Need Advice on Home Network Setup

duff33 · Jul 26, 2013

Hello,

I was looking for advice on a home network setup. We moved in with our inlaws (waiting on our house to be built) and I've been tasked with setting up the home network.

Here is the situation I have walked into. They have COX Cable and the initial setup uses a Netgear CG3000D Modem/Router (DOCSIS 3.0 11-N Data Gateway). They felt there was 'poor reception' and went out and purchased an ASUS RT-A66R Dual Band Gigabit Router. I was wondering if I can/should use both of these because I have no experience settings up two routers.

I tried to add in background detail based on some of the stickys in the forum.

1. Your aim or achievement of the network (in order)
-Need to provide stable wireless streaming to two desktop (the rooms where they are kept do not have LAN jacks)
-provide stable wireless streaming to an IPAD and typically one laptop
-provide wireless connection to up to 3 phones
2. The main use of the network
-Need to provide stable wireless streaming to two desktops (the rooms where they are kept do not have LAN jacks)
3. The features you are critical of in the networking (range, speed etc)
-The majority of devices are in are in close proximity, however will be located on seperate floors. Everything is probably with in a 50 foot radius
4. How many devices in the house
-2 Wireless Desktops - HD Streaming
-1 Wired Desktop
-2 Wireless Laptops
-1 iPad
-3 phones

Please let me know if you need any additional information. I'm mainly looking for a high level suggestion on how to proceed and I should be able to able to pickup the rest from the site.

lostsurfer · Jul 26, 2013

Well Duff, this looks like a fun one. If coverage is an issue with the router/modem in one you can always login to the device under the router settings and change the broadcast channel to 11, which is the highest range that it will transmit at. Then using a laptop do a before and after to see if coverage will surfice. If not I would run a networking cable from your modem/router to the Asus rt that is placed in a part of the house that gets little to no reception (i.e-dead zone). You of course would have to run the cable to that location and could do so under carpet, around the floor board, through the wall etc. If there is an option to turn of the router feature of the router/modem then you could do that and use the ASUS rt, you don't want to run to wireless routers next to each other because even though they might broadcast on different channels they will interfear with each other.

You can always move the router/modem, if it's close to windows or glass doors move it away from them as the signal will not bouce off of them and to other parts of the house. Think of the wireless signal like a radar, move it to a location where the signal has room to amplify and spread out (a living room would be good, closet would be bad)

dbhosttexas · Jul 26, 2013

Not too sure about Cox cable, but you are likely better off getting Cox to swap that modem / router for just a modem. Then setup the Asus router as normal and have a nice day...

Place the router as centrally as physically possible for your best WiFi reception, and just realize that WiFi has a mess of limitations based on the nature of radio technology.

For what it is worth, I have a MUCH more complex network with a lower end router than that, a Buffalo WZR-600DHP (n600 dual band), and a Zoom 5341J DOCSIS 3.0 modem. I typically have the following on my WiFi...

3 Android phones.
1 iPhone
2 Tablets
DirecTV Cinema Connector
3 Wireless printers
2 laptops
1 WiFi enabled CNC router (woodworking tool in my shop)
3 WiFi streaming media players.

I have my home office somewhat centrally located in the house, with the router as close to the middle of the house as I could get it.

With everything set up and running right with no other networks blocking me, I get 150+ Mbps throughput, smooth streaming on everything...

Some key things I did that you need to do...

#1. Anything that is doing Wireless G, upgrade to Wireless N. Your WiFi will only go as fast as your slowest client can go minus overhead for interference etc... That means if those desktops, laptop etc... are using Wireless G, upgrade them to N adapters. If they cannot be updated, then replace with devices with faster WiFi, or just take them off your network.
#2. Use a tool like inSSIDer to see what networks are running on what channel. Set your router to operate on an open channel/ Preferably without adjacent channel traffic.
#3. Minimize electrical interference near the router, and the clients. Electric motors, microwaves, blenders etc... all mess up WiFi signals, and the WiFi either slows down to a crawl, or stops completely.
#4. Assuming everyone is willing to be onboard with this, things like desktops, media players, and gaming consoles, things that don't move often, if ever, should be wired. Like a road, the less traffic is on the WiFi, the faster it will operate. Wired ethernet is FAR more forgiving to LAN traffic as most routers and switches use non blocking technologies, WiFi is not capable of such traffic management / isolation.

bill001g · Jul 26, 2013

Parts of the above answer a correct and parts are outright wrong. Moving the asus remotely and running it as a AP is a correct design that will improve coverage.

The channel number does not affect the range. The range is primarily affected by the output power allowed by the government. All the channels in the 2.4 band have the same legal output power. What is most important in choosing the channel is to ensure it is not used by a neighbor or other equipment in your house. Things like baby monitors and some cordless phones use the same frequency. Now the part I suspect causes the confusion is the 5g band does have different power outputs based on the channel selected and even worse it will not allow certain channels to be used if it detect weather radar on that channel. The 5g band also is more easily blocked by walls. This is good and bad since your exterior walls will block interfering neighbors better but your interior walls and floors will also block some of it.

Putting 2 AP at the same exact location on different channel groups is done all the time. As long as you select no overlapping groups Ie 1,6,11 for your channels there will be no issues. In a commercial installation in is very common to use a AP that has 3 radios in it and put it on all three channel groups. This allows more total uses to use the AP.

So you best bet it to place the asus device remote from the main router to provide better coverage for the other area. You want to run the asus as a AP with the routing disabled. Next assign the main router say channel 1 and the asus channel 6,11 (note the asus can use wide channels so it actually uses 2 channel groups not just 1). Now if at all possible i would lock the asus to support N devices only. This means any old G devices would need to be able receive the signal from the cable router. Also you want to enable the 5g support on the asus router. This is what give the 802.11ac. If any your devices are also dual band they can use the 5g band which leaves more bandwidth on the 2.4 for other devices.

dbhosttexas · Jul 31, 2013

bill001g :

bill001g, how on earth did you come to the conclusion that I was asserting that channel usage / selection had any impact on range? I was talking about transfer speed which is without a doubt impacted by channel congestion.

But since you brought it up, a WiFi connection is not just the radio signal, which range is impacted by many factors, not just the transmission power as restricted by FCC regulations, there are antenna designs and locations that have an impact, ground planes that have an impact, and in theory even Sky Wave propogation, but I digress, the most important thing is the radio signal must be understood, at sustainable speeds at both transceivers to be effective, so yes, channel congestion can be demonstrated to have an effect on range. If you are old enough to remember the CB Radio craze back in the 70s and 80s, think of it like this, everyone was regulated to something like 4 watts output power, but if everyone is on channel 6 trying to talk all at once, only the stations closest to each other have any chance of understanding each other, and even then, it is a slim one at that... WiFi really isn't all that much different when you boil it down to basics... Using that same CB Radio analogy if you put the antenna in a structure, with wiring, electrical interference, Microwave ovens, etc... you would be lucky to hear the guy down the street...

Yes I know digital data transmission is designed to be more fault tolerant etc... but it still is basically manipulating a carrier wave using either frequency, or amplitude modulation to send the data over the carrier. As such it is prone to the same interference.

Beachnative · Jul 31, 2013

dbhosttexas :

Not so sure about #1 so I had to look it up...it can cause an N network to slow down but not to the slowest speed...now B is another story.......

Sean Adams recently met with Rick Bahr, VP of engineering at Atheros, and was able to get clarity on a few of the questions that frequently come up here about wireless performance.

Q: Does the mere presence of an 802.11B device slow down an otherwise all-G or all-N network? A: YES This is of course already well known, although the exact implications are often misunderstood. The presence of an 802.11B device on an G or N network causes the newer devices to have to resort to some kludgy behavior to make sure that the B devices don't transmit when the G/N devices are using the airwaves, and to make sure that both the B and G/N devices can see things like beacon packets.

The exact impact on throughput is hard to estimate generally, but it will NOT "slow the whole network to 802.11B" as is often stated. There is however a significant slowdown imposed by the mere presence of a B device, even when it is not active. We (Slim) did some testing of this a couple years ago and found that usually the throughput between the G devices dropped by 30-50% (eg from 20Mbps to 10Mbps), but not nearly as low as the speed of a B-only network (5Mbps in the same environment). The theoretical maximum throughput on 802.11g is 23 Mbps without any B devices associated, and 14Mbps with.

So upgrading any 802.11B devices on your network will most definitely improve the throughput of your wireless SB3 or Transporter, along with any other G or N devices.

The above is not really new information but it was nice to get an authoritative answer that agreed with what we've found in practice. However the next answer is more interesting and contradicts some oft-stated myths that were a holdover from the 802.11B issue.

Q: Will 802.11G devices slow down an all-N network?

A: NO, except insofar as the air-time that they take when active will be at the G throughput level as opposed to the N level. I.e. the devices still each communicate at their optimal rate in each time slice.

Unlike in the 802.11B backward compatibility mode, G devices do not impose any performance-degrading behavior on N devices in order for them to be backward compatible. 802.11g devices are able to recognize the 802.11n preamble, and they play nicely in terms of knowing when one or the other is trying to transmit. The preamble tells which modulation scheme will be used, so the N devices can speak N, while G devices can speak G. They don't have to resort to "Esperanto" as with B in order to cooperate. This means that when the G device is associated but not active, it has no impact at all. When the G devices are active they will consume air time roughly in proportion to the amount of data being transferred. This air time would of course be at the G rate as opposed to the N rate, so in the event that the airwaves are fully saturated (eg by a local file transfer), there would be some reduction in the total Mbps achievable by all devices collectively, but there is no penalty for having the G devices associated.
Confusingly, this appears to conflict with what is stated elsewhere - eg "Running a mix of draft 11n and 11b/g clients on the same draft 11n router will reduce speed somewhat for the draft 11n client but reduce the speed of the 11g clients by more than half." at SmallNetBuilder
"In mixed mode, HT protection requires that 802.11n devices send a legacy preamble, followed by an HT preamble ... These HT protection mechanisms significantly reduce an 802.11n WLAN's throughput, but they are necessary to avoid collisions between older 802.11a/b/g devices and newer 802.11n devices." at TechTarget ANZ

Q: Is having a (draft) 802.11N access point advantageous, even if most or all clients on the network are 802.11G?

A: YES, primarily because 802.11N radios have the benefit of more sophisticated multipath reception capability. They can thereby extend the range and throughput available to G devices to some degree.

Q: Why do so few new devices (aside from APs) feature 802.11N?

A: Several reasons:
Many of these applications would not benefit at all from having higher throughput.
Since G plays well with N, there would be little benefit from the network's perspective.
N chips are more power hungry, reducing battery life
N chips are more expensive
The N standard is new and is not yet finalized

In conclusion:
DO: Upgrade to an 802.11N access point
DO: Phase out any B devices
DO: Turn off B compatibility in your access point to make sure.
DON'T: worry about G devices on your N network

bill001g · Jul 31, 2013

Hmmm that is very strange. Must not have posted quick enough and dbhost got a post in between. In general i have seen enough of your posts DB to know you have strong knowledge on the topic and would have just assumed you did not state it clearly even if I though it was incorrect. The post from lostsurfer although trying to be helpful tends to confuse people. The idea that choosing a higher channel will get you better coverage is pure misinformation. Also the statement that putting routers near each other will cause interference is over simplification of the issue and show little knowledge of how radio transmissions really work.

Beachnative · Jul 31, 2013

For the record, DB is one smart dude. Heck just ask about his home network, it's unreal!!!

dbhosttexas · Jul 31, 2013

Beachnative :

You flatter me sir (or madam I am not 100% sure), but I have been known to be wrong. I only brought it up because if I am lacking in my understanding, I want to learn...

And for what it's worth, if you knew me in High School you would be stunned by the statement you made about me. I made MANY stupid choices in that time frame...

Beachnative · Jul 31, 2013

dbhosttexas :

In high school I was the typical surf bum stoner, today my father would be shocked to see what I do for a living if he was still alive. I made more stupid choices back then 79 - 81 than the law allowed, trust me I was no angel

Beachnative · Jul 31, 2013

dbhosttexas :

I've read more than a few posts of yours and I've always been impressed, just calling it as I see it.

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Need Advice on Home Network Setup

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