Yes, another question about Haswell..

Russell Copeland · Apr 22, 2013

Hi all.

Just registered to try and find proper answers from people who know more about the chips etc than I do.

I've been trying to find more information about what Haswell brings to the table that improves over what Intel have put into Ivy Bridge, aside from an upgrade to the iGPU and power management.

My current PC is as follows:

i7 950 @ stock
Asus Sabertooth X58
Corsair H70
12Gb of DDR-3 1600 Mushkin Radioactive set to 6-8-6-24
1 x MSI GTX 670 Power Edition OC
120Gb Muhskin Chronos Sata 3 SSD, 1Tb WD Cav. Black HDD
Case = currently Cosmos 1000, but will be moved back to my HAF 932.

I want to give this PC to my dad. He has a Core 2 Quad Q9650 but is stuck with a motherboard that only has 1 x16 PCI-E lane. He likes to play Kuju's Railworks which is really suffering on his machine whereas on mine it gives pretty good performance.

So far I've sold off my two old GTX 480 cards. I tried getting a cheap upgrade for my old man by getting an i7 870 but then got totally outbid on a motherboard so re-sold the 870 at a small loss. I am selling my old Q9550 and once upgraded will sell the Q9650 above, along with the motherboard, RAM and cooler.

I've been looking at buying a new PC for about 2 months now hoping that more information would actually become readily available but I can't seem to find anything other than the better iGPU and the power management.

Is there anything Haswell does that significantly improves over what Ivy Bridge will give me?

I would go Sandy Bridge E but I want to build a fast computer that doesn't suck up 130w of power.. I spend a lot of time on my PC every day and so want to cut the amount of power being used by as much as possible to allow for a better GPU purchase without going nuts.

If the iGPU and power management are the only real improvements, seeing as I won't be using the iGPU at all is it worth the wait? Both chips will be stuck to x8 x8 for SLi etc. I haven't seen anything about what the motherboards will have over the Z77 boards so again can't make a properly informed decision.

If Ivy Bridge is the answer then fine, I will go for that before the chips have disappeared and I have to resort to buying from potentially shady ebay sellers.

I look forward to your replies. Please remember to keep it simple though (and supply links if possible)

Thanks!

babernet_1 · Apr 22, 2013

Wait for the Haswell. It has about EIGHT internal voltage regulators driving each different section of the processor. You will be able to totally custom tune the processor as you wish. With external graphics, you can bring the frequency and voltage way down on the internal graphics circuit, bringing power way down, leaving more headroom to speed up the computing cores. The same is true with the Haswell's PCI-E interface, RAM interface, Caches, etc. Also the chip makes multi-threaded/core programming much easier, so look for games and other software to take advantage of this in the upcomming months.

In short, the Haswell will overclock like a beast, and by the end of the year, look for multi-thread/cores to become the norm. They may even fix the thermals, hello 6GHz.

Russell Copeland · Apr 22, 2013

That's alright if you know how to overclock. I have never overclocked, never been shown and the platitude answers of "it's easy" is rubbish. I would like to overclock, even just using the "pre-determined" speed steps but always find it doesn't work.

Danra · Apr 22, 2013

Regarding PC CPU performance Haswell will not significantly be better than Ivy Bridge.

Haswell will bring a few extra [small] PC goodies to the table, however, I did not wait for it because a higher end i5 or i7 Ivy Bridge already provides PCIe 3 and USB 3.0, which is mostly what I wanted. And, Ivy Bridge architecture is FAST. It will make your current computer feel ancient.

Intel is working its way into the low end GPU market, and is there now. Haswell will be a further PC computer and some notebook GPU improvement. However, as for overall speed for a PC Ivy Bridge is VERY fast and I did not feel it was worth the wait for Haswell, so, I built an Ivy Bridge computer.

You may find that you wish to wait, however, with the proper motherboard you can already "custom tune" higher end i5 and i7 Ivy Bridge for your PC. Many people under-volt the CPU. I have done it.

And, as to babernet's claim that it may be possible to hit 6GHz, that is simply not so, except with LN. No one with a high end air cooler or water cooler will hit 6GHz with Haswell. For most people 22nm is tricky to achieve high overclocks because of very high temperatures beyond 1.35 core volts.

Haswell's major goal is to bring much longer idle battery life for notebooks. Sorry, notebooks are not PCs.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/haswell-22nm-ultrabook-ivy-bridge-processor,13453.html

manofchalk · Apr 22, 2013

If your not interested in the better iGPU or integrated power VRM's, then I dont think there's really much you want in Haswell. Far as the PC community knows, its going to be the stock standard ~10% performance improvement we would expect with each new generation.
As has been mentioned by Danra, Haswell is looking to have a much bigger impact in the mobile space than it will on the desktop.

Russell Copeland · Apr 22, 2013

I assume that I would be right in thinking that the power management, while admirable for ultrabooks, netbooks etc it'll be wasted with the desktop computer for anyone using a pc for anything beyond an office computer.

There isn't anything else new coming to the table with Haswell is there? Makes me laugh that Ivy Bridge Enthusiast won't be out til next year when they're retiring the 1155 chipset in June. Ivy-B E should have come out either Q3/Q4 2012.. If it had I wouldn't even be asking this question.

As for cooling. I'll be be building my machine into either a Cosmos 1000 case with a modded windowed side panel (took it to a perspex cutter to have a new window made with 2 x 120mm fan intakes) or I might got for the massive NZXT Phantom 820/830 whatever in gun metal and will be using a mix of Coolermaster Sickleflows for overall airflow and a 2 x 120mm closed loop system or better, most likely the Hydro H100i, with Akasa Apache black/camo fans in push/pull.

I won't be buying a new GPU yet. I want to wait for the Nvidia 700 series. Then my dad will get my MSI 670 PE OC for SLi (he has the same GPU) and I'll go for whatever the top end will be then or, if the top end 600 series drops in price, I might go for a 690.

If there won't be any exciting new tech on the motherboards for 1150 then meh, I'll probably just buy an Ivy Bridge 3770k and done. Even though I don't overclock I still prefer the idea of an unlocked chip so that if I ever find someone local who can pop round and show me what to do, I can do it.

------------------------

Just had a look for the Ivy Bridge E chips and according to this site they'll be out in Q3 of this year.

I think I might wait then.. See what Haswell has to offer 1st and see what problems arise with it because we all know nothing ever comes out and works perfectly (anyone remember the 680i, 690i, 780i and 790i chipsets?) and then wait for the Ivy Bridge E and see if that comes with PCI-E 3 support etc.

I want to build myself a REAL hardcore machine for once.. I've always been just above the bottom rung with chips or, if I got the top chips, ended up with not so good motherboards (like having to replace the 680i £250 mobo with an £80 one)

manofchalk · Apr 22, 2013

I know you'v already criticized this bit of advice, but overclocking is easy unless you want to push the envelope. For a decent overclock on a 3570k/3770k, all you have to do is change the CPU multiplier from 34 to 42. Thats all you have to do for a 0.8Ghz overclock, the motherboard should be able to figure out voltage on its own at that frequency.

Russell Copeland · Apr 22, 2013

I didn't criticize it, I just stated that people tell you its easy and that you should do it but if you don't understand it it can be a damn expensive experiment in how to muck up your chip.

I would LOVE to overclock my 950 chip. I'd like to overclock my RAM too if it meant getting a bit more speed out of it. Nothing crazy, maybe just 200-300 MHz for the CPU.

I don't get how to work out what voltages to enter, how to even work out the figures for it let alone things like FSB strap, skew blah blah et etc

manofchalk · Apr 22, 2013

Quick tutorial on modern overclocking, you might be getting a bit confused with the older method.

CPU Frequency = Base clock X CPU multiplier.
As the frequency increases, so does voltage to keep it stable, which in turn increases the temperature.

Back in the day, the CPU multiplier was locked down. The only way to overclock the CPU was through the baseclock, which is also tied to how the RAM performs. If you raised the baseclock, you also overclocked the RAM in tandem with the CPU. Typically the CPU has far more potential to overclock than the RAM does, so it basically came down to squeezing every last bit of performance from the RAM (which is why premium RAM exists, despite offering no actual performance boost on its own) so the CPU could go higher as well. So it was a balancing act between RAM and CPU, and both had to stay stable so you also had to juggle voltages for each, and then make sure it wasn't overheating.
Overclockers got around this in a lot of interesting ways, no parts of the chip or board were sacred and it got pretty complicated.

Then AMD came out with their Black Edition processors, where they just let you access the CPU multiplier. Which meant that the RAM was no longer a factor in how far a chip could overclock. Intel quickly followed with their "K" series chips and now CPU overclocking is primarily done through multipliers. So now, its just a balance between voltage and temperature in how far a chip can overclock.
You can still overclock the RAM, now just not through the baseclock. TBH though, overclocking RAM is largely pointless. Ever since the memory controller moved onto the CPU, faster RAM just doesn't lead to any real performance difference.

Heres a guide to overclocking the Ivy Bridge chips, details the basic overclocking method (up the multiplier, boot, stress test, rinse and repeat, if it crashes, up the voltage, rinse and repeat until its too hot, back down and stress test).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCIWTX-jy9A

Its only when your pushing really large overclocks (4.6Ghz+ pretty much) does it get really complicated and you have to start messing with more complex things like PLL voltage and other things I havent even bothered figuring out yet

.
IMO, theres no real reason to go beyond 4.3Ghz.

Russell Copeland · Apr 22, 2013

Hmm sounds like they've finally started to make things easier then. What pees me off with the older stuff, like my Core 2 Quad set up and even my i7 950 set up (Asus P5Q SE PLUS and Sabertooth X58 respectively) is that the manufacturers tell you nothing about what the settings DO in the manual, they just repeat what they type on the BIOS screen.. Like that is totally helpful LOL

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Yes, another question about Haswell..

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Danra

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manofchalk

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