Bulldozer architecture - so bad it's a conspiracy?

saladstate_81

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I've been thinking about this for a while... AMD could have released Phenom III X4, X6, X8 - THREE YEARS AGO.

If they'd gone down that route and just focused on die shrinks and tweaking the K10 architecture, I'm guessing that we might have a 22nm Phenom IV X4 @ 5+Ghz stock frequency by now. Instead, AMD is going nowhere slowly* with it's fundamentally flawed new architecture (the module design means that they no longer have a hexacore processor - 'EightCore' Bulldozer/Piledriver is actually a hamstrung quad-core with AMD's equivalent of Hyper-Threading) plus the 'MOAR COARS' policy that put them about 3-5 years ahead of the market curve.

*It looks like Intel are about pull away and leave them in the dust in the OC enthusiast market, with Haswell doing 5-6Ghz with ease, on air. Please bear in mind, that whilst I'm not an AMD fanboy, I would like to be rooting for AMD... Hopefully, Steamroller and Kaveri will represent a spectacular comeback, but they're got a lot of ground to make up.

When I think about what might have been with Phenom III X4, and how badly the IPC issue affected performance, it raises suspicions in my mind - how could AMD have messed up *that* badly, unless it was in some way deliberate? I'm no expert historian on this, but wasn't Intel involved in some dirty underhand tricks back when AMD was in the ascendancy?

I wonder if it was actually the case that Intel have engaged in clandestine industrial episonage, by having double agents infiltrate AMD and obtain influential positions, in order to sabotage there business from within. To me, that seems like a plausible explanation as to why Bulldozer was such a disastrous backward step in so many ways.
 
Solution
AMD made the same mistake Intel made with the Pentium 4.

That said it's a true 8 core and has nothing to do with hyperthreading. Hyperthreading is a SOFTWARE solution... it's a vertual core. The intel fanboys love to claim hyperthreading is some sort of "full thread" solution... yet it doesn't work like that, and all it is is a schedualing gymic that might result in as much as a 20%-30% boost in performance if the program can make use of it.

The result is each hyperthreaded core is roughly equal to a 1.25 core, in the right circumstances. So a 4 core hyperthreaded i7 is roughly equal to a 5 true core processor (in apps that can use hyperthreading).

AMD's 8 core 4 module system is an 8 physical core system... this isn't...

Cazalan

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That's what most people said when the official Bulldozer reviews came out. Someone made a horrible mistake choosing the Bulldozer path over K10.5 progression. But as they say hindsight is 20/20. AMD is always under budget constraints and doesn't have the luxury Intel has of developing as many core branches.

The best correlation is probably Intel's Larrabee. They unveiled it in 2008 and cancelled it in 2010. Then it resurfaced as Xeon Phi in 2012. Intel has a deep pipeline (4-5 years) for new products, so that was an 8+ year project.
 

Cazalan

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The fallacy with this argument is the presumption that engineers don't make mistakes. Engineers make mistakes ALL THE TIME. That's why there can be 4-5 verification engineers per design engineer. One bad gate can cripple a design or even make it not work at all.
 
AMD made the same mistake Intel made with the Pentium 4.

That said it's a true 8 core and has nothing to do with hyperthreading. Hyperthreading is a SOFTWARE solution... it's a vertual core. The intel fanboys love to claim hyperthreading is some sort of "full thread" solution... yet it doesn't work like that, and all it is is a schedualing gymic that might result in as much as a 20%-30% boost in performance if the program can make use of it.

The result is each hyperthreaded core is roughly equal to a 1.25 core, in the right circumstances. So a 4 core hyperthreaded i7 is roughly equal to a 5 true core processor (in apps that can use hyperthreading).

AMD's 8 core 4 module system is an 8 physical core system... this isn't hyperthreading scheduling magic. What AMD has done is taken certain resources that a standard core usually has all to itself and shared some of them between 2 cores, creating the module. The idea was with properly timed scheduling you could safely share certain core resources allowing you to pack more cores into a smaller area, and make it more energy efficient to boot.

The problem with bulldozer is 2 fold, first of all, scheduling remains a disaster... the core modules don't work particularly well, and to improve their performance AMD lengthened the pipeline, a design concept intel tried to implement into the Pentium 4 (to generally disastrous results). The theory is sound, and lured intel in nicely 10+ years ago with the promise of a nearly unlimited ghz scaling. Unfortunately this type of gimmick also increases latencies throughout the design which of course then introduces performance bottlenecks independent of clock speed, something intel learned with the prescott... and AMD is now trying to fix with the bulldozer.

So we have a chip with terrible latencies throughout, poor scheduling preventing the cores to function properly and efficiency, a larger nm size because global foundries sucks, and the longer pipeline introducing all sorts of power and heat inefficiencies resulting in a lot worse actual performance then i'm sure the engineering team ever imagined was possible.

The theory is quite clever, the implementation sucks. Its believed that steamroller should fix most of the remaining structural problems with the original bulldozer design, including fixing the core modules so that they work properly. If true it should represent a pretty significant improvement in chip performance. the problem is they've lost so much time screwing around with the problems with bulldozer its doubtful even if they fix all the problems and give it a sizable boost in performance that a single core of the steamroller chip will even equal a 4 year old first generation lga 1156 core.

they're falling so far behind thanks to this mess up it will take a minor miracle to remain relevant much longer in the desktop market.
 
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elemein

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There's tons of things in the OP that aren't right, though this simple statement is the wrongest one.

22nm? AMD?

AMD doesn't have the budget to make their own foundries for 22 nm. They're restricted by what Global Foundries can produce. Even today, Global Foundries hasn't the facilities to produce 22nm lithographies for AMD.
 
global foundries does not suck dude they make chips for everyone... AMD, Broadcom, Qualcomm, and STMicroelectronics. so no they don't suck but it appears the current AMD engineers do this time around.

So AMD doesn't have the mega billions Intel has but they do ok.

I think that the potential for bulldozer in the long run is greater than the older phenom with multicore programming picking up they must have thought it was a good idea.
 

elemein

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Neither statement is really true.

Global Foundries is a very, very good producer of chips. Just because they can't produce 22nm and smaller litographies doesn't make them "suck." What they do very, very well is create small lithographies (down to 28nm nowadays.), very reliably and cheaply. They're good at what they do. They aren't cutting edge; they're "good ol' Global Foundries."

AMD Engineers didn't really mess up. Their marketing team did.

Bulldozer is a great CPU in a server environment. Nothing else. Piledriver was released very shortly afterwards. A better idea would be to withhold BOTH the Bulldozer and Piledriver architecture until both were ready to be released simultaneously. Bulldozer would be popped into the server environment and Piledriver into the consumer environment.

Everyone knows Piledriver is a very good architecture.

I still use a Phenom II based chip. The AMD A8-3520M, and I really do like it, a lot better then any Bulldozer or Piledriver CPU, as my ideals of what a good CPU is, are in place with the K10 architecture. Unfortunately, instruction and thread parallelism is the future, and Steamroller will shine shortly.
 


Well in all fairness I suck at spelling and the first statement is missing a "not"
And as much as I can agree with you that the marketing team did the damage by talking up the line of chips that is the job they do much the same as the engineers are supposed to design a fast chip that can at least outperform the previous generation.
 

elemein

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While you make a point, that's not always the case.

Remember the Pentium D? It was slower for most tasks than the P4 because most tasks were single threaded. It was a step down in performance, but it was a big paradigm shift from single cores to dual cores. It was necessary.

AMD has been with the exact same sort of architectures for a long, long time. Phenom and Athlon and the previous similar Turion's and Sempron's and such have been around for a long, long time. It's a paradigm shift, a necessary one.

New consoles will have 8-cores. Let's see what happens.
 


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elemein

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Yeah... I don't get it. Gonna need to give me a lil more info.
 

saladstate_81

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By the way, regarding the potential of K10 architecture with smaller manufacturing processes - I have a 45nm Athlon II X2 280 running at 4.3Ghz... 59w TDP, 1.55v v-core, 31-34C idle, 48C under full load.

Since most programs/software still utilize only 1-2 hardware threads, how is this not the best all-round AMD processor available today? Not to mention the power comsumption.

4.4Ghz CPU-Z validation - http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=2810309

YouTube 'review' (needs 720p, fullscreen) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRQo2X2S038