panel to allow full compute. Which seems easy enough to do. Or am I missing something here and it's not that easy?

wdmfiber · Mar 12, 2013

JukeBox360 :

No, your not missing anything. True enough, just a setting. Unless you never had to do it, like with other GPU's...

JukeBox360 · Mar 12, 2013

I'm pretty used to going into the control panel from running SLI for so long. SO it wouldn't really bother me.

Here is one thing I have to ask. Does anyone else think they made this GPU last year and just released it now? I feel like this is what the 680 should have been. The only main difference is compute performance vs the 600 series. The Titan also looks a lot like the 690. It seems like it makes more sense that nvidia saw that AMD wasn't as strong as expected?

echamberlin8 · Mar 12, 2013

I'm on the fence between GTX Titan, SLI GTX 680 4GB versions, and a GTX 690. Comments like JukeBox360's about not wanting to go back to SLI are the only things making me consider the Titan. I don't want to run into any issues. Frankly, I don't know a huge amount about computers, so I want something very simple that I won't have to tamper with. I'm also planning on gaming on a 1440p monitor. Do you think it's worth getting the Titan, or should I get the greater power of the SLI GTX 680 4GB's, since I will be running it on a 27" monitor in extreme-definition?

quilciri · Mar 12, 2013

feeblepenguin :

The interwebz disagrees with you.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-processor-frame-rate-performance,3427-2.html

JukeBox360 · Mar 12, 2013

echamberlin8 :

Depends how badly you want performance vs simplicity. SLI is awesome when it works. But it's so much more complex then a single gpu. I was running SLI 680 before and loved its performance but hated its issues in some games. That's also a big reason I'm leaning towards the Titan. It's the fastest SINGLE gpu on the market. I'm still pretty sure nvidia wouldn't have trouble selling these cards had they been priced at $800.

JukeBox360 · Mar 12, 2013

quilciri :

Even I didn't agree with his comment. I'd much rather have slightly lower FPS with more consistent and less frame dips vs unreliably. Which again is why I hated SLI. Most people can't tell micro stutter and what not with SLI. I sure as heck can. It's annoying. Which is why I'm here debating the Titan.

Back to my other question. Does anyone else feel this was the original 680 that was supposed to be released a year ago? I feel this is very true. If it is. I'd be doubtful I'd even buy from nvidia again.

wdmfiber · Mar 12, 2013

JukeBox360 :

By the time the 7970 was released(Jan. 2012) it was too late for nVidia to do anything with design. The same company makes the essential GPU wafers for both AMD and nVidia, using the same technology. That being the 28nm fabrication process. And the company is TSCM(Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing).

The same thing is happening right now with the next generation of GPU's. Codenamed "Maxwell" (nVidia) and "Volcanic Islands" (AMD). The process from design to mass production takes years; you can't do a redesign based on your competitors release. But you can tune. It would be like going to Daytona for the 500. Analyzing the competition during practice and going back to "your shop" and building a better car in time for the race. It's not possible!

What happened at TSCM with the GK110 (Titan) was prob yield issues. And nVidia could have been doomed, they had to get something out the door to compete with 7970/7950. So they did a quick and radical re-tune. Gutting the mid-level GK104 of compute performance, in turn boosting it's graphical performance... and they got it out the door as the GTX 680/670.

At over 7 billion transistors the GK110 is likely very hard to produce. As the 7970/50 is based on a wafer with only 3.5 billion transistors, so I guess you could have 50% of them "bad" and still have higher yeilds then GK110 (as 100% is impossible). That also begs the question as to why the Titan doesn't "kill" the 7970... Well it just runs slower and has parts of it disabled (vs. Tesla K20), like the 7970 vs. 7950. Plus the Titan and 7970 both use about the same amount of power(250 watts) and both being 28nm chips, performance is close... and it shows in the benchmarks.

Other scenarios? Free free to speculate!

JukeBox360 · Mar 12, 2013

So in short. You don't think this was suppose to be the 680? It just ended up not being quite ready in time? I do imagine the Titan getting much MUCH better in time with it's drivers. Just as AMD did this year.

It seems Maxwell is going to be insane. That being said. It's the PC world. Pretty much impossible to stay up to date. I wonder what the chances are of being able to sell a Titan after the next cards come out.

JukeBox360 · Mar 12, 2013

Also how much faster do you think the next gen GPUs will be then the Titan? I don't expect the Titan to remain it's fastest card but I would expect it to remain in the top 3. What do you think of this based on the years of cards from before?

echamberlin8 · Mar 12, 2013

Thanks for the responses, guys. Sorry, I've had a 15-hour-day at work, but I want to definitely post some responses to these tomorrow.

I'd be curious to hear just how much more complex SLI GPUs are than a single GPU IN DETAIL, since that would definitely help me make my decision. Can you give me as many details to this as possible? If it truly is a complicated process to play MOST games (I don't plan on just playing blockbuster AAA titles, but older games too, from Baldur's Gate to Half-Life 2 to Doom to whatever you can possibly think of), then I will just end up getting a Titan (or a GTX 690, but it sounds like that behaves just like SLI 680s).

17seconds · Mar 12, 2013

JukeBox360 :

This was indicated in the prelude to most Titan reviews...

Quote:
"So here's a small secret, initially roughly a year ago we expected the GK110 chip to be launching in the GeForce GTX 680, but the GK104 currently in use for GeForce GTX 680 was, simply put, just too good and yielded so much better. See the GK110 chip is HUGE, and that makes it a difficult chip to bake, its recipe is so sweet though. So it made a lot of sense for Nvidia to wait as long as possible to release this chip once wafer yields would improve and the fabrication processes more refined."
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_gtx_titan_review,1.html

Quote:
"When AMD launched its Radeon HD 7970 in December 2011, it appeared for a brief moment as though AMD was set for 2012. Brief, because there was more than just arrogance in NVIDIA's dismissal of AMD's new flagship GPU and the architecture that drives it. NVIDIA's "Kepler" GPU architecture was designed under the assumption that the HD 7970 would be much faster than it ended up being, so the company realized its second best chip, the GK104, had a fair shot against the HD 7900 series.

The GK104 really was just a successor of the GF114 that drives the performance-segment GeForce GTX 560 Ti. What followed was a frantic attempt by NVIDIA to re-package the GK104 into a high-end product, the GeForce GTX 680, while shelving its best but expensive chip, the GK110 (which drives the GTX Titan we're reviewing today). The gambit paid off when the GTX 680 snatched the performance crown from the HD 7970 in March. AMD may have responded with the faster HD 7970 GHz Edition in June, but it flunked energy-efficiency and fan-noise tests big time."
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_Titan/

JukeBox360 · Mar 12, 2013

echamberlin8 :

For some reason older games SUCK with SLI. Way worse then 1 card. Only reason I can think as to why is because they were never optimized for SLI or Crossfire.

Keep in mind. I'm speaking from personal use over the past year. It was enough of a pain for me to no longer want to deal with two cards again. I now understand why the majority say it's just easier to deal with 1 card vs 2.

I owned SLI 680 while my friend owned just 1 680. He never had half the issues, frame rate drops, or stuttering like I did. I kept my 680 at stock. So it wasn't from anything I've done. Just wasn't as simple as 1 card.

JukeBox360 · Mar 12, 2013

17seconds :

JukeBox360 :

This was indicated in the prelude to most Titan reviews...

Quote:
"So here's a small secret, initially roughly a year ago we expected the GK110 chip to be launching in the GeForce GTX 680, but the GK104 currently in use for GeForce GTX 680 was, simply put, just too good and yielded so much better. See the GK110 chip is HUGE, and that makes it a difficult chip to bake, its recipe is so sweet though. So it made a lot of sense for Nvidia to wait as long as possible to release this chip once wafer yields would improve and the fabrication processes more refined."
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_gtx_titan_review,1.html

Quote:
"When AMD launched its Radeon HD 7970 in December 2011, it appeared for a brief moment as though AMD was set for 2012. Brief, because there was more than just arrogance in NVIDIA's dismissal of AMD's new flagship GPU and the architecture that drives it. NVIDIA's "Kepler" GPU architecture was designed under the assumption that the HD 7970 would be much faster than it ended up being, so the company realized its second best chip, the GK104, had a fair shot against the HD 7900 series.

The GK104 really was just a successor of the GF114 that drives the performance-segment GeForce GTX 560 Ti. What followed was a frantic attempt by NVIDIA to re-package the GK104 into a high-end product, the GeForce GTX 680, while shelving its best but expensive chip, the GK110 (which drives the GTX Titan we're reviewing today). The gambit paid off when the GTX 680 snatched the performance crown from the HD 7970 in March. AMD may have responded with the faster HD 7970 GHz Edition in June, but it flunked energy-efficiency and fan-noise tests big time."
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_Titan/

So in short. I'm not the only one to believe this. Really makes me wonder if they would ever admit to such a thing? It actually ticks me off even more if it holds true. Anyone who purchased a 600 series card has basically been ripped off.

Titans Actual Value? Worth The Buy?

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