I am wondering if it is possible to establish an internet free of ISPs. Anyone help? So like in the early days, if I know the phone number of the PC that is the server where the file I want is I can use a modem to access it. So you would need an open source list of the website addresses and their phone numbers (like DNS) and a phone line. Why would this not work? What am I missing? And how could it be made to work?
ISP free internet
- Thread starter mrejb
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- Mar 16, 2013
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Who installs and maintains the wires leading to your house? Who pays for the bandwidth?
A 'mesh network' has been theorized. But not much has really dome of that concept yet, except in limited circumstances.
A 'mesh network' has been theorized. But not much has really dome of that concept yet, except in limited circumstances.
- Mar 16, 2013
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And the reason it worked 'in the early days', was because the phone company was doing the service of today's ISP. They provided you a dial tone, and installed and maintained the equipment.
There was not a direct wire from your modem to a modem on a server somewhere. It went through the phone company, AKA your ISP.
There was not a direct wire from your modem to a modem on a server somewhere. It went through the phone company, AKA your ISP.
So presumably we have phone lines so the infrastructure is there and they are maintained by the telephone companies for making telephone conversations. So if I understand you, the call I make to dial up another PC goes to the phone company and is sent where I want it to go. But how is this different from making a voice call? It's a passive involvement of the phone companies as far as I am aware. Like sending a fax. This doesn't seem to be a reason not to do it. Still not entirely convinced that this cannot be done. Perhaps I'll dig out my old modems and see if I can get it working.
- Mar 16, 2013
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It's not different than a voice call. Same phone line. It's just modem to modem, instead of person to person.
And it is not 'passive', any more than than your existing ISP is not 'passive'. The phone company switches and computers do a whole lot you don't see during a landline phone call.
Further...back in the old days, if you dialed up a BSS or other server, you monopolized that modem line. That server would have to have a many line modem (or many of those) to allow multiple people to connect at the same time.
AOL, for instance, had rooms literally full of modems, all around the country. To allow multiple to connect at once from a certain area.
The phone company was your "ISP". You paid them, they provided a service - the dial tone. Just like now, except with your cable or fiber ISP, there is no audible dial tone.
Lastly...do you really want to go back to dial up speeds? I know I wouldn't.
Thanks. I feel I'm getting somewhere. You see nothing you have said has suggested it cannot be done. You have described problems that will be encountered along the way and would need to be solved, not anything that would stop it from happening. I think technology has changed since the old days, with fibreoptics so maybe you can avoid hogging the lines, and of course there is mobile phone technology to consider. For example, I have built a prototype of a similar system that uses sms to turn any mobile into a mini server but as a text is only 140 characters it's of limited use.
So to make the modem system work you would need a modem, a phone line and a modified browser. Oh and the DNS list of phone numbers. That would be the problem as you would either have to know the number, say in the link, or keep a database of the DNS on every PC, or call up a central server that has this every time you need to find the number. That would be an issue. But again any problem can be overcome with clever motivated people.
If it became popular then there is no reason that phone companies would look to supplying the need, such as allowing broadband cables to be used for this. The reason for wanting to do this of course is to try to stop ISPs from being able to monitor what people are doing, or having too much power, so it's political, democratic, but then I guess phone companies would eventually be able to do the snooping. So, perhaps there's nothing to gain from doing it. And cost wise, you would have to pay for each call which may make it pricey. Still it would be fun to make it work.
So to make the modem system work you would need a modem, a phone line and a modified browser. Oh and the DNS list of phone numbers. That would be the problem as you would either have to know the number, say in the link, or keep a database of the DNS on every PC, or call up a central server that has this every time you need to find the number. That would be an issue. But again any problem can be overcome with clever motivated people.
If it became popular then there is no reason that phone companies would look to supplying the need, such as allowing broadband cables to be used for this. The reason for wanting to do this of course is to try to stop ISPs from being able to monitor what people are doing, or having too much power, so it's political, democratic, but then I guess phone companies would eventually be able to do the snooping. So, perhaps there's nothing to gain from doing it. And cost wise, you would have to pay for each call which may make it pricey. Still it would be fun to make it work.
- Mar 16, 2013
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This is what have now. If you want to connect to Google, you don't type in 74.125.228.116. You type in www.google.com. The DNS servers at your ISP, and ultimately the DNS root servers, translate that to the actual 'address' (phone number) of 74.125.228.116.
And they take care of the translation when that IP address changes. And it does change. So does yours and mine. Unlike a landline phone number.
I'm still not quite sure what you're looking for here. Doing away with the ISP? You've always had an "ISP". It just used to be called 'the phone company'. Now, it is Cox/Comcast/Verizon/etc.
OK so let me clarify. Let's separate the two things that ISPs do. There is the telecommunications part. They are the phone companies who own the wires we use for telephone calls and broadband. They also allow access to the internet e.g. by use of DNS. However you have to pay to use them for access to the internet. Also they have power and control over who can access, and they can read your emails and snoop on you and shop you if you are doing anything the government doesn't like. The ISP stands between me and the internet. Not good.
If instead there was a separate internet, not the one that currently exists, but where any PC becomes a server by giving out its phone number for example, then there is no need for the ISPs. I only need the wires. I can pay only for that. They cannot read my emails unless they intercept my phone calls. Not that I have anything to hide you understand, but that's not the point.
The DNS I mention is a version that could translate a more human friendly address into a phone number like the IP address, just like the current DNS.
Or then again an alternative question might be how could a system be set up to allow people free access to the internet as it stands now by bypassing the ISPs, but that is not a question I really want to ask. Or then again why do ISPs exist at all when there may be free (monetary and politically) alternatives to getting access to the internet?
I suppose another way to think about the idea is as a global intranet.
I guess the reasons aren't that important - the question I asked was how could it be done. Getting off topic here. I think as I said I will just have to have a go myself and see what happens.
If instead there was a separate internet, not the one that currently exists, but where any PC becomes a server by giving out its phone number for example, then there is no need for the ISPs. I only need the wires. I can pay only for that. They cannot read my emails unless they intercept my phone calls. Not that I have anything to hide you understand, but that's not the point.
The DNS I mention is a version that could translate a more human friendly address into a phone number like the IP address, just like the current DNS.
Or then again an alternative question might be how could a system be set up to allow people free access to the internet as it stands now by bypassing the ISPs, but that is not a question I really want to ask. Or then again why do ISPs exist at all when there may be free (monetary and politically) alternatives to getting access to the internet?
I suppose another way to think about the idea is as a global intranet.
I guess the reasons aren't that important - the question I asked was how could it be done. Getting off topic here. I think as I said I will just have to have a go myself and see what happens.
bleijendeckers
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- Sep 14, 2013
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I don't think phone lines are that harder to tap then internet lines. If the world would massively shift to only using phone lines (which is in my opinion never going to happen) those phone lines will be modified to easily tap datastreams. The information that floods trough the phone lines has to go trough switching centers just as well as internet traffic flows trough your ISP's router(s). As such I see no actual difference.
Just to add, phone companies work digital nowadays, so the phone signal is actually a digital signal transported trough phone company routers and fiberoptic lines. I even think both phone- and internetdata traverse the same fiberoptic cables. At least here in the netherlands the phone company does no longer use a dedicated copper line from one phone to the other (like in the old days, PSTN).
My advice, encrypt your mail and keep using your regular ISP
Just to add, phone companies work digital nowadays, so the phone signal is actually a digital signal transported trough phone company routers and fiberoptic lines. I even think both phone- and internetdata traverse the same fiberoptic cables. At least here in the netherlands the phone company does no longer use a dedicated copper line from one phone to the other (like in the old days, PSTN).
My advice, encrypt your mail and keep using your regular ISP
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