Questions about Watercooling and OCing my next rig.

RzarEater · Oct 31, 2013

So I've never watercooled before. I've only just begun to OC my GPU, and I probably won't OC my CPU very much, as I only have the stock fan, but decent airflow, at least not until my next rig.

I'm still deciding on a case, or whether I will try to use my current Antec Eleven Hundred, mod it, or come up with a scratch build.

I know that venturing into watercooling is quite an expensive endevour. This will not occur in the next few weeks, or even the next few months, I plan to slowly accumulate all the parts I need for a good watercooled rig. So honestly the cost isn't really an issue.

I will probably be keeping most of my current parts, but I know of several things I will be upgrading.

I currently have:
Case - Antec Eleven Hundred (NOT the new illusion)
CPU - Core i5 3570k - keeping
MOBO - GIGABYTE GA-Z77-D3H LGA 1155 Intel Z77 - replacing
GPU - EVGA 01G-P3-1460-KR 560 (Fermi) - replacing
RAM - 32 GB (4x8GB) Corsair Vengence DDR3 1600 - keeping
PSU - Corsair Professional Gold AX 750

I plan to replace my 560 with a pair of 7950s or 7970s, once the price drops. Put them in crossfire, and OC the hell out of em, but since I want to do this, I must also keep them cool and I figured I'd also OC that CPU while I'm at it.

I guess my questions boil down to what brands are the best for each of the pieces of a water loop, pump, resevoirs, rad, and so on?
What sites for the US are the best for buying the parts?
Should I get a new case, stick with my Antec Eleven Hundred, mod it, or come up with a scratch build?

Edit: At this point I can't really give a "Best Answer" as I've two incredibly helpful people give me a ton of advice, so I don't want to choose between Jake Wenta or manofchalk. If anything this thread turned into more of a discussion than it was a question to begin with. Anyways, I wanted any would be readers of this thread to get an idea of what I came up with through my own research after being prompted and through the ideas and advice of much more experienced members of the community.

If you're looking for voltage and clock speed tips and tricks, this is not the thread for you. This was a lot of theoretical water cooling discussion.

Unfortunately the Antec Eleven Hundred is not at all built for custom water cooling in mind, as there is only 'stock' space for a dual 120mm radiator on the side window, or if you want to remove the hdd cage, you can use the front port as a 2nd dual 120mm radiator mounting point.

Several other cases were discussed that are better for custom water cooling loops, Corsair 900D, or 800D, Coolermaster HAF-Stacker, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, Caselabs, or Mountain Mods. Or keeping whatever current case you have, and buying a cheap generic case and gutting it, in order to mod it with all your needed Radiators for a "rad-box"

I've actually decided that I'd like to design a scratch desk build, in the same vein as the L3P Razer Desk or the Cross by Red Harbringer. At some point there may be a build log for it, but honestly I wouldn't hold your breath for too long, as it's pretty much a pipe dream. I've also had a 2nd idea that I've drawn up, a full size tower, trying to correct all the issues I had with other cases, with an aesthetic I like.

I'll be going with as high CFM fans I can get while sticking with low RPM for low noise. These will be used for rad fans for push or pull configurations. Probably from Corsair, Noctua, Cougar, Phantek, or Xigametek. As I already have some Cougars, I may continue the theme, but we shall see. I will be trying for a 'Positive Pressure' build, meaning slightly more intake CFM as opposed to venting CFM, as that will limit the amount of dust and cat hair that can enter my system. Along with a strong recommendation for dust filters and keeping the system up off the floor, particularly carpeted floor.

From what I read, a D5 water pump, specifically the Swiftech MCP655 with variable speed is the best option for a water pump. But keep in mind that pump without a conversion top has 1/2" barbs or G1/4" threading.

Tubing seems to be very much a personal preference, color, wall thickness, material type and the like are all up to each person, though some tubing has a higher chance of stiffening and becoming brittle. I'll likely go with PrimoChill PrimoFlex Advanced LRT 1/2" ID 3/4" OD, color tbd, distilled water and a biocide on the recommendation of Linus from LinusTechTips

Solid Copper CPU blocks keep it the coolest. The Koolance 380i is supposed the best, but the contributors both seem to like the XSPC Raystorm

No real discussion about radiators has occurred beyond copper ones are good, but expensive.

No talks about reservoirs.

No talks about thermal pastes

GPU Water Blocks are very specific to each card, and there could be variations from the reference card, which can result in one block not fitting if you aren't careful.

Choosing between compression fittings and barbed fittings is all personal preference, as they do the same work, but compression fittings are considered a better aesthetic, but cost a bit more.

General brands to look at when looking into water cooling are XSPC, Swiftech, EK, Phobya, Heatkiller, and Alphacool.

US distribution sites to take a look at are FrozenCPU or PerformancePCs

I also like how my edit is longer than my original post.

manofchalk · Nov 1, 2013

Whether to keep the case comes down to how much of the rig you want to water-cool.
Just the CPU and you'l be fine with your Antec, including the GPU's as well you would want something more in line with a 900D.

Brands to go for with water-cooling, really all of the big names (XSPC, Swiftech, EK, Phobya, Heatkiller, Alphacool) are all fine to use. Companies that make low end components as you can imagine dont last long in a field like custom water-cooling.
Sites in the US, FrozenCPU and PerformancePC's are the big two that I know.

I suggest you read through this, will teach you all the theory behind water-cooling.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/277130-29-read-first-watercooling-sticky

Jake Wenta · Nov 1, 2013

manofchalk :

Maybe not, if he gets the Pumps that sit in 5.25" slots then he won't need a new case-saving money for his Rig.
For Example one of these:
Pump&Res

manofchalk · Nov 1, 2013

I was thinking radiator space when I made my comment on the case, the Eleven Hunderd only supports a 240mm (I think, usually 200mm fan mounts are have 240mm mounts but doesnt explicitly say) at the top of the case and a 140mm at the back. Nowhere near enough to get for a CPU and two graphics cards.
In that situation you would either have to gut the front drive cages to get access to the front 240mm (giving 240+240mm rad space, cutting it fine IMO) or externally mount if he wants to keep the Antec.

Jake Wenta · Nov 1, 2013

manofchalk :

Ah yes. I believe they make a radiator pump res combo too as well if I'm not mistaking, but I doubt they cool as efficiently. But he have a radiator for the GPU on the side panel.and depending how much cooling for his CPU he wants. AIO, or a top rad or dual rad config for exhause top and back. (The possibilities with custom loops

)
Or even do as I did to my case (different case but same concept) add a fan slot on top for dual 140mm)

RzarEater · Nov 1, 2013

I want to water cool the CPU and both of the GPUs that I want to get. I like the Antec, as when I got it, it was my first build, it was big, allowed for a lot of airflow and a lot of expansion is/was possible. But unfortunately, I've realized that I've made many mistakes when it comes to build, including the inability to upgrade to watercooling, if I so desired.

manofchalk said it right, when I'd have to rip out my hard drive cage in order to mount a rad to the front. I've also already used all 3 of my 5.25" bays.

My issue with the entire line of corsair obsidian series, is that with each case, there is just something about it, that I really don't like. But with the 900D, my only real issue, is that I dislike that IO cover on the front panel, it just seems gimicky and cheap, but it could be aluminum and not cheap at all, I just don't know.

That said, with the 900D, would it be possible to isolate the bottom section of the case that houses the power supply to house the power supply, pump, and a pair of 480mm rads, or a 480 and a 240, depending on if PSU gets in the way, with a push on 1 side, and pull on the other. And by isolate, I mean insert a piece of aluminum or steel (if not included already) in between the areas, with a pair of water tube pass-throughs.

Jake Wenta · Nov 1, 2013

Here's a video of a 900D build. (It's not the best, but it gives you an idea of what's possible)
Video of 900D

manofchalk · Nov 1, 2013

There are other cases with similar capabilities to the 900D, though a bit less mainstream. Caselabs and Mountain Mods might have something for you, and the Coolermaster HAF-Stacker could also be an option.
You could also externally mount rads or build yourself a "rad-box". Buy a cheapo generic case, whip out some power tools and gut it completely so that it can hold all the rads you need, run some tubing from your Antec into it.

RzarEater · Nov 3, 2013

Honestly the option of keeping the radiators housed in a separate box from the rest of the computer hadn't even crossed my mind. I still like the idea of keeping everything together in a single case though. I really did like the video from LinusTechTips, I actually had just subscribed to them just a few days before. I wouldn't necessarily need quite the number of rads that they used, but I liked the ideas the video had.

My understanding is that a D5, is pretty much the only pump anyone recommends. He had his own recommendation in the video, which is a version of the D5, has 1/2" fittings, is that a common thing among all D5s or just that brand's? Also if I were to use 1/2" inner wall tubing, then I would not require a 'top' for the pump?

Over the last couple of days I've been reading a lot about the differences between cfm v static pressure for rad fans, and then positive v negative air pressure within a case. I know that static pressure is better for rads, however I have no idea what specs I'm supposed to be looking for.

Jake Wenta · Nov 3, 2013

Noctuas, Phantek, Xigametek, and Cougar make good Static Pressure fans off the top of my head. The more CFM the better, but also take into consideration the pressure. (For example: http://www.cougar-world.com/products/fans/cfd_black_hb_fan.html ) -I know it's not the best picture, but it shows their fans ^Pressure to ->CFM:

Things to take note of for fans, size. Will it fit, Some 140mm mount on 120mm sockets, some are 150-140, some are 20mm thick and others 35mm.
CFM, usually higher CFM means higher pressure, so higher is usually better. More pressure for pushing the air through the radiator. More CFM for pulling the air out. Try to keep the CFM pressure slightly higher intake for the case, and slightly less for exhaust. Another thing to note, RPM and DBa-higher RPM means higher noise usually. 3000+ tend to have a higher pitch hum, and high CFM fans tend to get loud. And if not loud, the air movement makes noise-not just the fan.
I may have missed a couple of things, but there are some good examples.
DBa:
Every 10 decibels is twice as loud. so 40 is 4 times as loud as 20 decibels, and 80 is 64 times as loud as 30 DBa.

Alot of people have theories. But studies have shown-according to Corsair and their testing- that keeping air pressure balanced proves to be the best cooling. But the difference is around 1*C. But the benefit of having slightly more intake (positive air pressure) is lessened dust build up.

My frined who cleans houses told me of a house where there are fans in every corner of every room, hallway, closet, EVERYWHERE lol. And said that there is not a spec of dust on anything. (So I might have to do that in my room lol!-it's hard to dust with all my wires and electronics)

manofchalk · Nov 3, 2013

Also, the Phanteks Enthoo Primo is another case to look into. The thing looks to be a beast for water-cooling and isnt as expensive/massive as the 900D.

Reference D5 tops have 1/2" barbs installed, though you can get some that have G1/4" threading from FrozenCPU if you want to use your own fittings.
If you used 1/2" (or 7/16", fits on 1/2" very tightly) ID tubing you wouldnt need anything to make it work with the pump.

Static Pressure is usually represented as "mmH20", what this means I'l admit I have no clue but more is better.

Jake Wenta · Nov 3, 2013

manofchalk :

"The millimeter of water (mmH2O) is defined as the pressure exerted at the base of a column of fluid. exactly 1 millimeter (mm) high, and the fluid density is exactly 1.004514556 gram per cubic centimeter (g/cm³), at a physical location where the gravity acceleration is exactly 9.80665 m/sec²"

-: http://www.aqua-calc.com/what-is/pressure/millimeter-of-water

Higher is better.
Flow Rate:
CFM-Cubic Feet per Minute.
Pressure:
mmH20-Millimeters of Water or Millimeters water column

http://martinsliquidlab.org/2013/02/18/why-static-pressure-max-flow-specs-are-poor-measures-of-fan-performance/

RzarEater · Nov 4, 2013

Well I currently have a few cougar fans, as I liked their aesthetic, as well as they got consistently good reviews. I have 3 of these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835553005 and the 4 pack of these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835553009 . Would these work well static pressure fans for a few rads, or would it be worth my money to get better fans for rad setups?

And while I know it would probably be deemed excessive, and probably more expensive than even the 900D, would building a set up like the Cross by Red Harbringer, or the L3P Razer Desk, http://www.l3p.nl/raz3r-d3sk/info-sponsors/ be a possibility that I could do? Cause I honestly think the build would be as much fun as the actual use of the desk. Also with a cat, and in the future cats and dogs, I think the all in one, enclosed setup, would be good for cable management beyond the standard management of cables in the case.

manofchalk · Nov 4, 2013

I think they would work fine, they seem to be fairly decent for rad usage. No doubt there are better fans, but it also comes down to whether the degree or two you would gain is worth spending for another set of fans.

I have been following the Cross Desk for a fair while and for a project actually designed a desk PC chassis (just designed, its only a 3D digital Model). If you have the cash to buy a Cross (Think its $2000 now that pre-orders are over) or the tradesman skills to create your own, I dont see why you shouldn't.

Jake Wenta · Nov 4, 2013

RzarEater :

Very nice, so you can use the CF-V12HB to push, and the others to pull.
You can always get more fans to push along side the CF's if you need more, but they'll do just fine.

Oh a desk build! If you make one, I'll love a build log to follow!

(I've seen a few, and they're neat projects)
(But in the end, you get a computer AND a desk :lol:
As for dust and animal-you'd want to follow the following guidelines:
Protected fans, especially exterior ones.

Computer off the floor-even by 3 inches, as intake will suck in hair and block airflow. (Don't forget about dust filters)

Did I mention dust filters? No really, they're important

Try to keep everything in the build and slightly positive air pressure.

As for cable management, try to get a splitter when possible-custom wiring is always the best route. Zipties-twist ties, clamps...etc are good for keeping wires neat, secure, and out of the way. -Try to make the wires disappear ASAP in a sense, for example:
The CPU power thast usually is on the top of the case, if you don't have a route hole behind it, go up and follow the top of the motherboard to a route hole. GPU wires, bring them back and down from behind the case, no down to the PSU...etc.
For fans, try to keep the wire to go out back when putting the fan in, and you can follow the fans to hide the wire-like:

(If I misunderstood your cable management question, please tell me).

RzarEater · Nov 4, 2013

So suddenly I have way more desire to build up a desk from scratch and have it house, not just my gaming PC, but also the NAS and the Home Media Server that I plan to build in the future. As an engineering student, I have limited income currently, so this is a pipe dream build currently. But I'll come up with a basic sketch and when I get the time I'll do a 3D rendering and see what people think. Also I'm pretty sure a custom build log would be a whole new thread. So i'll keep you in mind if I do come up with a good idea, and pm ya a link for the build log.

I meant the cable management coming from keyboard, mouse, monitors and the like. But I guess as a pet owner, a positive case pressure would be better. But still requiring dust filters.

But I guess back to one of my original questions, what are some of the best cpu/gpu waterblock brands and any recommendations for a D5 brand?

Jake Wenta · Nov 4, 2013

RzarEater :

Oh, this'll be nice! :bounce:

You can always get a Razer Naga Epic- I think it's called, where it has a stand that it chargers the mouse, but the mouse is wireless. (Looks pretty cool)
And keyboard, they have the same thing-stands that charge-but you probably want a good back-lit mechanical keyboard right?

(I have a Tesoro Durandal Ultimate-so there is only one cable, as some have two)

If making a desk, you can make a drawer that slides out and houses the keyboard-and hides it when closed/ That'll be pretty cool. But you'll need the front to open like a flap, and the drawrer to slide out so there won't be an uncomfortable position of the keyboard. Haard to explain, something like this:
_____
..........| Closed
--------|

_____
...........__ Opening
--------|
_____
........__Keyboard_
--------|\

Just an idea

Well better blocks are usually with copper material. Same with radiators-but they come with a nice price tag.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14274/ex-rad-306/Aquacomputer_Airplex_Modularity_System_360_Radiator_-_Copper_Fins_-_Dual_Circuit_33037.html

As for blocks:
You can't really go wrong with blocks really-it usually depends on its design. How much water actually passes over the plate, what material is the plate made of, how is the flow. That sort of thing.
You just have to make sure you use the right block for the right GPU and the right block for your CPU-because some of them only support AMD and some only Intel (Rare)-and some specific sockets.

For your CPU socket:
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g30/c325/s1118/list/p1/Liquid_Cooling-Water_Blocks_CPU_-_Socket-CPU_Socket_LGA115x-Page1.html

Copper is always better:
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14845/ex-blc-1039/XSPC_RayStorm_High_Performance_Acetal_CPU_Liquid_Cooling_Block_-_Special_Edition_Copper_Intel_Sockets_LGA_115x_1366_2011.html?tl=g30c325s1118

manofchalk · Nov 4, 2013

For on-the-desk cable management, my solution was to simply drill holes and run the cables on the underside of the desk. That and the way my desk is configured, cables arent an issue or eyesore for me.

http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o537/Manofchalk/IMG_20130302_212033_zps1ca52978.jpg
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o537/Manofchalk/IMG_20130302_212139_zps26e70ce4.jpg
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o537/Manofchalk/IMG_20130302_212226_zps1ae1ee89.jpg

The absolute best performance CPU block is the Koolance 380i I beleive, but if your after more value the XSPC Raystorm (what I use) is a good option. GPU Blocks is a bit more up in the air, they arent reviewed as much as CPU's so its not really known. Typically the one you get is mainly dictated by availability and price (and compatability if you have a non-reference card), I use a Heatkiller block for my 7970.

TheGoat Eater · Nov 4, 2013

It looks like you are replacing the Z77 mobo - if that is correct you should look at the Z77 MPOWER as it is a hell of an OCing board at a great price. I have a thread that I had started over at OCN before the release of it ( I get some MSI items pre-release ). It has some great info in it and you will see why many love/loved it .

http://www.overclock.net/t/1302731/msi-z77-mpower-owners-club-all-things-mpower/0_100

RzarEater · Nov 4, 2013

My issue with on-the-desk cable management isn't that I can't bundle up my cables, it's my little 'cable murder machine' (my 6 month old kitten) likes to play with cables, regardless of how well I bundle them. So I wanted to basically eliminate the on-the-desk cables for the desk build, but keeping them all in a hidden back section of the desk. http://imgur.com/a/5Wuet (also very preliminary sketches for desk project included in first picture) The keyboard issue may get resolved in a way similar to that, or I may go with a wireless solution and hide the keyboard on the side of the desk when not in use, though I honestly prefer wired keyboards. I currently have a logitech g510, and while I like the volume control wheel and lcd screen, I have no need for all of the 18 Gkeys, but it's not mechanical, which is something I actually like out of a keyboard. For the mouse I'm thinking the Razer Mamba instead of the Naga Epic, as I don't use macros enough to warrant a need for 12 buttons on the side of my mouse, and I have rather large fingers as it is, so just the back and forward buttons on the thumb side of the mouse, would be enough for me.

XSPC Raystorm CPU blocks seem to get very consistent usage from a lot of builds I see around. But Koolance is another name that comes up a lot. And I guess the GPU blocks will be a bigger concern when I actually own the card further on the down the line.

If money isn't really an issue, would you prefer to use barbed fittings, or would compression fittings be a better choice? Also thin (1/8") vs thick (1/4") wall tubing? Is the only difference between 1/4" v 3/8" v 1/2" inner wall tubing, the coolant flow rate, or does the thinner tubing also allow for tighter turns for smaller cases, so it would be less of an issue for me?

On the z77 mobo note, I am looking to change up my mobo, however, I have need for quite a few SATA connections, and the MPower has the same quantity and type that my current board has, which is the primary reason I want to upgrade.

Jake Wenta · Nov 4, 2013

RzarEater :

If you go with a desk build, you can route the cables into the desk and get it to an outlet with it being virtually invisible. As for monitors-you can make like a backplate to route your monitor power and video adapters in. Again just ideas

(Make a enclosed outlet inside the desk could help)
Cute wire cutter :lol:

If you go with acrylic tubing, I think you need acrylic specific fittings if I'm not mistaking. But the choice would be what look do you like more. Also, with compression I think you need to check them every week or two to make sure they're tight-I could be wrong though.

Another thing is routing through the walls or using these plates for example:

manofchalk · Nov 4, 2013

Barbed and Compressions do the same job just as well as each other, compression's just look better for a bit more cash.
The ID (Inner Diameter) of the tubing has no impact to performance as long as its above 1/4". Its largely personal preference, I use 7/16" tubing on 1/2" barbs (very tight seal). The size of the tubing wall can impact on how well it bends without kinking (thicker is better) but unless you care about utmost performance you can always get angled fittings to make straighter runs.

Jake Wenta · Nov 4, 2013

manofchalk :

With acrylic-they show them inserting a silicone rod inside the tube, heating it up and bending it to shape. This prevents kinks, which I thought was a pretty cool idea. But they used olive oil to slide it in, I don't know if I'd do that. :lol:

But yea, straighter-shorter runs is better. But if necessary go with the bend of the tube and don't fight it-or you'll end up kinking up the tobe or having flats which affects the flow.

RzarEater · Nov 4, 2013

I hope that the only cables visible with the desk would be the keyboard on the desk itself, and the power cable to the wall.

I'd prefer the look of the compression fittings, so I'll probably go with those. Is there a difference between a SLI fitting or a XFire fitting, or are they the same thing?

For a build like the desk, what kinds of tubing should be used? I don't know the difference between the different types, let alone the brands for each. My assumption is that if I were to use metal piping instead of a plastic type of tubing, I would have to be much, much more accurate with my distances, and the fittings required the set up. It would have a good clean look to it, but probably much more expensive.

Jake Wenta · Nov 4, 2013

RzarEater :

SLI is for Nvidia, xFire or Crossfire-is for AMD.
Tubing relies on how much money you want to invest and how much time you have. I will always prefer acrylic-just preference and aesthetic reasons. (And less fittings).
You can use copper pipes

I saw some build on linustechtips was pretty nice with his white and black scheme. BUT copper is EXPENSIVE lol.

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/38058-finished-project-cobalt-chromed-copper-piping-laser-etching-cable-sleeving-and-more/

Questions about Watercooling and OCing my next rig.

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