Trying to decide on GPU for a small Home Theater PC

itomeshi

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I recently decided to build a small HTPC / Steam Box for the living room. So far, component wise, I have:

Case: InWin BP655 w/300w PSU (Newegg page is wrong - it's 300w!)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z77N-WIFI
Processor: i3-3245 (with HD Graphics 4000) w/ no overclock, stock cooler (considering upgrading it, but not sure yet)

My concern is that the HD Graphics is just going to be slightly under-powered for what I want to do with it:
- WoW (not raiding, but dailies, random dungeons, etc.)
- Steam games (probably no Crysis, but not sure what all I'd end up playing)
- Netflix/Hulu/XBMC

I'd like to do 1080p whenever possible with decent graphics settings. I'm not talking ultra everything with 8xAA, but I also don't want to be playing an N64. :)
My main limitations right now, therefore, are that I have a low-profile slot, it's likely only one slot wide (so no double-high coolers, even if they only take one 'slot'), no PCI-E power connector and trying to keep price down.

On the very high end, I see the Radeon 7750:
Sapphire 7750 for $100 after MIR
VisionTek 7750 for $140

I prefer NVidia generally - better drivers and experience, personally - but I don't see anything spectacular there. The GeForce GT 640 isn't bad:
ASUS GT 640 for $80 after MIR

I've seen that the 7750 is typically better on performance - http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_GT_640/28.html

I'm also considering Radeon 6670 and 6570s. I can find them for $60 and $40, respectively. 6670 seems on par with the GT 640. Not sure if these (6570 especially, but the 6670 and GT 640) are really a decent improvement over the IGP.

I would love to keep the cost lower, but I'm also not huge on sacrificing power here. I'm half tempted to hold off for now with the intent to wait for the Radeon 7000 and GeForce 700 series to flesh out a bit.

Any thoughts? Am I underestimating the IGP? Is the Sapphire Radeon worth grabbing? Is my preference for NVidia drastically misplaced? Am I going to have major issues with heat in this small case or over-taxing the PSU?
 
Solution
personally i think an and a10-5800k/a10-6800k is a great option for a HTPC, just find a mini-itx motherboard that is known to support 2133mhz ram with those processors.

the other option is the sapphire low profile 7750 and an intel pentium g2020(or whatever cpu is the best bang for buck.

the intel/7750 option will have a bit more power, about 25% at least, but at the cost of more noise and heat, and will cost about 10-15% more too.

i personally think that a mini-itx case that offers a full size optical slot for an inexpensive($25-35) bluray drive is a must for any modern HTPC.


Make no mistake: Intel GPUs still suck.

The HD4000 gets a measly 464 passmark points.
The 7750 gets 1630 and the GT640 gets 1301
 

Fox_

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Haha exactly what I was about to say.
 

itomeshi

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Hmmm. You're absolutely right. That's annoying, but luckily, I picked a case with a standardized power supply (TFX), so I can upgrade it if/when the need arises.

Looks like before I consider a card, I'll need to stick it on my UPS that tracks drain. Still, the i3-3245 is relatively low power - 55w, IIRC. Combined with an SSD, a mobo that's relatively feature-rich, and the fact that I think you can only pull 75w or so from a PCI-E slot - anything higher is typically too much for the board.

Thanks for the warning!
 

itomeshi

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I will keep that in mind. Nice to at least see some real-world results.

 

itomeshi

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Out of curiosity, where are you pulling your numbers from? I'm assuming, given that it's PassMark, you're referring to http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/index.php.

I've been looking at NotebookCheck and FutureMark, myself.

FutureMark
HD 4000: 3760
GT 640: 2170
7750: 2980
6670: 2010
6570: 1480

There are multiple problems with these tests - Passmark (PerformanceTest), Futurmark (3DMark), and NotebookCheck's as well:
- They aren't well-controlled for CPU, etc.
- They are synthetic tests.
- They are not necessarily on recent driver versions.
- For Passmark and Futuremark, they are from user submissions, meaning there could be config issues (old drivers, bad drivers, u_gonna_squeal's memory issue)

As an example of driver versions, check out:
http://semiaccurate.com/2013/04/15/putting-intels-new-hd-4000-drivers-to-the-test/
The April 2013 drivers are a 5-10% across the board performance improvement on the HD 4000.

I agree that the Intel HD 4000 is probably not good enough for 1080p on any game that is at all demanding. However, 'lol intel sucks b/c their fake game number is low' isn't necessarily very useful.

I'd really love some feedback on WoW performance, as that's where I spend most of my gaming time (eyes glazed over, drooling, must... farm... more...). That being said, any real-world experience (not numbers from a webpage) is good to know.
 

itomeshi

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Finally have the build up and running. I don't have my ideal RAM in there - had a stick that tested bad. However, with some spare DDR3-1333 RAM I had, even with 1GB devoted to it and the most recent drivers, 720p is even choppy.

Good news is, the PSU in the case I got *IS* 300w. I thought the model number BP655.300TB3L meant it was 300w. Turns out, it is - I had thought so because I had originally found the case on Amazon. Oddly, even the manufacturer's site is incorrect on this, but the newegg comments and the sticker on the PSU back me up. This means I have a bit of breathing room, though given that it's an offbrand I still probably don't want to push it too hard. (For example, as tempting as it is, I probably wouldn't get anywhere with a Molex to PCI-E power adapter.

On the other hand, looking at the case in person, I'm definitely limited to about 1.2x slot height. Anything above that will not fit or at least touch the case.

I'm actually a bit bummed - my laptop has a Geforce 650m, which will beat anything I can fit in this case and PSU!



Right. That's the rub - I want to keep this build small, and I'm really happy with the case I have. I know that almost sub-$100 graphics cards are just not an upgrade at all. The GT 640 and 7750 are the only ones that fit and provide any breathing room in terms of performance.

I was lucky in that I could boost the VRAM to 1GB right off the bat. However, as I mentioned, I'm using my 'emergency' RAM at the moment, which is 1333 and bad timings (we're talking no XMP, 1333, 11-11-11-28). I know that the difference there is significant; graphics requires fast RAM, and the delta from GDDR5 from 1333-11-11-11-28 and from 1600-9-9-9-24? is quite different. I think the story will change, at least a little bit, once I get better RAM in there.

That being said, the HD 4000 is only worth using if it does what I need. On WoW, in a relatively slow outdoor area with moderate settings (2xAA, no multisampling, Fair textures/shadows/liquids, 720p, etc.), I was reasonably solid at 40-50 FPS. The game is not pretty, but it's playable, even for dungeons or light raiding.

I think I need to reserve judgement until I get better RAM. I really fear that's holding me back at the moment. I'm also a bit concerned that it's easy to say I need beefier video when in fact it's just that the i3-3245 isn't all that beefy itself.
 

itomeshi

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I assume you mean the BLCK, since the i3 has a locked multiplier. Yeah, I can boost the BCLK - but that sounds like a bad idea for a small HTPC case.

In terms of overclocking the iGPU - I tried a small one today (1150 vs. 1050), and didn't see much improvement. Took a look around, found http://semiaccurate.com/2012/04/23/overclocking-intels-hd-4000/ - and again, it makes sense if I'm memory bandwidth limited.

I will take a look at BCLK boosting, but I'm going to need to find a good SMALL cooler then. I'm thinking Noctua.
 

itomeshi

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I'll have to think about that. I was hoping to keep this thing fairly stock, but it's increasingly looking impossible.



I had noticed this card - I'm concerned it might be too big for my case, however, as that heatsink looks like it's nearly one extra slot in height. I'll have to do some image manipulation and/or math tonight to see if it will fit. Even if it does, there would be no room for airflow between the cooler and the side of the case (or, potentially even worse, they could contact).

I'm curious though - why would PCI-E 3.0 be a boon here? I don't think I'd be bandwidth limited on graphics cards at this tier.
 

itomeshi

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Yup - that's the Sapphire 7750 in my original post. It's the best I've seen in price, and seems to be the sweet spot for price/performance while staying in my size and power requirements. I'm not fond of the mini-HDMI, but that's a minor quibble.

All of the other low-profile 7750s are much more expensive, and I'm not sure why.
 
personally i think an and a10-5800k/a10-6800k is a great option for a HTPC, just find a mini-itx motherboard that is known to support 2133mhz ram with those processors.

the other option is the sapphire low profile 7750 and an intel pentium g2020(or whatever cpu is the best bang for buck.

the intel/7750 option will have a bit more power, about 25% at least, but at the cost of more noise and heat, and will cost about 10-15% more too.

i personally think that a mini-itx case that offers a full size optical slot for an inexpensive($25-35) bluray drive is a must for any modern HTPC.
 
Solution

itomeshi

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Code:


I debated the A10. In the end, I decided against it because it lacked a clear upgrade path. I understand that Haswell is wholly incompatible with this MB; that said, I have other LGA 1155 parts I can mix/match with (my desktop, my girlfriend's desktop, a few friends' PCs, my home server, etc.) Also, the A10's TDP is 100w - for a HTPC, that starts to make a dedicated GPU a dicey proposition.

The Pentium G2020 is not a bad chip. I went with the i3-3245 mostly due to a combo deal and wanting a bit more CPU under the hood. That said, if I was doing this again, I might try an A10 with no card.

I'm really surprised by how limited the options are. Not in terms of raw performance - the 7750 or GT 650 is about the top end of an HTPC build - but how few low profile cards there are. I have a spreadsheet of various cards, and in theory, I have quite a few to choose from. In practice, the market seems flooded with Radeon 5450/6450 and GeForce 210/420/610/620. I'm to the point where I'm digging through manufacturer sites trying to find a couple more card models. It makes it hard to make a comfortable decision.

My case does have a full-size drive bay; that said, I'm not sure I'm going to add a drive. I have a PS3, so Bluray is covered there. What I'm really after is a first-class streaming video experience and access to WoW and my Steam games. The optical drive is nice, but I'm actually debating using it as an SSD dock or something. If slim optical drives ever get easier to find, I feel something like this drive bay is a good option for utilizing the space. That being said? I don't find myself watching that many Blurays, either - perhaps a USB Bluray drive is a better option.

I'm leaning heavily toward that Sapphire 7750. It's not perfect, but it gets me to 'good gaming' without completely breaking the bank. I just really wish there were more options - not just a couple more 7750s that are $30 more and no stronger.
 

itomeshi

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That's a fair point - just because I'm not continuously bandwidth capped doesn't mean there wouldn't be occasional delay.
 

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