Help me decide please

Plasmio

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I have a GTX 660 and I'm looking to upgrade. I could buy any card I want, but I don't need to spend that much money and I don't WANT to spend over 300$ on one. I was comparing a 7970 to a 680 and I've heard the new AMD drivers allow the 7970 to outperform the 680. The 7970 is also cheaper. How well does a 7870 XT or 7870 compare to a 660? I'll also be replacing my Phenom with either an 8320 or i5 3570k depending on how much I spend on my GPU, so I'd like to spend as little as possible on it, but still get noticeably better performance than my 660.
 
Solution

In this case, yes. If you are PS2 addicted, then sli wont be good https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/planetside-2-doesnt-support-sli.99816/
read second comment, small but informative. So go for a cpu but if you will go for 4670k (mos suitable for gaming), make sure that your mobo is LGA 1150 (supports...

Jaxem

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a 7870 is better than a 660, and an XT would be quite a bit better than a 660, i don't know that the 7970 will beat the 680 even with new drivers, but it's a much better buy right now (amazing performance/$ ratio).
 
The drivers issue is red herring .... everybody comes out with new drivers....new driver comes out on Tuesday and someone else is the new champ until other guy comes out with their new drivers on Thursday. Here's one way to check....the faster card won't be cheaper than the slower card ( at least for any length of time) otherwise no one but a "brand name bigot" would ever buy the more expensive one.

The 7970 is now "last generation" so ya may wanna wait for the new card reviews before buying a new card.
 
Upgrading a 660 to a less than $300 card may not be the best move at this moment, unless you can sell the 660. I don't know if any upgrade would be worth the $300 spent, unless you consider getting a 2nd 660, but then going SLI isn't ideal, although still pretty good. If you can sell the 660, then upgrading to a 7950 or 7970 may be a pretty good deal, or a 760.
 

Plasmio

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I've considered selling it. If I didn't sell it, I'd reuse it in another build. I know the 760 is a little better than a 660 ti, but it's about 300$ and I'm not sure whether or not it's better than a 7970, which can also be purchased for about 300$. I'm not sure what to do now. Should I just get an i7 or i5 for now and wait on the card until new ones are released?
 

rubidium

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You can get another gtx 660 (around 220$) for nearly half the price of the gtx 680 (around 440$) and have higher performance than it with its sli http://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=844&page=15 , i think this is the best solution for you, all of the cards mentioned (hd 7870, 7950, gtx 760) are really not worth the whole new money if you already own a gtx 660, they are bought by gamers who have pretty old and outdated card (as me i had a hd 4850). However, sli might need higher psu and maybe a cooler if you dont have good airflow.
 

rubidium

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If you are willing to wait a bit, AMD will release new CPUs with new socket in Q1 2014 as well. If you want to hit a combo of new AMD cpus and gpus. If that is a bit long for you, i dont recommend upgrading your gpu now as yours now is very decent and if you sli it(as i said before and insist on it), it will be a monster. HD 7970 is nearly worth it, but if you intend to sell your gtx 660, then holding on for the new GPUs of AMD will be better. And no, i dont recommend you but the cpu and wait for the gpu, maybe the gpu will have a best cpu match from AMD, what will you do then? i suggest building all of your rig at a time.
 

rubidium

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What kind of games do you play? http://www.geforce.com/games-applications/technology/sli?keys=&sort_bef_combine=%20&sort_order=&sort_by=
If you checked this, you will nearly find every title there! Maybe gta iv is an exception.
 

Plasmio

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Waiting until 2014 is a bit too long for me with my current build. I'm using a Phenom 965 that bottlenecks a lot of the games I play, especially World of Tanks and Planetside 2. I think what I should do is get an i5 4670k or 3570k so I don't get bottlenecked anymore and wait until I find a better deal when it comes to a GPU. That list convinced me a bit more to do SLI since I see the games there that I play.
 

rubidium

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In this case, yes. If you are PS2 addicted, then sli wont be good https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/planetside-2-doesnt-support-sli.99816/
read second comment, small but informative. So go for a cpu but if you will go for 4670k (mos suitable for gaming), make sure that your mobo is LGA 1150 (supports haswell gen), although i suspect that, as it was running phenom.
 
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Plasmio

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I have one more question. Why is SLI bad for Planetside 2 since it supports it?
 

rubidium

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As far as i am concerned, using sli increases number of info coming out of the gpu, more rendering more textures and so on. This will put extra and huge load on the cpu. Since PS2 is a cpu intensive game (most of the fps lags encountered by players is due to lack of cpu power, especially in huge battles), sli will take more of the cpu, not much of the cpu will be left for the game, while the game needs cpu (in this case) more than it needs the gpu. Maybe thats why you werent getting decent fps(just a guess) with a decent card as the gtx 660, due to cpu. Hope this helped.

 


I think you overestimate how much of a load SLI has on the CPU. SLI does add a tiny bit of extra overhead, but I've never seen a game lose more than 5% performance, even when a game is completely CPU bound. Here is a Planetside 2 benchmark: http://forums.videocardz.com/topic/188-planetside-2-performance-test/

Notice how the 690, which is essentially 680 SLI, is faster than a single 680, although not a lot faster, so clearly the 690 is about as much as you can gain from a GPU. Crossfire has a little more overhead, but even then, it's not that bad.

Here is an example of a game completely CPU bottlenecked, even with a single 680, so you can see how SLI lowers performance:
image011.png


While not ideal, you are not losing a tremendous amount of performance from SLI overhead.
 

Plasmio

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That being said, is an i5 3570k or 4670k powerful enough for 660 SLI?
 
Looking at the benchmarks on the Planetside2 link I posted there, it will provide more performance than with 1 660, but it may bottleneck it a little still at stock speeds. With a moderate OC, it shouldn't bottleneck much at all, just get a decent aftermarket HSF with either of those i5 choices.
 

Plasmio

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I never really play at maximum resolution on any game. I play Planetside 2 at 720p while my monitor is 1080p. Will that make enough of a difference?
Edit: I also have a hyper 212 already installed on my Phenom, so I could just use the Intel mount on the i5
 


Playing at a reduced resolution will more quickly hit a CPU bottleneck. When you hit a CPU bottleneck, increasing GPU settings will not slow down FPS until you no longer have a CPU bottleneck.
 

rubidium

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Actually, i thought (just a thought) like you that the sli wont put so much load on the cpu, as many people use them and dont complain from this as a main issue. However, i read on their froums that the game DOES NOT FAVOR sli, and when i read the explanation for this, i read what i wrote previously, they just said it without benchmarks or accurate numerical value, so i wasnt able to estimate the percentage of the effect of sli on performance, thats it. Just wanted to ask a question, one friend told me that the i7 were better for sli setups than the i5, so if thats right, maybe the above benchmark wont be the best one for the op, as he intends to buy an i5.
 

Plasmio

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Doesn't it kinda go without saying that the more powerful CPU will go better with SLI setups? I can still go with an i7 3770k or 4770k if it means a big difference in performance with SLI. I'm not limited on money, I just didn't think it was necessary to spend another 100$ or so for the i7, but now I'm considering it.
 


I personally would go with the i7. The main reason I say this, is because the new consoles are 8 cores, which means more future games may start supporting the extra cores. I have also found that due to some utilities, and gaming software I run along side gaming, HT actually helps out performance.

Then there is the experience I've had with my last CPU, the i7 920, which I still use because it was such a great chip, with some OCing, it has lasted a very long time and still very competitive with todays CPU's.
 

rubidium

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I really dont suggest getting an i7 if this pc, after some searching in threads, i found that the 4670k can easily handle any card and this even includes the gtx 660 sli. The i7 is better than the i5, as for the hyperthreading, but this is for programs that use it, its not useful in gaming . i7 will be useful for video editing, 3d modelling and more cpu intensive and hungry programs. About upcoming consoles, its true that they have 8 cores BUT they are at lower clock speed PLUS it will take time for the devs to code the game to make use of the 8 cores (maybe from 1 to 2 years). Until that time, you can get an i5 and enjoy your experience with its super single core performance which most games needs these days and get a better gpu with the invested money (100$), as games are going to be more gpu bound gradually. Make sure to get the 4th gen haswell of cpus, just in case you wanted to upgrade it in 1 or 2 years, if you got ivy bridge, you will be forced to buy a new mobo for new socket as well. Heop this helped.
 


Here is where the internet lies a lot. The old parroting effect. One person says no games uses more than 4 threads, they see a list of 10 games, mostly older, and they prove that point, and it becomes a fact. The problem is, there are games that use more than 4 threads. Just not a lot of games, but it is becoming more common than in the past and with consoles having 8 cores now, you would expect it to become more common, especially since, as you said, they are slower cores. The slower the cores, the more need they have to use the extra cores (not the other way around), as each one is slower by default.

That said, i5's are capable gaming CPU's, but when you are gaming, using your Logitech Gaming Software for your macros, and possibly playing music in the background, I have found you gain performance with HT on.

While an i5 is not a problem, the i7 has advantages. He said money is not an issue, so I personally would spend the extra money so you can last a bit longer before another upgrade, but if money is an issue, by all means, buy an i5.
 

rubidium

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Ok, i dont want to start a war. so far in this forum, i havent had any bad relationships with anyone and i dont want to have. THIS POST IS NOT MEANT TO BE OFFENSIVE, and i dont want to show that im the best cpu expert here, cause im not. I will be more organized

1) About ps4, it is not a debate. the i5-4670k can blow it out easily. You say it has more cores, yes but they are at low speeds, the i5 has double its speed, it has mych more raw cpu performance, more efficiency/ amount of data streamed per core.

2) About the i7 vs i5, from the games that utilises more than 4 cores, i found arma II a good game, its very cpu intensive and uses as much cores as available, http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2012/05/01/intel-core-i5-3570k-cpu-review/6 if you check this out, you will see that the difference between i5 and i7 is not noticeable and negligible, here is arma 3, which is also cpu intensive http://www.techspot.com/review/712-arma-3-benchmarks/page5.html and here is battlefield 3 endgame on 64 players server (theses are mose games claimed to use more than 4 cores) http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2307366 again the fps difference is not significant Thats what i meant by it would be a waste of money when spending extra 100$ on an i7, even if he had them ready, he can get a better gpu OR save them up for his next build or just having some real life with them!

3) As a said and will always say, for devs to make a game uses 8 cores efficiently (which means that the game will be bottlenecked by an i5 and will perform better on an 8 core cpu, it will take long time. I assume you know threadable and non threadable code. For the games to create a perfect threadable code, this will take LONG time, there are lot of interdependant variables in the game which cannot be processed until other results are calculated, this makes it essential for devs to think of a new way for writing a game code to utilize 8 cores more efficiently and create a significant difference between numbers of codes available

4) Hyperthreading is of no benefit in gaming, here is some benchmarks for hyperthreading (the games are bit old but these are the available in the benchmark) http://www.overclock.net/t/671977/hyperthreading-in-games .

5) Maybe you are right about things other than gaming, about music and so on, all i know about this that it needs more ram and 8 gb ddr3 1600mhz ram is more than enough for these alt tabs and other tasks.
 


1) Yes, the i5 is faster, by a lot, but PC users want twice the FPS at least. While the PS4 is running at 30 FPS with its 8 cores, you will be wanting 60 or higher FPS on your PC, so you will likely want to take advantage of everything you can. You also have to consider that a console will have more efficiency.

2) $100 extra for 15% more performance over 4-5 years may or may not be worth it. I think it is, because after a couple years, that 15% can be the difference between smooth game play and a few hickups. That is especially important if 120hz gaming is your thing. It may not be worth it to you, but that is a personal choice. I gave my choice, you gave yours.

3) Right now, there are not many games that use more, but CPU's these days, last 4-5 years before they need to be upgraded. This will likely change in time. Especially now that consoles have 8 cores in them. I don't expect every game to use it, but the most demanding games already show improvements up to 6 cores now. These are the games that a high end CPU is needed now. It may be uncommon now, but you should expect a lot of future game engines to use more cores more often.

4) HT is not useful very often, but HT does boost a few games now. BF3 on 64 man maps do show improvements. Resident Evil 5 show improvement and so does Metro 2033. Those are ones I've tested and have seen benchmarks online. You can expect 10-15% boosts in performance on most any game that uses more than 4 cores. HT does not require special code to use, though it often requires some optimizing in some game engines, but not for others (BF3 at launch had issues due to poor optimizations).

The point isn't that an i5 is a bad choice. It is a good CPU. You even mentioned before that you should use an i7 with SLI, which the OP wants to use, though I'm not sure how much it really helps. I'm just saying the OP obviously wants to prepare for the future, only mentioned the i5 because he was told the i7 made 0 difference. This is why I said if it were me, I'd get the i7, but wouldn't care if he got an i5. I'd rather have HT than not. $100 for a CPU that will last 4+ years is worth it to me.