Slow OC with i7 3770k, P8Z77-V LK, FSP RAIDER III

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Dobromir Kalchevski

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Hello

I'm trying oc for a first time

This is my hardware:
asus p8z77-v lk (last BIOS update)
i7 3770k
fsp raider iii 750W 80+ silver (>88%)
mushkin enchanced redline 2x8 9-9-9-27 @ 1866 (default)
noctua nh-d14

I followed an Internet guide on how to oc on a similar mb so I did the following:

AI OC Tuner - manual
Turbo Ration - manual
Ratio Sync Control - Enabled
1-, 2- ... Core Ratio - 47
Internal PLLOV - Enabled
Extreme Overvoltage - disabled
CPU Voltage - manual

DIGI+ Power Control
Load-Line Calibration - Extreme
CPU Voltrage Frequency - manual
350
CPU Current Capability
120%

CPU Voltage - 1.35V

F10 (save)

I know I can try to
tune C states (disable them)
lower the LLC
lower the PLL and SA voltages (in order to decrease the temperature)

But the point is the windows (8) loads slowly, I need 10 secs just for the icons' images to appear, there's even mouse lag and prime95 simply hands it every time

instead of increasing the CPU V I simply lowered the mult to 45 (I haven't changed the BCLK) and prime95 run fine, so did wprime (it made my score higher). The aida64 tests got lower, however and there's still the occational mouse lag, the longer wait times when I open a folder or IE and so on ... and even the icons are slow to load ... I can feel the slowness. The programs say 4.5GHz, no throttle shown as clock, the temp was 94 C after 10 min of prime95

The thing became slow ...

What can be the possible reasons ?
Do I need all these settings ?
Does the higher value of LLC really make dangerous voltage spikes ?
Is there a point to try the last couple of things that I had not ?

What tests should I make ...

And last but not least do these Noctua fans actually change their speed, cos it kinda seems to me it stays the same. Do they spin dynamically ? The mb manual says the speed does change with time (at least at the "standard" setting that I use). I read those fans are hard to control cos they are 3 pin connected, not 4. Any software or mb setting for their speed ?

Uh, and also the dynamic speed of my cores is no longer dynamic. I reseted the CMOS after all that and made the previous settings (and I played with the DIGI+) but the freq stays locked @ 3.9GHz per core (the max automatic turbo boost of my cpu), while normally it drops down to 1.54 @ 0% load.
 
Solution
Adroid
There are two schools of thought to overclocking Ivy Bridge. One involves turbo, offset voltage, etc.

I'm old school and I overclock using the old method - I don't play with offset voltage. This method involves finding out the absolute minimum voltage your particular CPU needs to be stable at the clock and temperatures you are happy with.

If you are looking to use the offset voltage to overclock, please look elsewhere. There are probably dozens of decent guides around google.

Now that we have that out of the way, I will share a few of my opinions...

To start, DO NOT ever leave voltages on Auto. From my experience, Ivy Bridge will always try to pull more voltage than it needs, especially during IBT or similar. Intel has basically...
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Dobromir Kalchevski

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I think I stabilized it quite a bit @ 4.3GHz with 1.28V CPU V and @ 69deg C, guess that'll have to do for now
I tweaked many of the settings above and read to understand them better

I guess the constant multiplier is what took care of the win dynamic freq thing
The noctua actually does have a dynamic speed of it's fans and works at full throttle
... touched some of the last settings for stability and offed the LLC for longevity of the CPU
It's still completely stable under prime95

Now the only question remains up to what temp should I push it with stable CPU V and Mult, because I'm sure not every temperature is healthy in the lng run, even if the max is 105deg C. I've read elsewhere in the forum that 80deg C is good ?
 
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Adroid

Adroid

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What temp monitor program are you using? I recommend Core Temp.

Alot of people have different opinions on temperatures. For me 85-90 is the absolute hottest I would be willing to go under stress tests. Preferably 80 under stress, and 60-65 under normal load (gaming etc).

What are your idle temperatures?

The "feeling sluggish" symtoms you describe indicate possible CPU throttle/overheat. You should go under your Windows Event Logger and check for Whea errors. The way to fix them is add voltage, but only if your temperatures allow. You should tinker with voltage and drop clock speeds until the Whea errors go away.

Remember your computer is going to be smoking fast regardless, there is no reason to push it too hard. If you can get 4.3 stable and running smooth you might just stop there. It's my personal opinion adding tons of voltage is not worth it to get stable at an extra 100-200 mhz processor speed. Your system will pretty much smoke any game out there right now at 4ghz+. Why stress it up to get to 4.5ghz?
 
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Dobromir Kalchevski

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I use hwinfo64 (I think it takes the internal sensor temp)

I agree with the 100-200MHz thing, but still I wanted to at least find out how much can I push it. It just doesn't give me a break

@ idle it's ~ 37, that's ok, right ? I really think I did the term paste the right way
it's 69 @ 100% load from prime95

the thing is ... in the mb I set the voltage to something and then CPU-Z and hwinfo64 both say another. so it was never 1.35V, it wasn't even 1.3V

atm it's 1.304 to 1.31x depending on the load and IBT (intelburntest) works for a couple of minutes and crashes ... it's definitely not stable

my major concern is the LLC setting. because I know it can give voltage sparks and these seriously shorten the cpu lifetime. so technically the vcore it @ 1.3 atm, but the LLC is at Very High and that makes it more stable. before it was @ High and it was far less stable. at Very High it gave me 81deg C @ 100% load

I'm just wondering should I play with this LLC or not.
 
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Adroid

Adroid

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I would be less concerned with LLC. LLC should be medium to high/extreme (different mobos have different names). For a moderate overclock high/extreme is fine AS LONG AS you have other voltages set manual.

What may be causing you problems is your PLL OV. That should be either set to manual or left disabled. If your BIOS lets you set it manual, do like .004-.020 - this will effectively bump your voltage when CPU asks for it.

Leaving PLL OV on AUTO is quite possibly sending TOO MUCH voltage to your CPU, and you are potentially damaging your CPU.

I personally DO NOT use intel burn test. Alot of other overclockers will argue this point. I do Prime95 Large FFTs for 12-24 hours and call it good. IBT makes the cores too freaking hot. I have overclocked PCs for over a decade, and I have done fine without IBT. My last build crashed (rebooted) once in 6 years. My current build has crashed 0 times since I built it. Chances are with your PLL OV on IBT is asking for too much voltage and your mobo is giving it to your CPU...

Again - my suggestions are : Download core temp and CPU-z. CPU-z shows voltages actually feeding to your CPU. Core Temp shows your temps. I am unimpressed with Aida and I'm not sure on the other program you are using for temps.

I also disabled turbo and most of the power savings / downclock options. I recommend you do the same if you haven't already, at least until you find a STABLE overclock. Did you go to your event logger in windows and check for WHEA/System errors?

There are a couple other settings at looking at your BIOS I'm not sure about. I'm at work now will have to check more later. To start, disable that PLL OV or put it to manual...
 
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nikoli707

nikoli707

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use intel burn test to initially check your overclock, I've seen 12hour prime fft stable fail in seconds on IBT max setting. also IBT will hit a higher temp and fluctuates voltages.

you should just reset to stock, even your ram, and disable all those power saving features you have and just keep bumping the ratio until it fails to enter windows. at that point then you can run IBT and then a few hours of prime. check your automatically cvid adjusted voltage in the bios and compare that to what hwmonitor shows as the min/max voltage and see how far it is off. if hwmonitor shows a load voltage that isn't in the range it should be, either too low or too high, then you can start checking each LLC level until it gets closer to what the bios automatically set. after that then you can start moving the ratio up one at a time and manually adjusting the voltage one increment at a time until your stable again. you can keep repeating that process until you either hit 80c(at which time you need stronger cooling) or until your past the voltage you would like to be running at long term.
 
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Dobromir Kalchevski

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adroid:

I did reset everything and switched all power savings off. I set the voltages manual (except for the pll cos the bios won't let me but I disabled the pll ov) and then I set the mult to 45 and started with the offset voltage (instead of manual) and the llc. I tried everything from the llc except for the last - "extreme" option and @ some point when the offset is above + 0.04/0.045 (I don't remember) the VCore hits 1.31 - 1.32 and that's above what I want as VCore (I wont it to be max @ 1.3V), yet below that voltage no matter the llc option the system is not stable. the temp was ok, tho - never above 75deg C at prime95

Is it possible that I just don't have a good chip ? after all they are all different ... may be I got a bad one.

well, with this PLL OV thing set on enabled I've been no more than a couple of hours @ 4.3GHz, is it possible that I have done some damage already ? I hope not. everything seems to be OK, the system is stable @ max turbo boost of the CPU of 3.9GHz. plus the 4.3 is stable as well.

nikoli707:

so at first I increase the ratio only, without the vcore ? then a step back, so windows won't crash ? then i'm looking at the automatically set vcore in the bios, then play the llc till hwinfo says the automatic vcore @ load or @ idle ? so when I find it I increase the mult and the vcore manually till temp or vcore satisfies me ? I just hope I got it all correct

but I should still set the sa, vtt and the rest voltages to manual or auto ? cos I'm kinda worried about damage
 
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Adroid

Adroid

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There are two schools of thought to overclocking Ivy Bridge. One involves turbo, offset voltage, etc.

I'm old school and I overclock using the old method - I don't play with offset voltage. This method involves finding out the absolute minimum voltage your particular CPU needs to be stable at the clock and temperatures you are happy with.

If you are looking to use the offset voltage to overclock, please look elsewhere. There are probably dozens of decent guides around google.

Now that we have that out of the way, I will share a few of my opinions...

To start, DO NOT ever leave voltages on Auto. From my experience, Ivy Bridge will always try to pull more voltage than it needs, especially during IBT or similar. Intel has basically programmed the chips to request more voltage than they need to provide a more "stable" CPU to the end user. If you are overclocking, these features actually work against you. The art of maximizing an overclock takes alot of patience to balance the clock, voltages, and temperatures.

Now I am going to be frank with you - I don't think you have the best CPU in existence. But your CPU doesn't seem horrible, either. To me it looks about average.

Your CPU appears to need more voltage to be stable at 4.5GHZ than some 4770K that I have seen. That said, if your temperatures are really maxxing at 75° (and I am still not convinced you are using a good Core Temp type program) , it MIGHT be ok to add more voltage. Typically, temperature is the limiting factor for Ivy overclocks.

If you are going for a 4.5GHZ overclock, I would disable offset voltage and put LLC to Extreme. Extreme should provide the least amount of "dip" in the voltage. Think about it - if you have LLC allowing voltages to raise and lower slightly, AND you have offset voltage raising and lowing voltages, does it not make sense that if both fluctuating voltages might sway too much one way or another?

It's a fact that having too much voltage will damage your CPU in the long term. It's also true that historically Intel CPUs can survive stable and overclocked for years and years... My last one lasted over 6 years overclocked - then I gave it to a friend and he's still using it!

**(I am NOT telling you to do this)** If you want a 4.5-4.8 GHZ overclock, than go for it. Throw caution aside and crank the voltage up to 1.4 + and make it happen. Judging from your temperatures, you probably could relatively safely, with the possibility of burning the chip up faster in the long run.

Or, you could stay with your reasonable 1.3V target, and adjust your clock accordingly. It appears your chip would be happy at around 4.4 GHZ with that voltage.

Keep in mind.. the 3770K @ 4.3GHZs is faster than other 1000$ CPUs at stock clocks, at least for gaming. So if you end up settling for 4.3-4.4 with that chip - thats not a failure, it's a success story. You are not realistically gaining much for another 200 MHZ clock speed.

 
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Adroid

Adroid

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PS - if you settle for 4.3 GHZ now, which is more than enough to run pretty much anything you throw at it with max settings, you can always increase it more later! 5 years from now when you need more CPU horsepower and you are ready to buy a new CPU - crank that thing up if you don't care about burning it up.. Its a shame to burn it up now with little to no benefit!
 
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nikoli707

nikoli707

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yeah i prefer not to use offset voltage like adroid says. i tend to trust hwmonitor on its current/min/max voltage. yes, usually the cvid will automatically adjust a little higher but once you get to a certain ratio the cvid stops helping and manual adjustments are necessary. thats why i say first and foremost find what your highest regular ratio is. and do enable pll overvoltage and disable all the other power saving features. if your happy with the stock cvid ratio you can almost always take .005 to .010 volts out of the auto adjust and still be stable. i cant see whats going on with yours but i suspect that if you turn LLC off what is happening is that under load your voltage is dropping too low or out of the common range that IB chips need for a certain speed. im not too familiar with IB but for sandy bridge usually after 4.5 to 4.6 the chips start to require bigger jumps in voltage to be stable. also... you have a noctua... one of the best air coolers money can buy, so i doubt you have damaged anything and it seems your being very conservative about your overclocking.
 
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nikoli707

nikoli707

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also, 1.3v sounds a little high to me from what i know... thats why im curious what the cvid automatically adjusts it to for you until it fails to enter windows. run a quick IBT at max setting and if it fails, back the ratio down one until you can pass a half hour of IBT at max. then check the voltages. i seriously dont think you need much more than like 1.2v for 4.2-4.3ghz. there is such a thing as having too high of a vcore for a certain speed, at least there is for sandy bridge.

just always keep an eye on those temps.
 
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Dobromir Kalchevski

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I managed to get it stable @ 4.4GHz with no WHEA @ 1.30 - 1.32 Vcore (it's dynamic depending on the load) and 1.3 on the VID. Everything green was off, all voltages manual and all up and down things off. The Vcore was manual, the llc Ultra High. Yes - I'm very positive about my temperatures, they are quite stable, and I was thinking about slow OC to 4.5 or 4.6 with a limit of 1.4Vcore. HWinfo64 is the most through and through program about monitoring, RTSS input and all things like (I even monitor things from games with the smallest font in RTSS), it uses the same sensors as Core Temp, actually I did install Core Temp and the voltages and temperatures were always the same, in fact everything monitored that I looked at was the same.

Guys, thanks a lot ... you've been of a lot of help, I just need 1 more thing that is just rare and hard to find:

As I mentioned my PLL cannot be set manually - the p8z77 gives 2 setting: Auto (1.8 - 1.9) and +0.1 (meaning 1.9). And I know spikes are always there and even if the pll voltage does not concern the speed it does change (does it ?) with the load and if I remove the LLC completely (Extreme) it's spikes will go above and below the Intel Recommended Max and Min and with time the CPU will be degrading faster, even with stable temp, stable operation, V below the IRM (1.52V) and so on. ... I'm with the last BIOS update and I think my MB simply cannot allow me to set PLL manually (I think 1.7 to 1.675 or sometimes even below) is quite stable and the spikes (which depend on both Voltage jump and initial Voltage value before the jump) will simply keep going too high or too low.

I don't remember clearly have I read this somewhere but I think this is the case (info is hard to find) ... what do you think ? Can if everything is within limits these spikes thanx to the LLC set to Extreme or Ultra High damage things with time
 
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