More cores or Hyperthreading for next gen/editing

JoseyMG

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Jun 21, 2013
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Im deciding on what to get 4770k or 8350. I know they are very different on what they offer for the different price range, but i want the "best" of the best from each category. Im slightly confused on the hyperthreading. 4 cores, but with HT, it acts like an 8 core, am i right? If so will it be "future" proof since it has 8 cores? Ill be doing a lot of video editing and multi tasking so which one will be better for me? Ill be using programs like Adobe After Effects, Sony Vegas, Photoshop and 3Ds max. And ill be gaming a lot. Thanks!
 
Solution


Hyperthreading is a neat little technology that allows a single physical processor core to work on two logically isolated workloads at the same time (a single physical processor core is exposed as two...
Hyperthreading is what Intel uses to increase the core count without adding actual physical cores, it makes each of the four cores in a quad core have two treads which in effect makes the core able to handle two tasks at the same time one on each thread.
The fact that you have two 8 cores to choose from means you have to take in other factors for your decision, price being one gives the edge to AMD , quality and reputation might go to Intel. So your left with what is the future socket design going to give you for an upgrade path, which one is most likely to change their socket design.
Then you have gaming to consider and which will give an edge there and so I might lean towards Intel and the i7-4770k.
 
it is impossible to tell how long it will take to move to a world where everything is multi threaded. even if next gen games are heavily multi threaded (say designed to use 6 cores) the thing is that quad core intels will still run those games just fine, and amd's wouldn't get loaded up to the max. honestly aside from 4 cores in heavy use, I doubt the other cores of amd would even break 50% with next gen games.
 


Hyperthreading is a neat little technology that allows a single physical processor core to work on two logically isolated workloads at the same time (a single physical processor core is exposed as two logical processors). The core resources are balanced dynamically between the two workloads.

If one of the workloads is an idle thread, then the majority of the core's execution resources will be dedicated to the primary workload, effectively turning it into a powerful single core processor. This is why most people claim that "modern games don't take advantage of Hyperthreading", there aren't enough concurrent workloads in them to spill over.

If the two workloads are balanced, then the core's resources are spread between them almost evenly. At this point, the processor does behave as if it had twice as many physical cores, with each one somewhat less performant than it would be were Hyperthreading disabled.

example,

Workload A utilizes 50% of a cores resources and executes in 1 second. Workload B utilizes 25% of a core's resources and executes in 0.5 seconds. Workloads A and B are disjoint, sharing no common execution resources (impossible in reality, but good for this example).

If Hyperthreading is disabled, the microprocessor must execute workloads A and B sequentially, consuming a total of 1.5 seconds of time between them.

If Hyperthreading is enabled, the microprocessor can execute workloads A and B concurrently, provided that it has the resources to do so. In this example, there's plenty of compute power left over so A and B can run at the same time. B will finish first after 0.5 seconds, followed by A 0.5 seconds later (total of 1 second run time).

If the workload of B is increased to 75% for 1.5 seconds, then the combined workloads exceed 100% of the core's resources.

If Hyperthreading is disabled, the two workloads still take 2.5 seconds.

If Hyperthreading is enabled, then the processor has to balance between A and B. Lets assume a perfect 50/50 split,

Workload A gets 50% of the core's resources and completes within 1.0 seconds as before. Workload B gets 50% of the core's resources but requires 75% to execute within 1.5 seconds. For the first second, it is only able to use two thirds of the resources that it needed to complete the workload within the non-Hyperthreaded completion time. Lets do some math,

0.75 * 1.5 = 1.125

1.125 - 0.5 * 1.0 = 0.625

0.625 / 0.75 = 0.833 seconds remaining

So rather than taking 1.5 seconds to execute, it takes 1.833 seconds to execute. This is longer than it would take had it full access to the core's execution resources, but it executes concurrently with workload A which still reduces the combined execution time from 2.5 seconds to 1.833 seconds. Not a bad increase!

/Hyperthreading tutorial
 
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JoseyMG

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Jun 21, 2013
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So many numbers o.0 but i think i get it
 
pinhedd gave a good explaination of hyperthreading. However keep in mind that the overall increase in performance is closer to 20% but still a sizable increase. Hyperthreading may come into play in next gen games, however I wouldn't worry too much about. Even an i5 3570k will be able to handle next gen games quite well I would think. Honestly hyperthreading isn't that big of an increase so I doubt it will come into play for gaming. The i7 would handle the games about the same as an i5, maybe a little better if hyperthreading plays nice with games (there are some games out now that perform worse with hyperthreading enabled).

That being said, I don't think that next gen games are going to be what i'd call heavily multi-threaded. I could see 4 heavily loaded cores on an 8350, with the rest being lightly loaded (say 20-35% usage tops). They will mostly likely be multi-threaded, but not enough to really say which architecture will be the "winner".

Honestly you'd probably be fine with either an i5, i7 or 8350. It all comes down to what you do outside of games that makes the difference between processors. If you do video/photo editing, CAD, video encoding/ripping, etc... then an 8350 or (if you can afford it) an i7 would be a good choice. If you don't use a lot of heavily threaded applications then an i5 or 8320/50 or even a 6300/50 would work well. If you can afford intel with a good graphics card (say a GTX 760 or better) then I'd say you'd be just fine with that.

Future proofing is a term that gets thrown around a lot, I wouldn't say an i7 is any more future proof than an i5 for gaming for the next 3-5 years. Hyperthreading isn't that big of an increase in performance and it might not play nice with multi threaded games (since as pinhedd pointed out, it could cause a process to take longer to finish which might cause stuttering. this is purely speculation though). Besides, the i5 has enough power to muscle its way through it.
 

JoseyMG

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Jun 21, 2013
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I do a lot of video editing and rendering and gaming so im basically stuck between the 8350 or 4770k. The 8350 is a monster at multi tasking, but i havent seen any vids of the 4770k multi tasking. Im sure its great id just like to see what it can do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EKyJRQU4Ek
The amd vid. Thats more than enough than what i need it for, and the guy is rendering 2 1080p vids and god knows how many video players open, and running Need for Speed everything on ultra running smoothly. I just want to know how will the 4770k match up to that since its hyperthreaded so it acts like an 8 core. Next gen games are going to be "optimized" for amd although thatll probably not make a difference.
 

popatim

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Also, and 8350 does not have 8 full cores. It has 4 BD modules and each module has 2 partial cores plus resourced shared between them. performance in many video editors is very good but the i7 is usually faster.

You might want to check with forums of the editor that you use to see if anyone has posted reviews. For $200 the 8350 is a heck of an editing cpu but in most everything else it gets beat by an i5 (4core/4thread)

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-vishera-review,3328.html
 


Intel's top end four core microprocessors generally exceed AMD's top end eight core microprocessors in most workloads at manufacturer specifications. Intel's microprocessors also draw about 50 watts less power while doing so.

The simplest explanation is one based in basic macroeconomics; compare the price points. If Intel's 4000 series microprocessors weren't taking AMD's 8300 series microprocessors to the cleaners, they wouldn't be able to demand a 2x-3x price premium.
 


The i7 is a beast at multi threading. The a stock clock i7 only gets beat by the 8350 when all 8 cores are loaded to 100%, even then the i7 still wins in some cases.

Also, clock for clock (so both at 4 ghz) the i7 is faster. the i7 also scales better with overclocking so at say 4.8 ghz the gap between them gets even wider.

The only reason to go with the 8350 in your case is if going with the 8350 gets you a much better video card. But if you can get a good card and an i7 you'll be better off for the most part. I really don't see the 8350 beating the i7 hands down. While the 8350 is a beast at multitasking, i personally think that the i7 is better.

Either way, the 8350 is definitely good enough for gaming and multithreading so the choice is really yours. The answer to your question is that both cpus perform similarly, with the i7 being a bit better at stock clocks and far better when overclocked. The question becomes whether you want to pay the intel premium to get that extra performance when the 8350 will be able to handle what you want well enough.

Personally I'd rather go with the 8350, but I do recognize intel's superiority in gaming. There are however only a few games where the 8350 lags significantly behind and in those games it still gets 60+ fps so it isn't such a big deal.
 
While it's true that games will not use hyperthreading themselves because a game may be designed to use 3 or 4 cores it's what else that wants to run in the background that could demand resources. How many people will have a second or even a third monitor that may not be used for the game but rather having a web page open or a movie running or several monitoring apps open to what temps and FPS.
This is where hyperthreading comes into play and becomes useful.
 

JoseyMG

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Jun 21, 2013
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Ok lets say that games do use more than 4 cores, lets say a game uses 8. The i7 will act as an 8 core processor, and use the 8 threads just like the 8350 would with its cores is that correct? And it will be better because of the single core performance. And it will be great at multi tasking as well.
 


essentially yes. However I doubt games will use more than 6 cores with the next gen coming. Even then it wouldn't be enough to load 6 cores of the 8350 to even 50% except on a few cores. The i7 could probably cruise along just fine with 4 cores.

With next gen games, I would imagine that 2 cores would be left for background tasks and the OS so that would leave 6 cores for the game itself. Since these cores are clocked at 1.6 ghz I doubt that even the i5 would have problems running the games. That said the i7 would probably pull ahead in gaming a bit due to hyperthreading.
 
Game developers won't be making games that use 8 cores because then they will be restricting their games to be sold to the few that have 8 cores. For the forseeable future a quad core will be the mainstream target CPU of game developers. Even now if you look at the minimum requirements it's still listing a dual core CPU because there are a lot of people that have that. Eventually as they upgrade and quad cores become cheaper then everyone will have one and the games will start to move towards more cores as 8 or more cores become mainstream.
 

JoseyMG

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Alright thanks for the info. Im thinking of going for the 4770k now even though its hot as fudge. I might wait for ivy bridge e, but do you think it is really worth it? I mean 500 $ for a cpu is a lot of money. And the editing that i plan on doing is stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU6YEcIAI2A
So its not CGI intensive stuff. Mostly Vegas and After Effects.
One thing im worried about is loosing the silicon lottery and getting a bad haswell chip :c I want to OC a lot so :T And these will be the rest of my specs.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($279.99 @ Microcenter)
CPU Cooler: NZXT Kraken X60 98.3 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($107.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Trident X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-2400 Memory ($165.51 @ NCIX US)
Storage: Samsung 840 Pro Series 256GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($224.99 @ Mac Mall)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Black 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($148.96 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($119.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 780 3GB Video Card (2-Way SLI) ($675.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 780 3GB Video Card (2-Way SLI) ($675.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: NZXT Switch 810 (Black) ATX Full Tower Case ($154.99 @ NCIX US)
Case Fan: Corsair Air Series AF140 Quiet Edition 67.8 CFM 140mm Fan ($18.99 @ Newegg)
Case Fan: Corsair Air Series AF140 Quiet Edition 67.8 CFM 140mm Fan ($18.99 @ Newegg)
Case Fan: Corsair Air Series AF140 Quiet Edition 67.8 CFM 140mm Fan ($18.99 @ Newegg)
Case Fan: Corsair Air Series AF140 Quiet Edition 67.8 CFM 140mm Fan ($18.99 @ Newegg)
Case Fan: Noctua NF-F12 PWM 55.0 CFM 120mm Fan ($24.99 @ Newegg)
Case Fan: Noctua NF-F12 PWM 55.0 CFM 120mm Fan ($24.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Corsair 860W 80 PLUS Platinum Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply ($170.99 @ Amazon)
Optical Drive: Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer ($17.98 @ Outlet PC)
Monitor: BenQ XL2420T 120Hz 24.0" Monitor ($329.00 @ Amazon)
Keyboard: Corsair Vengeance K70 Wired Gaming Keyboard ($119.99 @ Microcenter)
Other: Ms3 Gaming Mouse ($84.11)
Other: O Rings for keyboard Sound Dampening ($8.25)
Other: Steel Series QcK Heavy Mouse Pad ($24.99)
Other: NZXT Hue ($28.99)
Other: Maximus VI Formula Motherboard ($329.99)
Total: $3794.61
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-08-14 00:53 EDT-0400)
Im only buying 1 780 for now and only some of the fans lol but thats basically it. My "dream" build.
 
As far as Sandy Bridge-E and Ivy Bridge-E processors go there are specific reasons to go with that model CPU. These are the extreme high end processors and therefore have some upgraded features that are unique to them. For example if you look at the specifications of the Processors you'll see that most have 16 lanes of Pci-e bandwith to divide up amongst the Pci-e slots. If you have one video card in the first slot then you'll get all x16 lanes, if you then go with two cards you are splitting that into x8 each.
With the Ivy Bridge-E processor you get 40 lanes of Pci-e bandwith and those two cards can now have x16 each. The E-CPUs also have the quad channel memory controller on the die for quad channel ram. The overclocking is also very easy and the E-Processors will overclock with out much effort.

You don't have to go with the most expensive model and the 4930k ill give you all of those features at about half the cost of the 4960x and they also will have the 4820k wich will be even lower priced. All these processors have hyperthreading with the top two being 6 core CPUs so you end up with 12 threads.
Naturally the platform will cost more because the LGA 2011 socket motherboards are more expensive and you have to use quad channel ram.
I went with the Sandy Bridge-E i7-3930k when I built this last Pc and I am very happy with it , the overclock is at 4.7ghz and if I wanted to spend more time on it I'm sure it will go higher but you do need good cooling for that.

With what you listed for your build it looks like your budget is quite high so you may want to consider the Ivy Bridge-E processor.