bandwidth issue out of ideas

fabby

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Dec 26, 2012
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Ok, so around 2 weeks ago I was having issues with my internet mainly being my bandwidth feeling a lot limited due to the fact that I was unable to stream to twitch TV anymore due to insufficient bandwidth, I have been streaming fine for 2 months until 2 weeks ago due to that problem. So I started trouble shooting everything, checking my network card, virus's, malware, etc. Everything fine, then I check my actual power levels and noticed my upload power level was at 54, while my download power levels were fine. Book a technician he comes, replaced a wire outside my house and leaves, upload power level goes down to 52, still too high. Call another, he replaces an even longer wire that was torn and it's back down to 43. I thought that my have fixed it but nothing had changed, call another technician he tests my line and stuff, says it's fine but there was a report about a node on a pole that was having network problems, next day come and i'm told that the node was fixed. My problems still persist with my bandwidth, I have another technician come out, but this time he brought along a friend, a supervisor, and someone to work on the node manually. Like all other technicians they run the ol' speed test and it's giving proper speeds. They check everything around my house, test my signal, check the node, everything is fine, speedtest is fine, and still my problem persists and the bandwidth is still fluctuating. Now i'm stuck posting here and seeing what alternatives I have other than switching to FIOS.

Thanks.

P.S. i'm not even sure how to explain my problem to the employee's when they all only check how your speed tests are doing?

Edit - my wireless gateway was also replaced on the 3rd visit.

Oh and example, not wanting to advertise but here's my examples..

http://www.twitch.tv/fable687/b/443265424 starts around 5:45

compared to like, http://www.twitch.tv/fable687/b/436840475

where I stream for 3 hours with 0 frames dropped, and starting 2 weeks ago this new problem arose where just 5 mins in I get tons of frame drops, and when I go check why something is up with my bandwidth..

thanks.


~fabbbyyy
 


By "upload power" do you mean upload rate? Who is your ISP and what package do you have from them?
 

fabby

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Dec 26, 2012
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Oh now upload speed/rate it's something else that deals with the modem signal which shouldn't be a factor now since its fixed sorry for the confusion and I have comcast 50 down 11 up
 


Okay. The reason I asked is because you talk about signal power as if lower is better, it's the other way around. "upload power level of 54" doesn't mean much. There are two separate metrics which are important for gauging signal quality.

First is Signal Power or RMS signal amplitude. This is measured in dBmV, or a logarithmic ratio relative to 1 millivolt RMS. This ratio is logarithmic, so a 1 millivolt signal would have 0 dBmV. Why? 10Log(1mv real signal / 1mv reference signal) = 0. dB stands for deciBel, Bel indicates that it's a logarithmic value, and deci indicates that it's one tenth, 88dB = 8.8B. The output of the Log() function is multiplied by ten to convert it from Bels to deciBels.

If the signal power is too low, the receiving amplifier won't be able to make any sense of it as it will be indistinguishable from background noise. If the signal power is too high, it could damage the equipment.

For DOCSIS 1.x - 3.x (cable) the signal power has a wide valid range of +8dBmv to upwards of +52dBmv depending on the particular standard. This means that RMS signal amplitudes between 2.5 millivolts and almost 800 millivolts are valid. However, the recommended range is between 35 dBmV and 52 dBmV. Some standards allow for it to go a bit higher, so if it was at 54 dBmV you were already in a good position.

The second, and immensely more important metric is the signal to noise ratio. When the receiver amplifies the signal that was sent along the line it also amplifies the thermal, radio frequency, and electrical noise on the line. Coaxial cable is rather well shielded but it is not immune to noise entirely. specifically, RG-59 cable used to deploy most cable networks in the late 20th century is not suitable for digital transmission and should be replaced with RG-6 cable. The signal to noise ratio works a lot like the signal strength. It's logarithmic but rather than compare a real signal to a reference value, it compares the ratio of the RMS signal amplitude to the RMS noise amplitude (or the signal power to the noise power since they're directly related by a factor of two). Since SNR is a relative ratio between two values of the same unit rather than absolute value itself, it's measured in dB rather than dBmV.

In an ideal world noise wouldn't exist. This would mean that the SNR would be 10Log(Vsignal/0) which would be undefined due to zero noise. Even if the noise were present but infinitesimally small the SNR would approach infinity. This means that a high SNR is very desirable as it makes it easier to separate the signal from the noise, which reduces the occurrence of transmission errors at any particular transmission rate. Since the SNR can approach infinity there's no upper cap on the SNR but typical SNR for cable hookups is in the 30-40 range.

You can see here that when it comes to signals, higher ratios are generally better.

/Tutorial off

11 megabits per second is 1.375 megabytes per second. Decent enough to stream but it doesn't leave a whole lot of room for overhead. Have you tested this when you are the only person on the internet in your residence, or even better when you are the only person connected to the uplink? If not, please do so.

Finally, DOCSIS uses shared nodes. The upstream and downstream bandwidth to each node is quite high, that node then branches off to connect to a number of households. Cable companies usually leave a bit of overhead on each node to ensure quality of service but occasional congestion is not unheard of. If someone nearby is torrenting 24/7, they may have an impact on your quality of service, especially considering that most cable companies configure the data channels for optimal download rates rather than upload rates. Rather than having your cable company fiddle with your line, have them check the node.

Let me know if you have any further questions.
 

fabby

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Dec 26, 2012
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I was referring to the upstream power level, I was using this chart http://www.dslreports.com/faq/5862. Where technicians told me under 50 dB is preferred and the recommended 45 dB is even better, but I believe you and you helped me learn a lot about signal power and amplitude. Speed test's show my speed fine at 57 MBPS/ 9.91 MBPS. But when I actually test it in something like testmy.net it comes out a lot lower, are there any reliable sites that also test that or bandwidth as well, or is testmy.net reliable? Ya I've disconnected my other computers Ethernet from the wireless gateway it's a router/modem in 1 and tested the stream with the same effects. I'm not really sure how to explain to comcast about the congestion issue you were explaining, if maybe you could expand more on it, and i've had them check the node and wiring in and outside the house. Also they also brought in their laptop to connect directly to the coax cable to run a speed tests and the speeds were fine.

Oh and to explain my side a bit better, I used a program called xsplit to test my bandwidth, when tested it usually gave me an average of around 4000-5000 KBPS, but now it's down to 1000-2000 KBPS. To explain it better I think this might help, http://www.xsplit.com/broadcaster/help/index.html?bandwidth_tester_guide.htm

I'm just stuck on what to tell the comcast technicians since they came so many times to check stuff like the cables, switching modem, checking levels, checking node outside, etc. And they only use speedtest to gauge speed, I don't know how they would check my bandwidth..

Thanks again for helping though, I wouldn't mind giving you a shout out on my stream ^_^

Let me know if there's any other information you need.
 


Yeah, that would be the upload signal power. 54dB is quite high, close to the maximum allowed by the standard. If the SNR is high and the cable span to the next receiver is rather short then it doesn't need to be that high. 45dB is fine, it should just be above 35dB. I don't think that there's any problem there.

If your speedtest results are consistently clean then it's not a problem with your local hookup and the techs are right in that there's nothing wrong as far as they can see. More than likely it's a problem upstream along the route from your home network to your stream provider. It's on your ISP's side, Twitch's side, or someone else in the middle, not yours. This is something that will have to be elevated to higher tier tech support, but many ISPs are loathe to make changes like that for a single residential customer. You'd have a better case for a compliant if you were paying for a business line. It's worth bringing to their attention though.
 

fabby

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Dec 26, 2012
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How exactly do I explain that issue to them, all they do is check for clean speed test's and connectivity. I'm not sure how to tell them, "Hey can you check if my bandwidth has been throttled or something?"
 


Explain that you're having connection issues with a particular service. Technicians have checked your own hookup and everything seems okay. It's most likely an upstream issue.
 

fabby

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Dec 26, 2012
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It's not a particular service though, like from what I can tell my upload speed is in general not being recieved, even though speedtest shows it fine it's like i'm not getting that, which I think is related to bandwidth in general, like what do I ask them to check anymore since they came over yesterday with 5 trucks people to check the node and wiring and signal, brought a laptop to just hook it to the gateway to test their speedtest etc.
 


Speedtest selects the closest test server possible to ensure that the number of jumps between your home network and the test server is as low as possible. There are a number of Speedtest servers, often several in every major city. On average, one could expect between 4 and 6 network jumps to the closest Speedtest server. The first couple of jumps will usually be through your ISP, followed by the major internet backbones (if applicable), followed by the destinations ISP, and finally the destination itself.

From my location here in the GTA it takes 8 jumps to get to www.tomshardware.com (which is on a Content Delivery network by the looks of it), yet getting to www.tomshardware.co.uk requires 14 jumps.

www.twitch.tv uses a CDN as well. I do not know what's involved with streaming to www.twitch.tv but a traceroute showed about 14 jumps as well.

If any one of those jumps is experiencing congestion, the entire route will experience a degraded quality of service. Speedtest is fine because there's only a few network hops between your PC and the local speedtest server. Since your local hookup is a common denominator between speedtest and twitch (that is, the traffic to both flows through the same physical cable and over the same logical interface) I'd say that it can safely be ruled out. However, at some point that traffic diverges, speedtest follows one path, and twitch follows another.

Internet traffic is a lot like running a relay race. Person A runs the baton to person B, who runs the baton to person C, who in turn runs it to person D. If person C decides to be a lazy fuck or stop for a big mac in the middle of the relay race, person D won't get the baton until much later than he or should normally would have. Your local internet connection in this case would be person A, and twitch.tv's upstream provider would be person D. Both can be great competitors, but they're at the mercy of persons B and C to do their jobs properly.

This analogy can get a bit more complicated. Lets introduce persons E and F. E and F are in parallel to B and C. Person A can hand the baton to persons B or E, and persons C and F can hand the baton to person D. B can only hand the baton to C, and E can only hand it to F. There are now two possible routes that the baton can take from A to D:

A -> B -> C -> D

or

A -> E -> F -> D

In this case, both routes require the baton to be passed three times, but there's no knowledge of how fast it will be passed. If C is a slow fuck, then the second route through E and F may be faster but it's up to the sender to decide which route to use for each baton. The sender may continue to use B and C until C passes out from exhaustion, at which point the sender will fall back onto E and F. Alternatively, the sender may alternate between them, or try to estimate which one will be faster for each baton on a case by case basis.

Lets add another runner, G, inserted after F.

A -> E -> F -> G -> D

now the second route is longer, requiring 4 exchanges rather than 3. If all runners were equal, the first route with B and C would make the most sense, with the second route only being used if B breaks an ankle or C has a heart attack. However, not all runners are equal, nor are all major interconnects on the internet. However, unlike runners in a relay, NICs are blind. They don't have the ability to evaluate other nodes without being told information about them first.

Imagine if A didn't know that C was a worthless runner and just kept handing the baton to B because D kept saying that it arrived. Without knowing something about the E -> F -> G chain, or being explicitly told to use it, it'll just continue to use the busted B -> C chain until the end of time.

Anyway, that's what I mean by telling them to look upstream.

The only other alternative would be to look at your PC itself. I know next to nothing about streaming, so I can't really help you there.
 

fabby

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Dec 26, 2012
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I see, to be more specific streaming just relys on your CPU as well as a good upload speed, around 3-10 depending on how good your stream looks, as well as depending on bandwidth, I don't know how to tell them something like that because they don't look at that, I'm not sure what telling them to look at the upstream specifically will do, is there anything else I can tell them to be more thorough about?

Thanks again.
 


Just tell them what you're doing. You're streaming high bitrate video upstream and it's having intermittent connectivity issues.
 

fabby

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Dec 26, 2012
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Thanks a lot again, here's an update from them:

I pulled up the Node information and its not a congestion issue with the amount of subscribers, that number is actually really low. However there are several issues going on with that Node right now which are causing a degredation to the service in the area.
It looks like there have been upstream signal interference issues starting on the 31st in the area. I am not sure yet what has caused them, or what work is being done to restore this Node to optimal service levels.
I have reached out to the local group to get more information on this. When I hear back I will let you know what is going on.

Thanks
Nick
 


Bingo, just what I thought it was! Just a matter of time until they sort it out. Best of luck!
 

fabby

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Dec 26, 2012
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Now i'm back to the drawing board as apparently they said the node is fixed and i'm still having the same issues, they always spam the speedtest's and as long as thats fine, they label the connection as fine, but i'm not sure if speedtest even shows bandwidth..
o well.. :(

Sidenote: I don't understand why speedtest is always consistent, it was even consistent when the supposed node issues started, yet other sites show my download fine but my upload way lower.. such as testmy.net or speakeasy