Airflow Idea, advice and suggestions wanted.

ryteklikd · Apr 14, 2013

Hi there, i apologise if i have posted this thread in the wrong place, components maybe??

I have a NZXT Phantom 410 case and need your opinion on the airflow setup i want to try. I have browsed the forums and ended up with this from a few different ideas people have posted.

The system is half built and im still in the process of ordering parts as i can afford them. Main components you might need to know about is a HD7950 Vapor-X GPU and a Corsair H100i watercooling kit - which isnt pictured.

So I have 3 fans included with the case to play with. 2x 120mm fans and an 140mm fan. The case supports a 240mm radiator housed in the roof (H100i will sit here) so ive removed the 140mm fan that was there and placed it in the front as intake. The 120mm fan which was in the front has been moved to sit at the bottom in front of the PSU as intake. The 120mm at the rear has been reversed to be an intake. I know what your thinking..

The idea is a bottom to top airflow, two intakes from bottom and front, air will head up past the GPU (2 fans attached), meeting up with the top rear intake and get sucked straight up and out through the h100i rad fans (exhaust). Hope i explained this right. Heres some pictures, sorry if theyre bad and dark.

Here you can see the radiator housing and the top rear exhaust fan has been flipped to intake.

Heres a shot of the bottom showing the front 140mm and bottom 120mm fans.

The clearance for the floor fan intake. Bit hard to see. Maybe 2-3cm??

A quick overview. Theres also a space on the side door for a 120 or 140mm fan currently unused.

Sorry about the huge rant, i maybe have complicated things. This thread is where the idea came from and i just wanted more opinions. All credit due to the rightful posters.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/381273-31-nzxt-phantom-airflow

Thanks for your time and your opinons/advice would be greatly appreciated.

manofchalk · Apr 14, 2013

Hmm, considering I was the one to propose this idea in the first place I think its a good one...

.
I guess you already know my opinion on the setup, so all I can say is that I haven't changed my mind in the last few months.

Andy11466 · Apr 14, 2013

I'd say move the fan to the spot directly above it to push air in. Then the spot next to it (Above the PSU) make that blow OUT.
The fan that's on the top backside of the case(where all the plugs are) originally comes with the case that points out.

This method basically circulates air throughout. Since fresh air is pushed to the bottom then heat will be sucked out from the 2 fans near the top back side. (Fun Fact: Heat Rises)

Also known as the push pull effect.

The Q6660 Inside · Apr 14, 2013

Andy11466 :

+1, But I am pretty sure moving the bottom fan would not be a sound fit for the H100i, so I would remove it all together.

ryteklikd · Apr 14, 2013

Yes indeed manofchalk, I actually feel quite honored that you found this thread and posted lol. So with my particular setup you think this would circulate air okay? 3 intakes vs 1 exhaust over a 240mm area? I could always place the system on blocks so the floor fan intake area is bigger and would suck in alot more air. One thing im unsure of is all the air, including warm/hot would be exhausting into the radiator (the fans placed under the rad), this is where the rear exhaust would help im guessing. Would I also need to get another two fans to sit on top of the radiator (dunno if theyd fit) so its got the bottom two sucking in and the top two pulling out.. i was told you need to pull air out from radiators because pushing in doesnt exhaust as well.

Sorry Andy im a bit confused on which fans and spots youve mentioned. The H100i and its fans will take up the entire roof housing so the rad setup would be exhaust.. manofchalk mentioned having this as an intake isnt such a good idea. So that leaves me with:

Front: slot for 1x 140mm or 2x 120mm
Side: slot for 1x 140 or 120mm
Floor: slot for 120mm
Rear: slot for 120mm

And i only have 1 140mm and 2 120mm fans to use unless i brought more. It was set up when i purchased the case to have a 120mm front intake and a 120mm rear exhaust. The 140mm was in the roof where the rad would sit but i cant remember if it was intake or exhaust

How would you do it Q6600? The roof housing would only fit the rad. There will definately be no more for additonals up there. So you just use a front intake and top rear exhaust??

Thank you all for your input.

ryteklikd · Apr 14, 2013

Andy11466 :

So you mean have an intake fan in the roof housing in the slot closest to the front? Then one in the slot behind it as exhaust with the fan in the top rear switched back to exhaust also? Then where would i mount the rad? Sorry totally lost.. lol

Edit: Yup i think i got that right after a few re-reads. Since theres only 3 fans i wouldnt have a front intake in this scenario. Id have two extra from the rad but i want these to stay on it.

ryteklikd · Apr 14, 2013

Or my original plan was to keep it how it was, 120mm front intake, 120 rear exhaust, H100i in the roof housing exhaust.. and put the 140mm fan that was in the roof on the side panel as intake?

manofchalk · Apr 14, 2013

Yea, I think it will be fine like that. Some warm air from the the graphics card and mobo will end up going through the radiator at the top, but I think it will be mixed with enough fresh air to not make much of a difference.

There is a benefit to having push and pull fans on a radiator, but not for the reason your concerned about. It has to do with increasing the pressure of the air moving through radiator has (to overcome the resistance it poses), not because either push or pull fans are insufficient.
Should be fine just to have one set of fans on the radiator, I suggest having them in pull. Not for any performance reason, but because its easier to clean as the dust wont build up underneath a fan.

ryteklikd · Apr 15, 2013

manofchalk :

The only way to find out which airflow is better is to do a stress test i assume? Put the components under load and pump the fans up and see hows the temps go? The ambient temp inside my house could get quite warm as its coming up to winter soon and were already lighting the fire (were old school, no heat pump lol) which could be concerning hence water over air for the CPU, oh and NZ retailers are out of stock for the Noctua D14. I like the setup you suggested Manofchalk, but im still a bit wary, hence wanting more input from people.

So ill just use the two stock fans with the H100i, they'll mount under it upside down facing the mobo. By pull i presume sucking air from inside the case, exhaust through the rad and out the roof? I was told to run the radiator pump at 100% all the time.. will this make a difference with that push/pull thing?

manofchalk · Apr 15, 2013

Ahh, your a Kiwi.
Greeting from the other side of the Tasman!

That would be a good way to test which airflow configuration works, though I wouldn't ramp up the fans faster than you would normally. No point figuring out which configuration is best when the fans are rivaling jet engines for noise, because you wont run them like that normally.

Water cooling is subject to ambient temps just like air is, on a hot day my 3570k will idle at 40°C (this is with custom water-cooling). Just that water-cooling (not really with CLC's like the H100) operates within much smaller Delta's (Load/Idle temp - Ambient temp) than air can achieve.

By pull, I mean the fan is pulling air through the radiator. What your thinking of is exhaust, which is just blowing air out of the case, regardless of the fans orientation on the rad.

Radiator pump? The pump on a H100i (and near all CLC coolers) is located on the CPU block.
But anyway, running the pump at 100% will improve cooling performance. Not because it ties in any way to having push/pull fans (which does improve performance on its own for reasons said above), but just because a greater flow rate leads to better cooling.

ryteklikd · Apr 15, 2013

Hah you're Australian? Damn it'd would have been a wild summer huh, few friends over there said it was.insane.

I was planning on setting up Asus FanXpert to manage fan speeds based on temperature but I need a better understanding of how fast the fans should be going for certain temp ranges. I definately wont blast them full load during the test, but is it a good idea to have this set up for it? PS im a first timer with the whole PC building so im learning as i go and ive tried to learn as much as possible since i started a month or so ago.

CLC? Something to do with custom or closed loop cooling right? I havent looked into water cooling alot but just assumed it would perform better than air. Ive seen reviews showing performamce between the two can be very on par with each other. As for custom links i dont know much. I just thought the H100i was a good choice and basically a easy and simple option. A few people pointed me to the D14 which i was going to switch to but as i said, using pricespy all the listed retailers are out of stock and the few i rang all said end of may they come in. Im a tad impatient lol. You've got me paranoid now though, the H100i is a suitable option?

So ive looked into how id mount the radiator in the case, it sits ON the housing in the first picture i linked and the fans screw into it from the underside. So i dont think they can be 'pull'. What are my options.. will this work? I dont know if i can or have room to screw them on the top of the radiator for a pull setup. With the airflow setup you described all air exhaisting would have to pass through here.

So definately up the pump for better flow?

Im still in beta stage of the build and i still need alot of advice, but when the time comes for the prime test (or whatever program i get recommended to use, Intel Burn?) could i keep in touch and post the results to get your advice?

Cheers for your time.

manofchalk · Apr 15, 2013

For case fans speed, really they wont matter much when it comes to individual temperatures. Their job is to get rid of hot air and supply fresh air, not directly cool the CPU/GPU.
Fan speeds when it comes to the CPU heatsink/radiator does matter, and you will want that to ramp up with temperature.

CLC = Closed Loop Cooler
True water-cooling does outperform air, but when it comes to CLC's like the Corsair Hydro series they perform similarly like mid-high end air coolers. The reason they exist is exactly that, they are the simple and easy way to get water-cooling.
You can expect the H100i to perform roughly equal to the NH-D14.

You can mount it that way, you can also mount it with the fans above the "ceiling" of the case with the screws coming down through fan and "ceiling", screwing into the rad holding it up. I suggest doing that.
Part of the reason positive airflow is said to reduce dust intake is because all the little cracks and vents of the case, air will be exhausting from them rather than dragging in dust. But yes, most of the air will make its way out through the top of the case in the way I suggest.

Yup, far as I know thats what Corsair recommend as well.

I use Prime95 myself, but it doesnt really matter. Though some swear by Intel Burn In, they don't want to contribute to the finding of Mersenne prime numbers

.
Yea go ahead, I'm here to help after all.

The Q6660 Inside · Apr 15, 2013

+1 on manofchalk's posts. Also Prime95 or the burn in test is good either way, I do use P95 much more often though. Since the H100i is almost equal or slightly better (at louder noise though) than the NH-D14. Buying the H100i however did save you from getting blood all over the motherboard (the fins on the D14 are SHARP). You can get the parts now as we are happy to help, should you question your fan setup.
Also: Keep up the pics (Particularily by the end of the build), anyways we want to stare in awe at your cable management

.

ryteklikd · Apr 16, 2013

I dont know if the H100i is able to automatically adjust its pump speed or flow or whatever, based on CPU temp? I know it comes with software. Ill look into it. For now once i complete the build ill fiquire out how to set the pump to 100% and do that.

I see what you mean with the fans.. how would i test the airflow to find which fan setup is most effective? Im still keen to try the bottom to top idea, just a bit paranoid that i could wreck something if its not effectively circulating air. Its a 3:1 ratio of intake : outake. Well 3:2 technically but the two fans are basically only on thw roof exhausting. Ill try mount the H100i as you said Manofchalk, if i have issues ill post, hope thats ok.

Ill start with Prime seeing as ive never load tested a PC, ever.. and most threads ive come across people seem to use Prime.

Ill order the PSU and Optical drive and have em by the end of the week. Just leaves me with the CPU, H100i and GPU.

Oh, and Q6600, you wait! When im close to finished ill upload you a picture especially about this cable management thing. Lol.

Thanks guys for yoiur input. Appreciated, as always.

The Q6660 Inside · Apr 16, 2013

ryteklikd :

To do all the things with the H100i, install Corsair Link, http://www.corsair.com/us/hydro-series-h100i-extreme-performance-liquid-cpu-cooler.html (read to see how to adjust the pump via the USB cable and Corsair LINK software) it is a shame they did away with the hardware buttons found on the original H80/H100. By the way, do not get Thermal Paste, as the H100i has super-high quality Shin-Etsu Thermal Paste pre applied.

ryteklikd · Apr 23, 2013

Okay so ive removed everything from the case to test fit the H100i. According to my case booklet its made to sit the a radiator ON the ceiling with fans mounting from underneath. According to the H100i installation guide the picture shows the radiator sitting under the ceiling and the fans screwing in from underneath.

From the way the radiators built.. with 8 screw holes on both sides.. one side for mounting, other side for fans.. i only have two options:

Radiator under ceiling, which means the fans MUST sit under the rad. Curious on if this will fit with the mobo. This means the fans would be push, right?

Radiator on ceiling, which means the fans MUST sit on the rad. Curious on if this will fit with the case ceiling cover. This means the fans would be pull, right?

Which of the two would you suggest more effective? Testing both to see what fits. Trying the pull first.

Note that the screw holes arent drilled right through so i cant mount it with the fan screws. One side must be used for mounting the rad and the other for mounting the fans. Pain in the ass..

Also in the H100i booklet it says quote "For the best cooling performance, we recommend mounting the fans as an air-INTAKE to your pc case". Uhhhhhhhhhh?

manofchalk · Apr 23, 2013

I would go with the pull config. Not because pull performs any better, but its easier to clean as dust builds up on the rad instead of under a fan. Also looks cleaner and doesnt require 2 sets of screws.

The H100i should have come with some long screws that go through the fans and into the rad.

You will get better cooling on whatever is being cooled in that configuration, but everything else in the case will suffer as your dumping the heat back in the case.

ryteklikd · Apr 23, 2013

Okaaaay so my bad, after a bit of playin around (it didnt fit both ways i listed above - thought i was screwed) until i clicked.. i sat the radiator under the ceiling, and put the fans above on the ceiling.. using the fan screws it fastened the radiator in place (duh!) however i feel a bit wary that its secured in place by the fans, hanging there.. lol.

So its setup in a pull setup like you recommended. Sweet.

However now i have fans to organise. I know we thought we had a plan here but im still a bit unsure. Ive got two 120s and a 140. I dont want to use the side panel cause some people say it can interfere with airflow and itd make removing the side panel for show a mission.

So theres what you suggested, intake @ front, rear, bottom. (Exhaust through the two radiator roof fans) because id have to use the 140 at the front its larger size sits it up more to the middle-front of the chasis. Tjerefore I may put the removable HDD cage back in, sit the drives in it so theyre behind the front fan instead of under it at the bottom dodging all the intake. Is this a good idea or would it obstruct airflow? Now if i put the cage back in it has a fan pivot on the back of it so i could put on a 120 and guide it towards the GPU? Leaves me with one more 120 if i did this.. bottom or rear? Rear intake or exhaust?

I know weve been through this so sorry for asking again lol but i really dont know which way to go here, ugh.

Airflow Idea, advice and suggestions wanted.

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