New HTPC build w/ mid-level gaming - talk me out of a Mac Mini

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danglading

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I'm looking to build a new HTPC for my living room. This will be a replacement for my current setup, which is/was:

- The xbox media extender connected to my gaming PC in the office and streaming Amazon Prime content
- Apple TV streaming my video library from the gaming PC in the office and streaming Netflix content.
- The gaming PC in the office running WMC using my HDHomerun tuner and hosting my video library.

The xbox recently gave me the red-ring-of-death middle finger, so I figured now is a good time to make the jump to a dedicated HTPC. As long as I'm connecting a computer to my TV, I might as well give it some gaming capability.

I've been building my own boxes for over a decade, but haven't done a ton of homework recently. I've got little-to-no intel on the current state of small size, quiet, efficient, builds. I'm strongly considering the Mac Mini, from the standpoint of "it's done, it works, it's pretty, it will make my wife happy", but I know in my heart I can meet or exceed everything the Mac Mini can do (except for probably size and prettiness) at a better price by going the PC route. Rather than spend the next few days/weeks reading every review, build, and test I can find, I'd rather throw myself on the mercy of the experts here.

So, without further ado, I give you, the template:

Approximate Purchase Date: This week/ASAP

Budget Range: ~$500-700. It should beat the Mac Mini price when all add-ons are considered. Cheaper is better.

System Usage from Most to Least Important: Recording/watching DVR'd content (either WMC or XBMC), watching movies (personal collection stored on machine or Redbox rentals), streaming content from Netflix/Amazon Prime, gaming

Are you buying a monitor: No. I will be connecting via HDMI to my existing 42" LCD HDTV.

Parts to Upgrade: All; new build.

Do you need to buy OS: Yes. Planning to purchase Windows 7 with educational discount connection.

Preferred Website(s) for Parts: newegg.com or amazon.com; I can be flexible

Location: Rochester, NY, USA

Parts Preferences: Best value proposition.

Overclocking: No/Maybe. Not a critical factor, but I might get bored enough to give it a whirl at some point.

SLI or Crossfire: No preference

Your Monitor Resolution: 42" 1080p HDTV

Additional Comments: I would like it to run quietly. Not concerned with top-end graphic settings on gaming, but it should be fun to play on the big screen. The case should fit in my media center; something vaguely the size of the old white xbox 360 will work, but I've got a little wiggle room in all directions. It needs to be able to interface with my Logitech Harmony One remote, either via RF or IR.

And Most Importantly, Why Are You Upgrading: See above comments on my xbox 360 giving up the ghost.

Edit: Added requirement to interface with remote, under Additional Comments.
 
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Shadowblade2652

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PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i3-3220 3.3GHz Dual-Core Processor ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock B75M-ITX Mini ITX LGA1155 Motherboard ($89.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Patriot Signature 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($58.49 @ Amazon)
Storage: Kingston SSDNow V300 Series 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($89.99 @ Microcenter)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($69.99 @ Microcenter)
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 7790 1GB Video Card ($141.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: BitFenix Prodigy (White) Mini ITX Tower Case ($59.99 @ Microcenter)
Power Supply: Corsair Builder 500W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V Power Supply ($29.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $680.41
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-07-02 14:22 EDT-0400)
 
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danglading

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Shadowblade: I'll admit that I don't know the difference between the various Mini or Micro sizes. =) It should be small sized, however; unobtrusive enough to fit in my media cabinet and not make my wife twitch when she looks at it.

Also, and I'll edit this into the original message: It will ideally have a receiver to interface with my Logitech Harmony One remote. RF is better than IR, but IR is better than a kick in the teeth.

Thanks!

 
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Shadowblade2652

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Or you could ditch the SSD and do this:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($189.99 @ Microcenter)
Motherboard: ASRock B75M-ITX Mini ITX LGA1155 Motherboard ($89.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Patriot Signature 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($58.49 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($69.99 @ Microcenter)
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 7790 1GB Video Card ($141.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: BitFenix Prodigy (White) Mini ITX Tower Case ($59.99 @ Microcenter)
Power Supply: Corsair Builder 500W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V Power Supply ($29.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $670.42
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-07-02 14:23 EDT-0400)
 
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danglading

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Thanks for the thoughts, Shadowblade. Some considerations that come to mind:

1. Are there alternatives to the video card that come reasonably close in terms of price/performance, but are smaller enough to give more flexibility on the case? I've used the GTX 650 Ti, which is a reasonably performing video card in a pretty small package.
2. Thoughts on keyboard/mouse/trackpad interface? I'm thinking of something wireless that will allow the "kick-back-on-the-couch" interface.
3. I like the BitFenix case, but it might be too tall for the space I have. I'll have to measure to be sure. Maybe I can lay it on it's side...
4. I'll need an optical drive, for Redbox nights.
5. Is there a huge difference between the i3 an the i5 you recommended? I might want to trim the price a bit, and will likely skip the SSD (this will not be rebooted often, not too concerned about boot/loading times), so the processor selection might be an easy way to save a few bucks.

Thanks again for your ideas!
 
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Shadowblade2652

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The i5 allows more upgrading the GPU because it won't bottleneck nearly as much as the i3.
Also, for a discrete GPU a radeon 7770 would be fine right now for about $120.
For a trackpad/mouse/keyboard...idk i thought you had a remote ._. just buy a logitech/razer gaming mouse for gaming...

Ask your wife about the Fractal Design Core 1000? It's very simple and would look okay sitting next to your TV.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i3-3220 3.3GHz Dual-Core Processor ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock B75M-ITX Mini ITX LGA1155 Motherboard ($89.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Patriot Signature 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($58.49 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($54.49 @ Outlet PC)
Video Card: Gigabyte Radeon HD 7770 GHz Edition 1GB Video Card ($107.99 @ Microcenter)
Case: BitFenix Prodigy (White) Mini ITX Tower Case ($59.99 @ Microcenter)
Power Supply: Corsair Builder 500W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V Power Supply ($29.99 @ Newegg)
Optical Drive: Lite-On iHAS124-04 DVD/CD Writer ($14.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $545.92
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-07-02 15:34 EDT-0400)
 
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ingtar33

ingtar33

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are you kidding, $700 for an i3 when the mini-mac is $600 and sports a mobile i7? I would get the mini-mac over that build. Furthermore, the prodigy is like 5 times bigger then the xbox... OP was quite clear he wanted something about the same size. I think OP can do much better then that.

OK, the mac-mini starts at $600 with an ivy bridge i7 mobile cpu... hd 4000 graphics 4gb of ram and 500 gb 5400 rpm slim hard drive.

here is my shot to best that in spades.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: AMD A10-5700 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($119.99 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: MSI FM2-A75IA-E53 Mini ITX FM2 Motherboard ($89.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Mushkin Essentials 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($36.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Mushkin Chronos 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($99.99 @ NCIX US)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($124.32 @ Amazon)
Case: Inwin IW-BP655.300TBL Mini ITX Desktop Case w/300W Power Supply ($64.98 @ Newegg)
Optical Drive: LG UH12NS29 Blu-Ray Reader, DVD/CD Writer ($49.98 @ Outlet PC)
Keyboard: Logitech Wireless Combo MK260 Wireless Standard Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($34.99 @ Amazon)
Other: Rosewill RHRC-11001 Windows Vista/Window7 MCE/Windows 8 MCE Infrared Remote Control with Learning Function ($24.99)
Total: $646.22
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-07-02 15:31 EDT-0400)

that build should run around a moble i7, be about the same size as an xbox, has a bluray dvd player, remote control and wireless keyboard/mouse (feel free to drop those peripherals if you're not interested, frankly, i'd probably drop the wireless keyboard. don't really need it)... throw in the included ssd, wireless adaptor, and 3TB of storage and this is really one heck of a media center.

I was tempted to give you more ram, but frankly, you won't need it. Really, no one truly needs more then 4gb of ram. the only reason 8gb became the "thing" was because ram got insanely cheap for a while. now that it's expensive again, people have sorta forgotten you don't really need 8gb of ram. (i have 8gb and i don't think i've ever used more then 3)
 
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tallywhacker

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Spend the extra on an asus (or msi as above) board if possible, asrock are not as good, cheaper parts and it shows. Don't skimp on a mainboard, you get what you pay for (comparatively speaking) with engineering.

The Fractal and Lian Li cases are also better looking to the bitfenix imho, very sleek. The bitfenix looks like a 'chav' case, the kind of thing you would find in a modded vauxhall corsa with neon lights on it.

Also keep tdp in mind with chip choice for a small build, the APU's are a good TDP and great MHz/W.

Out of those 2 i would go for ingtar's build, far better quality alone if not anything else. I am running an A8, very cool and powerful in reality, the turbo core feature is great on them. The A10's are exceptional. If graphical prowess is not enough on the A10 you can always get a dedicated card in the future, this would have extra hidden benefits for memory management and processing power too as an apu can pool it's unused resources.

I prefer these cases though, not the smallest but very slick:
http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-q25/
or for extra cooling: http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-q18/

 
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Shadowblade2652

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The OP stated he would like to play games as well :)
Because of that I added a discrete gpu, something a mac mini can't do.
How about this? The Core 1000 Case will look nice as it's very minimalist.
Your APU isn't the best thing to use, a dedicated discrete GPU will do just fine.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i3-3220 3.3GHz Dual-Core Processor ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock B75M-DGS R2.0 Micro ATX LGA1155 Motherboard ($49.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Patriot Signature 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($58.49 @ Amazon)
Storage: Samsung 840 Series 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($94.99 @ NCIX US)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($89.98 @ Amazon)
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 7770 GHz Edition 1GB Video Card ($100.38 @ Newegg)
Case: Fractal Design Core 1000 USB 3.0 MicroATX Mid Tower Case ($39.99 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: Corsair Builder 430W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V Power Supply ($24.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $603.80
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-07-02 16:40 EDT-0400)

This also allows you to upgrade to the i7 Ivy Bridge processors later if you choose. The GPU is a very good price/performance ratio card. 120 GBs is enough for an SSD to hold your OS and your programs (Office, Photoshop, Games), and 2TB is enough for all your movies. If you want a disc drive they are like $15 so you can add that if you want. I would not recommend overclocking this as it is not an unlocked processor.

;)
 
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tallywhacker

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The OP would be better upgrading to a dedicated card in a PCI-E x16 slot in the future anyhow if an APU didn't cut it. A discreet GPU is no major improvement over an APU, if at all, and a complete waste if the OP upgrades to a dedicated card in the future. It can work with crossfire with a dedicated ATI card or otherwise it's resources can be pooled for memory management or extra processing power. They are great, especially for the cost.

FYI the amd apu's are exceptional if you want an all in one unit, very power efficient for their performance, performance per watt is where it is at for compact devices, that is what they where designed for, a good trait for an mITX / mATX build. Some of the A and E series apus offer quad core chips with a 25 W TDP and that is an overquote, even under load they perform better in reality, Intel also under quote their power usage and overstate their performance. For example the n2800 atom, twice the threads, same frequency and half the TDP of the amd e450, yet in practice under load uses more power and performs worse. I cant speak for the i3, but i don't see why they would be honest for one chip.

I just cant get on board with saying a company that historically lies about figures is superior without evidence, especially when i look at the quality of the intel boards i have kicking about. The i3 may be superior, but i would like to see some benchmark figures with one compared to a comparative APU before i embrace that suggestion. And when i say comparative i mean highest frequency of the lowest TDP category chips of both classes, which means since you stated apu's both the a and e series, in the format of performance per watt since we are talking efficiency. Not an attack at you, purely distrust of intel based on iro 20 years of hearing their claims.

And shadow, to balance my heavy criticism i must commend your efforts for actually being kind enough to do the leg work for the OP.

Tally ~
 
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Shadowblade2652

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I just went with the cheapest board possible :p It was a B75 chipset, which is why I picked it. The APUs are not as powerful as a dedicated GPU + CPU. Intel processors are much better performance than AMD processors, and tbh the integrated graphics isn't as crappy as everyone says it is.

Just saying, the OP wanted to build a system that could also play games. APUs don't really handle 1080p as well as the 7770 GHz edition will. And @tallywacker, The cases you suggested look like speakers. Perhaps you could buy a silver/black speaker system and keep that in the corner and wire it to the TV. Also, you may want to invest in an xbox 360 controller as then you'll be happier with sitting on the couch. (The lian-li case looks perfect as it's like the bitfenix except more streamlined and designed for HTPCs)
 
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tallywhacker

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I just went with the cheapest board possible It was a B75 chipset, which is why I picked it. The APUs are not as powerful as a dedicated GPU + CPU
Click to expand...

I edited my post to clarify, ypur new posts only came up after i refreshed sorry! The relevant part:
The OP would be better upgrading to a dedicated card in a PCI-E x16 slot in the future anyhow if an APU didn't cut it. A discreet GPU is no major improvement over an APU, if at all, and a complete waste if the OP upgrades to a dedicated card in the future. It can work with crossfire with a dedicated ATI card or otherwise it's resources can be pooled for memory management or extra processing power. They are great, especially for the cost.
Click to expand...

PS: My A8 laptop minces 1080p.... Doesn't bat an eyelid.
 
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tallywhacker

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False, there are just restrictions:
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/372442-33-crossfire-7660d-discrete-card

I pulled that up off the first link on a google search for "7660d apu crossfire"

Here have a video too should you have any further doubt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huZhikS-Meg

Before you knock the quality it is recorded on a phone.

I mean come on, i get that you have a disliking for the APU for whatever reason after the statement you made earlier which was also non-factual, but at least try.
 
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Shadowblade2652

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If you read the link that you gave with the I'm feeling lucky search, you'd notice that it said the 7660D in the APU can only be in hybrid crossfire with the 6670 or northern islands cards. The cards you can use are the 6570 and the 6670. the A6 and the A4 can use the 6570 and the 6470.
 
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tallywhacker

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Hence why i wrote:

False, there are just restrictions:
Click to expand...
:)
 
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