Graphics card audio vs Audio card audio

Steel111

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I found out that most HDMI output graphics card also have sound output along with the graphics output. But I was wondering how good this sound can be. Of course, many cards say they provide support for Dolby True HD and DTS master, but can they match the sound quality provided by sound cards like the asus Xonar?

If not, is there any way to combine both of them so as to get the output of the sound card through the HDMI output of the graphics card? (I have heard that through S/PDIF IN of the graphics card its possible, but now most of them do not have that input)
 
Solution
If you are going to be using any form of Analog output, and eventually all outputs become analog, as your ears aren't digital, quality matters. How much is up to the individual.

The best analog outputs are going to be found as far away from the computer as possible, usually on a home stereo amplifier type device.

In the long run, most sounds a computer is going to generate are pre-recorded. There is hardly anything being synthesized or created on the fly by the sound hardware. And in fact, since Windows Vista, the sound processing and mixing has been moved to software, to give greater flexibility in volume control and other added effects.

I think you need to ask yourself a few questions, concerning what you may want from your sound...

Metalrenok

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I think it actually depends on the display audio.. I use my 7950 hooked up through HDMI to my Sony HDTV and it sounds okay but it sounds waaaay better with my Logitech G430 headphones
So the audio card sound is better than the graphics card output
 
Did you really just use a comparison between the speakers on your television and a pair of above average headphones to determine the quality difference between sound on a graphics card and an add-in sound card?

The sound device integrated into graphics boards was put there to simplify getting sound to the HDMI interface. Most often it's going to be of a pre-encoded nature, such as with movies or music, therefore the sound device itself behaves mostly as a transport mechanism. If you don't like the quality, it's more likely the fault of the content you're playing, not the HD audio device in your graphics card.

Add-in and motherboard integrated sound solutions have analog outputs. That's their biggest differentiation. Much of the time, you are paying for the difference in analog signal quality, but there is also software support, such as DTS and DDL encoding.
 

Steel111

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If I understand you correctly, you are trying to imply that graphic cards just send the audio information from the file directly into the HDMI cable in digital format itself, doing no processing on it whatsoever. In contrast, the motherboard integrated-sound or a pci-express sound card gives the analog output after converting the Digital information in the file being played, to Analog (maybe some signal processing can be done by the device at this stage to reduce noise).

So if I were to compare the sound output of the graphics card and the sound card, what I would actually be comparing is the DAC conversion quality of the sound card and that of the Home Theatre, into which I am connecting the HDMI cable (considering the fact that my home theater has both digital and analog inputs and assuming that the analog cable is considered lossless).

If this is true, then I would not need any external sound card since my home theatre can do my audio decoding for me, when I am using my graphics card. Please correct me if I got anything wrong
 
If you are going to be using any form of Analog output, and eventually all outputs become analog, as your ears aren't digital, quality matters. How much is up to the individual.

The best analog outputs are going to be found as far away from the computer as possible, usually on a home stereo amplifier type device.

In the long run, most sounds a computer is going to generate are pre-recorded. There is hardly anything being synthesized or created on the fly by the sound hardware. And in fact, since Windows Vista, the sound processing and mixing has been moved to software, to give greater flexibility in volume control and other added effects.

I think you need to ask yourself a few questions, concerning what you may want from your sound equipment, and that will pretty much determine what device will fill your needs.

As Sid, err I mean, Presler, :) seems to be pointing out, the pre-encoded stuff is pretty much not going to benefit from money spent on an add-in sound device. Really what you're paying for, and I think I mentioned already, but will reiterate just in case, in the case of an add-in board, or even some on-board (integrated on motherboard) solutions is better quality DAC (Digital-to-Analog) circuitry, better quality amps (despite their low power), and more connectivity options.

Essentially, if you plug anything into the analog output of your sound device, add-in boards almost always have the advantage.

Once you plug into the digital coaxial output or TOSLINK (optical) however, you are effectively taking most of the circuitry of an add-in board out of the equation. So, you have to ask yourself, are you going to be using digital or analog to connect to your sound equipment?

If digital, you may be served perfectly fine by the HDMI audio of your graphics device. Works perfectly fine for movies, where the audio track is simply being regurgitated by the computer verbatim and sent to an external amplifier that has it's own speakers, such as you would find in a home theater type setup. When sending the audio this way, no matter how much you pay, the audio is sent over protected channels and you don't even have the ability to change the volume in Windows, much less modify with your sound card.

However, if you play games and expect surround, you may find you have a need for real time encoding into either DDL (Dolby Digital Live [a 5.1 audio format]) or DTS Connect (Digital Theater Sound [an alternative 5.1 audio format to DDL]) so that your game's positional audio is correctly sent to the corresponding speakers. The reason there is a need for the DDL or DTS Connect encoding is that the original TOSLINK and Digital Coaxial audio standards were not designed to transmit more than stereo (2 channel) sound. That's not very groovy these days, so thankfully some smart thinkers devised ways of encoding 5.1 channels into the two stereo channels, and properly equipped amplifiers can easily decode the signal and give you the delicious surround you're after. :)

Unfortunately, there are trade-offs to the encoding, such as fidelity loss and phase change delay, but thankfully for most consumers, they wouldn't know it if they saw (heard) it!

If you're not using analog output, not needing DTS Connect or DDL encoding, you should do perfectly fine with the audio from your graphics card.
 
Solution
Umm, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "external PCIe" sound card. Do you mean, the pass-through feature that used to be facilitated by the two-pin connector on graphics cards?

That two-pin header was there to allow people the benefit of HDMI's audio capabilities before graphics devices had audio built in. It was a work-around that is no longer needed.
 

Steel111

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I understand that the audio will be enough for any movies or videos. But would my graphics card be enough to deliver surround sound while playing games? Can it do the real time encoding into DDL or DTS connect?
 

Steel111

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Well I intend to connect it to my home theatre which is indeed 5.1 ch. From my home theatre I can take a HDMI out to my TV for my video output. So can the graphics card deliver ddl or dtsc while playing games?
 
If you are using multiple analog outputs on a soundcard, DDL or DTS Connect is not used as it's simply not necessary.

DDL and DTS Connect are real-time encoding schemes that were developed to facilitate sending more than two discrete audio channels over digital connections that were only designed to handle two discrete channels. Both DTS Connect and DDL require that the device on the other end be able to recognize and decode the signal. This will almost invariably be a home theater receiver or speaker set with decoding. Also, just because the receiver handles one, does not mean it handles the other. You need to know what your equipment supports.

While the graphics card can pass DDL or DTS encoded streams to your sound equipment perfectly fine from already encoded sources, you are not going to find graphics cards that will actually take the audio from your game and encode it in real-time using DDL or DTS Connect. You have to go with an add-in sound device if you need these features. It isn't as though the graphics devices couldn't be manufactured to perform the task, there just hasn't been a significant demand to cerate a profitable enough market for it yet. This may change in the future.

I'm going to have to disagree with the games having the DDL or DTS Connect. I've never seen a game with that technology built-in. No reason to reinvent the wheel, if you ask me, since game developers can use the standard surround libraries they've known for years with sound devices that do support the encoding schemes. Both technologies require licensing, so I would also expect most publishing companies not wanting to pay an extra licensing fee that only a fraction of consumers are ever going to enjoy. If games were doing this encoding, it would never have been a needed feature for the sound devices to implement.
 

Steel111

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Thank you presler and bigpinkdragon for all your detailed answers. I think I get it now. Perhaps, I won't be needing an extra sound card if the games can deliver some sort of surround using their libraries through the graphics card itself.