Asus Maximus VI Hero vs. MSI Z87-GD65 Gaming

Not a problem, think you'll be very happy with the Hero, there's been a ton of folks here in the forums that have gotten it and haven't heard any complaints

That's a tough one.....I have used Asus boards almost exclusively in last dozen years or so......But starting w/ Z77 MSI made a huge push into the < $200 space..... and IMO, has pushed Asus down to 2nd place in this segment. If ya were willing to stretch ya budget to $300, Id argue hard for the Maximus VI Formula ..... to my mind it's the best buy on the market right now. But below $200 I'm jumping in the bandwagon with most reviewers and computing community and picking the GD-65 here. Even the GD-65s little brother the G45 has garnered 22 MoBo awards to date....quite an accomplishment for a manufacturer who was an also ran prior to Z77.

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/msi_z87_gd65_gaming/12.htm

MSI has been using components that meet or exceed MIL-STD-810G for some time as part of its Military Class build philosophy. Parts such as Super Ferrite Chokes that run at up to 35 degree Celsius lower temperatures, have a 30% higher current handling capacity, and a 20% improvement in power efficiency; Tantalum filled Hi-C Caps that are are up to 93% efficient; and "Dark Capacitors" that feature Lower ESR and a ten-year lifespan all tied into a PCB with improved temperature and humidity protections as part of the "Military Essentials" package......In the end MSI's Z87-GD65 is a board that comes with an expansive feature set that includes all your basics and the extras that set them apart such as the V-Check points, upper end audio, Dual BIOS ROMs, KIller Network package, Military Class IV package, and a three-year warranty. Couple that with good looks that carry the dragon theme through the board, and you have a winning combination at $189.

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http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/msi_z87_gd65_gaming_review/15

Now and again a motherboard appears that is so obviously brilliant, and so affordable, that we wonder if anything will be able to top it. For a while that crown was held by the ASUS Sabertooth, both in X58 and then P67 variants. Then MSI stole the crown with the Z77 MPower. Looking at the Z87 GD65 Gaming we think it's going to take something extraordinary to top it, such is the perfect storm of price, performance, features and looks.

The switch to Military Class 4 has given us an extremely ready overclocker too. You're always thermally limited when overclocking and the i7-4770K is one of the most demanding around. Considering the amount of cooling we're using we think that although the GD65 is capable of bringing 5GHz from our i7-4770K you'd need a proper water loop to make the most of it.

Performance is outstanding. The stock results were a particular highlight. We know a lot of people still just like to put their CPU in and go, without overclocking it first. Despite how easy it is these days we know that the fear factor still exists. So you'll be glad to know that the MSI Z87 GD65 Gaming really rocks hard even at stock settings. Naturally the overclocking is blistering too, with some OC3D records broken.

MSI have laid the gauntlet down to all the other manufacturers. Gorgeous to look at, blistering performance and all at a very affordable price, the MSI Z87 GD65 Gaming is not only the new benchmark for Z87 motherboards, but probably for all motherboards.

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The GD-65 won Best Choice Golden Award at Comdex this year .... quite an accomplishment for a sub $200 board.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=-1&IsNodeId=1&Description=msi%20g45%20z87&bop=And&CompareItemList=280|13-131-989^13-131-989-TS%2C13-130-692^13-130-692-TS

The Hero has better sound....GD has better NIC.

GD has higher memory support

GD has 1 more PCI-E 3 slot. Hero has faster PCIE-2 slot

GD has 1 x Coaxial SPDIF

GD has D-Sub + DVI on MoBo

GD has MIL spec components

GD has 2 digit Debug LCD

GD has 5 4 pin fan headers

GD has mSata port

Hero has sonic radar

GD has combo discounts with 770 and 760 GFX cards

I have had 4 Asus failures in the last year.... one of which took almost 6 weeks to resolve and this with my status as "premium customer".....0 MSI failures so far but I use Asus more than I use MSI. Tech support has been sound and responsive .... and MIL spec don't come with Asus until ya get to the Sabertooth.

Don't take those failures as a broad based paintbrush knocking Asus ....it's far too small a number to provide a sound basis for judgement ...though I'm still perturbed about the almost 6 weeks to resolve a failure on a $365 MoBo and the 1st RMA that showed up looking more warped than a banana.

As I've said many times, I'm not a fan a reviews, you see very few 'bad' reviews and for a reason, the mobos and components sent out for review are hand culled, only the best are sent out, additionally most publishers/web sites, etc know that if they print a bad review, there's a possibility they won't be seeing products for review in the future or advertising dollars may disappear....to me it's more telling about a mobo, like with this one, the MSI, that see multiple instances of bad DRAM slots, bad ethernet slots, etc - those type things point to poor QC

recent msi boards are alright, the problem is quality control. Like asrock a lot of their boards leave the factory DOA. The problem for both asrock and msi is much more apparent in their AMD motherboards, on the intel side of things their boards are pretty good.

that said, asus boards have been top of the heap for over a decade now for a good reason. the maximus might be more expensive but like everything in life you generally get what you pay for.

No problem, I try and treat people here the same as I do clients one on one - if someone is insistent on building with an MSI mobo, I send them to someone who will build with it, $100 for the build isn't enough to cover the headaches in future - I get more repair/problem calls on MSI based rigs then any two other mobo makers put together.

I put a lot more faith however in published reviews from respected sites than I do in forum postings.....enjoyed one poster's complaint about his problems and his followup that newegg rejected his RMA for bent socket pins.

As for the feature comparison ....well there's just no way to argue how that settles up.

I had an issue with the Killer NIC but latest driver solved it.... have had no RAM problems but then I stay away from "Walmart" brands..

Jack, if you know anybody there or anyone wants to supply a mobo for testing, I'd be happy to, but I'm not going to drop $190 at the Egg when chances are good it'll be DOA or something like that especially as mobos are non-refundable....and I think I summed it up earlier when I told you about their National Sales Manager wouldn't even stand behind the products when he was in a strictly win/win situation, and offered such a lame excuse

As for direct personal experience, we have my 5 MSI builds this summer as the total direct Z77 / Z87 MSI experience between the 2 of us. Meanwhile I have had 2 WS Asus Boards fail on same box (one board DOA and so warped it couldn't even be installed in case) .... two 1156 boards fail in old builds that came back (one I blame partly on user) and one Z87-A that I troubleshooted for 11 hours.

When ya say "Chances are good it'll be DOA or something like that ?" I gotta ask based upon what? Where's the data ?

G45 has a 81% 4 eggs or greater user experience rating w/ 10% 2 eggs or less / Z87-A has 69% 4 eggs or greater w/ 24% 2 eggs or less. Looking at the bad eggs, by that kind of logic is it safe to conclude that Asus is 2.4 times worse than MSI ????? or can we agree that sampling of < 50 is far to small to draw any logical conclusions ?

I don't use Asrock because what I read in the trade press (warped boards, bulged and bleeding caps, I was able to confirm each by direct personal observation. But in this discussion we don't have any personal direct observations of bad boards.

When we can draw upon a sampling of a 100's of instances to go by we can talk about what is likely to be DOA..... That's why I won't let anecdotal experiences influence my purchasing decisions. If I did that after my recent 6 week escapade with Asus, I'd never have bought another board. With the WS workstation boards the purchaser is guaranteed, premium support, free shipping and cross shipping ...RMA arrives 1st and then ya send board back in the box they sent you.... I got none of that.....over 20 calls over 5+ weeks and nothing but frustration.

Asus failed to honor anything..... failed to ship a 2nd board, failed to pay shipping, VP of support guaranteed me pre-XMas arrival by overnight mail and still Asus was unable to deliver on any promises. And after all that, they delivered a board so warped that it's I/O section missed fitting thru the opening in case by half an inch. Got lots of apologies from Asus but that didn't help a kid w/ a ruined XMAs because he got a bunch of games for that he couldn't play because Asus couldn't deliver on a component they received shortly after Halloween..

It was a bad experience..... and though I happened to have a string of bad Asus experiences, it would be an error on my part to write off Asus based upon such an inadequate sampling. I wrote it off to a string of bad luck along with some pretty inept customer service personnel.

As I wrote in another thread....peruse youtube for Mayems Aurora coolant..... you'll see 100s of "you're an idiot" postings cause "they heard" it's going to gunk up the system ..... now go look for evidence of gunking up the system.... none to be found. Again, not saying that it won't .... its is after all marketed for short term use only...... but I can find no evidence of this alleged gunking, and some to the contrary .... one user with 9 months and including a 5 week off period while on vacation ..... yet the rumor persists with all the posters throwing around an air of authority on something they have no actual experience with.

The GD65 had some issues with the Killer NIC...since resolved just recently with a new driver..... All the ROG boards had an issue with AI Suite with dozens of denunciations of this crappy utility that doesn't work..... all since resolved in the last week, yet the internet postings remain.

All I am saying is without published data or personal experience, I'm hesitant to rely on miniscule samplings and things I read on the internet without supporting references and documentation. I have yet to see that in this instance.

Jack,

To be quite honest, I'm glad you have had good luck with them, and that's one reason I contacted them after numerous members urged me to. I'd love to expand the lines of mobos I use...

But, (the inevitable 'BUT', with MSI, my experience goes back a long way, and over the period of 2006 on on, when using numerous MSI mobos I watched the decline of quality and QC just increase, and watched them continue to lose market share in sales, seeming quite happy to keep their sales close to previous years selling OEM boards for prebuilts (also causing profit declines)...right to the point they had the serious problems with the P67s that they well knew about and refused to acknowledge or do anything about, which is when I dropped them...and to this day, I get more problem calls about MSI based systems than any two other mobo makers put together....I also hear the same from other builders and It folks I network w/ many of whom have also dropped using MSI products.

I work the forums to try and help me keep up with things concerning components and see what problems are going going on and what products aren't getting complaints and have seen nothing to change my mind here or other forums, and even still, when I see problems with MSI mobos here, I still try and help the folks with troubleshooting and trying to get things fixed..

So a single bad experience or two doesn't really bother me one way or another, it's going to happen, but when it's something that is year in and year out and all throughout each year, yes it does bother me....

That's why I was very careful to note and limit my discussion to Z87 and Z87 boards. As I had indicated, up until that point I had ignored MSI. It was the trade press that pushed me into taking another look. In 2006, MSI wasn't using MIL spec components in their MoBos, they weren't sweeping in trade press and best in show awards

It's well acknowledge that they had issues with the P67 boards .... lotta manufacturers did, some more than others. The industry took a hit that year having to replace millions of MoBos with B3 versions and cost cutting measures that were undertaken left their mark. Again, as was highly touted in the trade press, MSI retooled and revamped with Z77 and this has to be recognized. All of a sudden, the trade press was remarking on the new boards use of higher quality components, remarking on the abundance of features and performance. I watched and listened and when the evidence just became so overwhelming, I becam less reluctant to give one a try. When I had a user come in and specifically ask for an MSI board (he liked the dragon ), I showed him alternatives, but eventually went with it.

I found the BIOS not to be as polished as Asus but how much of that was "what I'm used to" versus what makes the most sense I can't say. Things change .... manufacturers change .... At one time I used the Antec Signature Series and CP series (CP-850 is still the best, not to mention the most inexpensive 850 watt PSU I have ever used) exclusively. The HCG / HCP don't quite cut it for me..... and the hX850 (rather than the newer AX series with higher ripple and less stringent voltage regulation) has been the default choice. I imagine it will cease production soon and I'll have to go searching for a new fav at that point.

I see you by yur sig, you use Asrock....well back in P67 days, most of their MoBos had just 1 and 2 year warrantees. The trade press was full of warped board, bleeding and popped caps stories and I have seen them myself. I still see the ocassional post of that nature but, today 1) they are no longer priced and marketed as a "Walmart" brand, 2) they have upped their warrantees and 3) there are a lot less horror stories. That "change" has to be recognized. They haven't gotten the support of the trade press as much of late as MSI has so I'm a bit less enthusiastic about giving them a try than I was with MSI.

I also note that the level of boards I'm interested in (workstation and extreme gaming) have abysmal user ratings on newegg

ASRock Z77 Extreme11 - 55% 1 egg
ASRock Z77 WS - 66% 2 eggs or less
ASRock Fatal1ty Z77 - 25% 2 eggs or less
Extreme 6 - 24% 2 eggs or less
Extreme 4 - 23% 2 eggs or less

MSI Z87 G45 - 12% 2 eggs or less
MSI Z77 G45 - 12% 2 eggs or less
MSI Z87 GD-65 - 18% 2 eggs or less
MSI Z77 GD65 - 21% 2 eggs or less

Again, I'm still using Asus in the high end but newegg feedback wise, in the <$150 price category MSI rules which again is consistent with both the press and my own experiences. Pre Z77, none of those things were true which is why I think you have to separate P67 and back from Z77 to present.

When you mention the P67 - actually all of them had issues with the SATA controllers which is why ALL were pulled from the shelves, I'm referring to afterwards, when mobos were reissued with the SATA Controller fix - everyone flooded to buy and THAT's when MSI released all thos e mobos with the defective DRAM sockets....and refused to acknowledge to customers there was even a problem - I personnally had a few different people tell me from their tech support, they had never heard of a problem such as I described - both on the phone and via email - even though some I had talked to previously and had clients who had called, you say you check reviews , well they were there, continual power on/off/on loops....

As far as your affinity for quoting reviews You mention the a few ASRock mobos above

i.e. the ASRock Z77 Extreme 11 55% 1 EGG - Yet this mobo was given an Editors Choice Award by Tech PowerUp - and on the Egg reviews there was a problem with the initial BIOS chip - similar to the Ethernet problem you mentioned with the MSI mobos that was fixed with a Driver update (yet there was no fix for the bad DRAM slots) -

The Z77 WS that was out of 3 total reviews

The Z77 EX6 24% 2 Egg or less....4 total vs 11 that gave 5 Eggs (and of those 4, well actually read them.

The Z77 EX4 Toms Hardware Approved Award - also of all Z77 mobos that rec'd more than 5 customer reviews the EX4 is rated best by NewEgg (out of 904 reviews), which also in part comes w/ getting the most reviews of any Z77 mobo by about 150 over the Asus Sabertooth

Or another telling factor, the EX4 which you choose to trash as bad or whatever, even though the customers rated it as the Best, also got more reviews by itself than the top 8 reviewd MSI mobos put together ....

if one was to go into percentages and number crunching then you might see that, that just the top 2 Rock mobos that got reviews cumulatively had more reviews by themselves than all the MSI mobos put together all 22 models - yet only 2 Rock mobos have more reviews that all 22 MSI mobos, a statistician would obviously come to the conclusion that just based on this ratio alone, the Rock obviously outsold the MSI mobos by a extremely large percentage, which can also be indicative of there will obviously be more mobo going out, more will have problems
While trying to trash the Rock on the Z77 mobos you also fail to point out the overall BEST ratings - if start at the top of the overall best ratings and run through the overall list to a total of 20 mobos between the Rock and MSI combined - it's interesting to find of the combined 20 1155 mobos 14 are Asrock and the other 6 are MSI

Another fault I find with your numbers is that they are based on reviews by users, do you ever read any of these....with many of the builders and IT folks I network with, we often do LOOK at these reviews and there is a constant flow of emails between us on them, like have you ever noticed how many are written by folks that rate themselves as Experts, but complain about DRAM not running at it's advertised freq (hint: most have no idea what XMP is, second hint: most haven't upgraded their BIOS, or they complain some other component doesn't work - hint in many cases haven't loaded drivers or if they did, they loaded the drivers from the driver disk, which more often has out of date drivers before the person ever even got the mobo, (I and most builders I know never even open the driver disk that comes with the mobo for that very reason - YET these people are rating themselves as EXPERTS.

So yes it's easy to take a few little specif numbers intended to discredit a particular manufacturer, as it appears you've done, while also picking particular numbers to enhance your favored mobo, most anyone can spend 10 minutes and a take a real look at the more realistic numbers here that are more truely indicative of what's up.....wouldn't take real long to run through what you've chosen as a forum to try and discredit the Rock and make MSI look good, but ttrust me, you wouldn't want to see the results....

Again, I've also offered reasons above and before and often as to why reviews don't really do anything for me, I prefer hands on and talking directly with real pros and industry folks that A) aren't biased by oversight and B) I know actually that they know what they are talking about

jack, not to pile on (though it feels like i am so i'll try to say this without doing so) but i am a little concerned you even care about newegg customer reviews. Most of those reviews are "price sensitive" and "tech ignorant" meaning cheaper parts get better reviews because people have lower expectations, while more expensive parts get worse reviews because the part fails to live up to expectations. The tech ignorant reviews are even more prevalent.

The only reasons i ever bother with the reviews is to 1) read about features and compatibility hands on experience i can't easily glean from the specs, 2) watch out for common hardware failure.

beyond that newegg reviews are pointless.

__________________

Good point on price sensitive, that would be something to factor in if one did do an analysis, which it might be interesting to do sometime

When you mention the P67 - actually all of them had issues with the SATA controllers

Click to expand...

You missed the point..... that's not what I was talking about .... I was referring to the secondary impacts .... every MoBo manufacturer took a huge financial hit from Intels fiasco ..... what corners did each one cut to recover some of those monies constitutes the secondary impacts.

As far as the "it sold a lot so it must be good" ..... that's what engineer's call "The Walmart Argument".... that which sells the most, must be the best..... Selling the most doesn't make it the best, ..... it just makes it the cheapest.

Let's also not forget ....


1. What was the genesis of Asrock ?....it was created by Asus (Pegatron) to sell products to the "builder" (aka price critical) market. Hesitant to impugn their enthusiast rep with the more "price conscious" product (cant sell cheaper w/o cutting corners somewhere ) Asrock was initially created.to sell specifically to this market segment.

2. Why was Asrock the only....yes ONLY major manufacturer to offer only 1 and 2 year warrantees on their MoBo products ? Bean counters or cheap caps ? The finally relented after the P9P67 days when trade press and forums kept harping on the issue.

3. I read about the warped boards, bulged capacitors and other problems long before they came walking in the door. But I can speak directly to the issue as I still have the failed boards ..... their owners would have returned them, but the 1 - 2 year warrantees expired. No ..... "I know a guy who talked to a guy who was at a show and heard ...." stuff

As I said, if you had my experiences (and the pile of boards in my closet) , I see you going 30 years w/o ever giving Asrock a shot at redemption. To the contrary, I give Asrock credit...... they may have broken into their market position by the back door by attacking the budget conscious market .... but they have steadily improved their product over the years. GSkill pretty much did the same thing....steadily gained market share by being the cheapest .... then gradually improved both the product and their margins by matching everyone else.

In order to put something on or off my "no buy list", I use a confluence of factors a) trade press reviews, b) trade press problem reports, c) feature list comparisons d) user reviews and the big one.... e) personal observation and experience. Unless I can check off all 4 , everything is still up in the air. The "network" input .... "I met a guy who knew a guy who....." I pay absolutely no attention to what can only be described as "urban legends"....I'm kinda like the court system in that respect.... hearsay has no place unless it can be independently verified.

And yes, I appreciate the expertise of reviewers who know a lot more than I do.... Id be foolish to discount their expertise or the equipment they have access to.... I no longer have oscilloscopes and all the other goodies to test electronics. And I refuse to "buy a Chevy simply because its a Chevy". I'm a "show me" kinda guy and pretty much a "hardware whore" ....loyalty be damned, I'm going with the guy who has the best numbers.

Thru the 5xx and 6xx series.... Asus took top honors in all the GFX benchies and wound up in over 95% of my builds. Ands here's where we differ. In this situation, from what you have described, you have had good luck with Asus, so come 7xx, ya pick up right where ya left off and get an Asus. The hardware whore in me looks 1st at the Asus but now they gotta prove to me that they can "hold the title". So far they haven't w/ 7xx..... their factory overclocked cards so far are among the lowest clocked on the market. I have done prolly 7-8 SLI builds since summer which were a mix or Asus, Gigabyte and MSI (with no particular favorite, user bought generally what was either cheapest or best aesthetic fit)......only 1 card went back to far (Asus).... system wouldn't post with the one card in....don't expect a problem when replacement arrives.

Unfortunately, the builds have been coming too hard and fast that I don't get to fiddle with them. I can hardly manage a modest OC these days and the boxes are out the door. One of the reasons (though time s the biggest one) I have held off on a new build for myself is I'm waiting for some thing to stand out.

No I don't put a lotta faith in any single review nor any one of those things..... but here w/ the new MSIs we have:

a) Number of Awards / Positive reviews - If there's a $140 MoBo out there with as many glowing reviews I haven't seen it.
b) Problem Reports - have seen no trade press reports of wide spread problems.
c) Feature list Comparisons - little to argue about there....simple compare function on newegg tells all.
d) Unusually low number of negative user reviews
e) Five instances of direct personal experience

Against this we have some people you know have reported bad experiences with MSI boards tho I can't quite get a feel whether they are within the context of the discussion that being since Z77.

Im looking for the exact same reasons you are and I agree with the limitations thereon..... laughed at one user who complained about MSIs poor quality and then went in to say newegg refused the return of his physically damaged CPU socket.

Look at the JD Power awards for Porsche and you'd be surprised about the number of complaints .... is this because the cards have lotta problems or is this because the owner has higher expectations after laying out $90k ?

But the qualifications on the data aside, it does not mean it is totally useless.......yes they are certainly price sensitive . I purposely picked two closely priced boards (well earlier today they were .... MSi is now sold out and $20 more) to do my initial comparison. (MSI G45 and Asus Z87-A) for exactly that reason.

When picking almost identically priced boards, is there a basis in logic that we can say makes one board more attractive to the technically ignorant ? So with price and stupidity out of the equation can we draw nothing from a 2 to 1 ratio of negative reviews ? I think we can .... we certainly have eliminated the caveats you mentioned..... though, as I have said repeatedly, it is by no means conclusive.

However..... taking the user feedback "d)" and looking at it in conjunction with

a) Unusually large number of awards / positive reviews
b) No evidence of widespread problem reports
c) Disparity in feature list comparison at price point
e) Five instances of direct personal experience
f) Inclusion of MIL spec components

Any one of those in and of itself would hardly be a conclusive argument .... but with all 6 together, and with only "hearsay" and pre Z77 experiences to the contrary, it sure seems like the stars are aligning for MSI .....at least in this in this generation and in this price segment.

However, my last nuild's user who chose MSI had a reason we haven't covered.... best installation video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvNnv7nh2Es

Guessing you mean giving MSI a shot at redemption, everyone I get a chance to get my hands on (that also goes for other no-buy mobos, I try and play with, various sets of DRAM, GPUs, drives, etc....just have seen anything to compel me to go spending money on them, I rather stick with, to me, proven manufactures.

As far as selling the most means it must be the cheapest - if you want to use that argument with anything then that means Asus is the Walmart of all Walmarts, as they sell more mobos across the board then anyone else, GB is still #2 and the Rock #3, MSI remains #4 and continues to lose ground to all of the above 3....so in effect, according to your Walmart theory they must all be cheap mobos, and if that's true then you're also saying manufacturers like Foxxcon, Jetway etc must be better

Your own comments about selling the most means the cheapest, well the MSI Z77 45 that you brought up you said

"MSI Z77 G45 - 12% 2 eggs or less"

yet the Egg shows 27% 2 eggs or less,

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130645

it also shows a total of 159 reviews 55% of 5 Eggs
-----------------------
The comparable priced Rock Z77 Extreme 4

2 Egg ratings or less 23% (less)
5 Egg rating 56% (better)
and 904 total reviews which includes 502 5 Egg ratings, so over 3 times (5 star ratings alone) as MSI's total 159 reviews of all types

and yet you say "I'm going with the guy who has the best numbers"

You also are and have continually missed the point that I am not saying their products suck, in most every instance I recommend against them I point out the poor QC (Quality Control)...But also I see no sense in spending money on them when chances are better than average from what I have seen that there will be a problem with it, and when there is with a client build, it's my pocket that suffers....

I do find the comment on a pile of motherboards in the closet intriguing, are these new , old, dead? I know if I build multiple rigs on an order I often pick up an extra mobo, SSD, CPU, etc as a just in case, but normally get rid of them one way or another after a couple months.....overall I've come to find most anything electronic is most likely to fail within the first 60 days from manufacturing defects or poor QC.

I again would reiterate, I'm glad you've had good luck with them and I would love to take you up on your comment, that you said you ought to have MSI send me a board - would love it, and if any good would recommend them (even more so when I saw their QC had/has improves)

'Network' folks, those would be builders, consultants, other's who have successful businesses, most larger than mine, IT pros I mention consist of IT execs and managers that have come up from the ranks and know hardware as well as a number of execs and managers with various manufacturers at Intel, MS, AMD, nVidia, and others - not the met a guy who knew a guy like you try and imply

As far as having your experience (have no idea what that is) but trust me, while I hope to be building and computing 30 years from now, who knows, my experience with systems will hit 33 years in October, so I've been in PCs before the term was coined.

Look again....I was comparing two current generation comparably priced Z87 boards, mixing generations would make no sense

Asus Z87-A with the Z87 G45

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130693
MSI G45 7 % 2 eggs / 5% 1 egg

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131981
Asus Z87-A 17% 2 eggs / 7 % 1 egg

That's 24 to 12 or 2:1

in most every instance I recommend against them I point out the poor QC (Quality Control)...But also I see no sense in spending money on them when chances are better than average from what I have seen that there will be a problem with it, and when there is with a client build, it's my pocket that suffers....

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Thatz my issue.... What are your examples of poor quality control since they started using MIL spec components (Z77 / Z87) ? What Z87 / Z77 boards "have you seen" ? I don't understand why your experiences / input prior to their retooling has such an impact on what they make today. As I said earlier.....just cause the Mets sucked in 1962, they sure didn't suck in 1969 when they won 100 games. The label on the board and the logo on the baseball cap don't make the success or failure, it's the components of the team and the components on the board that determine quality and performance. That can change in a year.....Change the team makeup, win the world series.... change to Mil Spec components, offer more features, win dozens of awards.

I do find the comment on a pile of motherboards in the closet intriguing, are these new , old, dead?

Click to expand...

I thought I was clear.... tho I did have that message go "poof" on me twice .... meybe I lost something ..... Asrock back in P8P67 days were 1 and 2 year warrantees... had peeps bring in dead systems with bulging caps / other issues that could not be returned cause they were 2 months past the chinsy warranty period. I never experienced a post warranty MoBo failure before as most systems .... if they make it 3 years, they seem to last 4ever and get handed down 2 or 3 times before they become useless. I originally saved them cause i said I would one day replace the caps.....(I used to modify hi end audio tube amps / preamps as a hobby) .... it later dawned on me that running to the hardware store to replace my soldering iron tip wasn't worth the effort for a 18 month old board that cost $130 new....

Also have one with a RAM slot that came off with a RAM module... The RAM experience did cost me as I was reseating the RAM as a troubleshooting step when it happened. Just cost me time as I had an equivalent Gigabyte board left here when someone asked me to replace his single GFX slot board when he wanted to go SLI. Again, was gonna solder that ah heck back in place but never found reason to do so.

As far as having your experience (have no idea what that is) but trust me, while I hope to be building and computing 30 years from now, who knows, my experience with systems will hit 33 years in October, so I've been in PCs before the term was coined

Click to expand...

.

My 1st one that I owned was a Wang APC ($6k) that I bought in 1985 .... felt so cutting edge w/ my 8088 when everyone else had a measly 8086

The company I had worked for some years before switched from Wangs to IBM 286s and asked me to haul off a dozen or so of the old Wang's.... I turned about 6 of em into working units.....as to the original one ..... Ever hear of Four Seasons Greenhouses ? Every one of them was designed with a structural engineering program on that 1985 Wang.... I continued to use that program occassionally (DOS 3.1 as I recall) thru 2006 ..... they sure don't make em like they used to huh ?

Now you are talking Asus;

your original showed

ASRock Z77 Extreme11 - 55% 1 egg
ASRock Z77 WS - 66% 2 eggs or less
ASRock Fatal1ty Z77 - 25% 2 eggs or less
Extreme 6 - 24% 2 eggs or less
Extreme 4 - 23% 2 eggs or less

MSI Z87 G45 - 12% 2 eggs or less
MSI Z77 G45 - 12% 2 eggs or less
MSI Z87 GD-65 - 18% 2 eggs or less
MSI Z77 GD65 - 21% 2 eggs or less

No Asus mentioned

The IBM 8088 PC was released in 1983 on PC DOS 2.0

MSI was advertising the so called Mil Spec Componants even back with the P^& over a year before the Z77 as you quote, and back even further do you remember the 1156 mobos? mid 2009 I believe was when they started with this mil spec component junk, actuall that was after sales had already started slifing and they were digging for things to advertise to revitalize sales, believe the Rock passed them within about a year after they started that campaign, so that argument doesn't wash as far as retooling since it's off a couple of years, were you evenusing them back then, most I know took it as a joke as the military was primarily using off the shelf PCs back then bought through GSA (pretty much as they are now)

That's not "the original". Go 2 posts higher ..... This is

G45 has a 81% 4 eggs or greater user experience rating w/ 10% 2 eggs or less / Z87-A has 69% 4 eggs or greater w/ 24% 2 eggs or less. Looking at the bad eggs, by that kind of logic is it safe to conclude that Asus is 2.4 times worse than MSI ?????

Click to expand...

Been a 2% shift since the post

I believe was when they started with this mil spec component junk

Click to expand...

I haven't heard ya complain about Asus' MIL spec boards. Is it only MSI's boards that has "MIL spec junk" or are the Asus's MIL Spec boards like the highly regarded Sabertooth, Gryphon, Formula all junk too ? Asus claims it's these components that make their boards such good overclockers and serves as a basis for their 5 year warranty.

Super Ferrite Chokes that run at up to 35 degree Celsius lower temperatures, have a 30% higher current handling capacity, and a 20% improvement in power efficiency has no value ????

Tantalum filled Hi-C Caps that are are up to 93% efficient have no value ?

"Dark Capacitors" that feature Lower ESR and a ten-year lifespan have no value?

I notice that MIL Spec boards from Asus and MSI doing perty well sitting in top spots on various sites overclocking charts