Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question
Solved

Noob questions about CPU/GPU

Last response: in CPUs
Share
January 6, 2014 6:09:55 AM

I understand the technical difference between discrete and integrated GPUs, but what does it mean? From what I've read, discrete seems better for gamers, but I don't understand why. Can someone explain or link me to an explanation?

Also, in Tom's latest CPU guide (dec 2013), when discussing the Intel Core i5-4670K, Woligroski says "the pricier chip's HD Graphics 4600 engine is inconsequential to us".

Then when discussing the i5-3550P he says "The P suffix is an indication that Intel disables its HD Graphics engine, but we're perfectly alright with such a decision."

Can someone help me understand the role of the HD graphics engine and why it's not useful?

More about : noob questions cpu gpu

a c 97 à CPUs
January 6, 2014 7:15:53 AM

because Intel HD graphics is ok for everyday work, but bad for gaming.
m
0
l
a c 116 à CPUs
January 6, 2014 7:33:20 AM

Discrete means a dedicated graphics processor, so your typical graphics card. Integrated means that its a part of something else, it used to be on motherboards but now its most often found inside the CPU (or APU on AMD's side).

The reason dedicated graphics is better for gamers and enthusiasts is that quite simply they are just more powerful. The reason we don't really care about integrated graphics is because we simply don't use it, anyone buying an unlocked Core i5 is going to have a graphics card making it pointless, we would rather they stripped it out of the chip so the CPU would run cooler or draw less power.

If your building a Home Theater or family PC, then the integrated graphics becomes useful because in those usages, graphics performance doesnt matter so any GPU will do the job just fine.
m
0
l
Related resources
January 6, 2014 8:31:33 AM

rgd1101 said:
because Intel HD graphics is ok for everyday work, but bad for gaming.


Do AMD cpus typically have some kind of HD graphics engine on their chips as well?
m
0
l
January 6, 2014 8:39:09 AM

manofchalk said:
Discrete means a dedicated graphics processor, so your typical graphics card. Integrated means that its a part of something else, it used to be on motherboards but now its most often found inside the CPU (or APU on AMD's side).

The reason dedicated graphics is better for gamers and enthusiasts is that quite simply they are just more powerful. The reason we don't really care about integrated graphics is because we simply don't use it, anyone buying an unlocked Core i5 is going to have a graphics card making it pointless, we would rather they stripped it out of the chip so the CPU would run cooler or draw less power.

If your building a Home Theater or family PC, then the integrated graphics becomes useful because in those usages, graphics performance doesnt matter so any GPU will do the job just fine.


So "HD graphics engine" really just a GPU integrated with the CPU as part of the CPU package? If I have a separate graphic card, but don't overclock, you're saying it's still prudent to get a CPU with the integrated GPU/HD graphics engine disabled. Can the integrated GPU be turned off with sofware? (i.e. mobo bios) or is this just something I should be aware of when buying a CPU for a PC intended for gaming?
m
0
l
a c 116 à CPUs
January 6, 2014 8:41:54 AM

Muckster said:
Do AMD cpus typically have some kind of HD graphics engine on their chips as well?


AMD defines a CPU with an integrated GPU as an APU. Their FX line doesnt have any integrated graphics, being purely CPU. Their APU's have integrated graphics.
As a general rule mainstream Intel chips have integrated graphics, the only ones that dont are the LGA2011 chips, mainstream socket Xeon's and specific SKU's like the 3550P where the naming scheme explicitly says it doesn't.

Muckster said:
So "HD graphics engine" really just a GPU integrated with the CPU as part of the CPU package? If I have a separate graphic card, but don't overclock, you're saying it's still prudent to get a CPU with the integrated GPU/HD graphics engine disabled. Can the integrated GPU be turned off with sofware? (i.e. mobo bios) or is this just something I should be aware of when buying a CPU for a PC intended for gaming?


Yup.
Getting a chip without integrated graphics wont have any benefit over the equivalent chip with integrated graphics, more than likely the iGPU is still in there but just defective, so they disabled it and sold it off as a SKU that doesnt include the iGPU.
You can turn off the integrated through the BIOS I think, not too sure. If your using a dedicated card then it shouldn't be active unless your leveraging it for something like QuickSync.
Theirs nothing wrong with getting a CPU with integrated graphics, just if your going to be getting a dedicated card then its largely going to waste.
m
0
l
a c 97 à CPUs
January 6, 2014 8:42:08 AM

The motherboard would know if you have a discrete gpu and would turn off the integrated HD graphic.

Almost all intel consumer level cpu include integrated HD graphic.

Just buy what you can afford.
m
0
l
a c 754 à CPUs
January 6, 2014 8:48:30 AM

Most of the Xeon E3's also lack igp. Gotta love those poor man i7's though. :D  1230 v* and higher are all i7 without igp unless there is a 5 at the end. For example, the 1240 v2 doesn't have IGP but the 1245 v2 does.
m
0
l
January 6, 2014 10:05:37 AM

Really appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge.

Okay, as long as the iGPU is disabled by the manufacturer or by the bios, then it's not really a detriment. For cooling I assume it would be better if the CPU simply didn't have an iGPU, but it sounds like this isn't so much an issue. Still, why should I pay for something I won't use or need.

I think I got a handle on the concepts I raised. I considering a new gaming build around the i5-4670k, but I don't plan to ever overclock or upgrade. (I usually buy a new pc every 5 years, then pass the old one down to someone else). Toms guide suggest that I'm wasting my money on an i5-4670K if I'm not going to overclock. What's a good AMD equivalent to the i5-4670k in terms of performance and price?
m
0
l
a c 754 à CPUs
January 7, 2014 11:01:01 AM

If you do not plan to ever overclock or upgrade, don't buy a 4670k. For $15 more you can get a 1230 v3 Xeon that will outlast the i5 as games and apps become more multithreaded since it is an i7 without IGP.
m
0
l
January 7, 2014 1:01:27 PM

logainfhades,

Yes, I like the way you're thinking! I'd be open to paying a little more and getting a CPU I can fully use without the intention of overclocking and without paying for an unused iGPU. However, I don't know much about the Xeon 1230 V3 chips. It's not listed in Tom's lasted gaming CPU guide, not even the hierarchy list. Am I going to have trouble getting it to marry up with the mobo or other hardware? Was this chip made for use with personal computers? I assume that because it's Intel it must be stable. I guess I need to do a little more research on it, but this really does sound like a good solution for my needs. Any chance you can give me a quick recommendation for a mobo/graphics card/memory that would best go with it in the best bang-4-buck kind of way? I tend to build a new PC every 5 or so years but I don't overclock and I don't leave room to upgrade hardware. If I find what I think is a good build but it's too expensive, I'm not opposed to waiting a few months and buying it later.

Thanks for your advice.
m
0
l
a c 754 à CPUs
January 7, 2014 1:12:51 PM

E3's are just i7's without igp with the exception of the ones with a 5 instead of a 0 at the end. They will work in normal H87/Z87 motherboards. I used to run a Xeon X3210 in an Abit P35 pro back in the core 2 days. :lol:  Recommendations really depend really on your budget, though.
m
0
l
January 7, 2014 1:37:19 PM

logainofhades,

Well, I'm still trying to familiarize myself with the latest tech, but after getting some help for the good people on this forum, I was loosely thinking about pairing a i5-4670K with a GTX 770 before I considered that I don't want to overclock. You know how it is... there's no point getting a GPU so much stronger than your CPU that it's a waste of the GPU and vice versa. What best-bang-for-buck graphics card would you pair with the Xeon E-1230 v3 in order to get the most out of the combo? If a Xeon 1230 paired with a GTX 770 doesn't get me much more than a GTX 770 paired with maybe a Core i5-3350P, then I might just to that. If, on the other hand, a beefier graphics card would really make a difference when paired with the 1230, then I might be willing to spend more on the graphics card as well, or at least put of my purchase for few months until the combination is more affordable. My original goal was to create a build that meets or surpasses a PS4/Xbox1 and I don't think a Core i5-3350P would be quite enough.

Can you be more specific about which i7 you would compare to the Xeon 1230 V3? Over at cpubenchmark I found a comparison showing the xeon beating a i7-3770 @ 3.4, which doesn't make sense because the 3770 looks like it has superior stats.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+E3-1...

Thanks for your time and advice.
m
0
l
a c 754 à CPUs
January 7, 2014 2:35:00 PM

The v3 is closest to an i7 4770. In real world situations, the 100mhz difference means pretty much 0. You might get 1-2 fps more at best. Using the same GPU, games that make use of more cores, say BF4 64 man campaign or Crysis 3, the 1230v3 will be superior to the i5 3350p. THG actually recommends an i7 for Crysis 3. In apps using 4 cores or less, it will still be about 5-10% faster because the 1230v3 is haswell and the 3350p is ivy. The GTX 770 is a pretty decent card. If you can afford it, an R9 290 is a nice card for the $$$ too as it can trade blows with a 780 and Titan. I was thinking something like this.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1230 V3 3.3GHz Quad-Core Processor ($244.48 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($88.99 @ Mwave)
Memory: Team Vulcan 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: Gigabyte Radeon R9 290 4GB Video Card ($457.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Total: $911.44
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-01-07 17:34 EST-0500)
m
0
l
January 7, 2014 3:53:22 PM

logainofhades,

Thanks, that's just what I'm looking for. Looks like the 1230 is a bigger jump above the 4670K than I anticipated which explains why you made a similar jump from the GTX770 to the R9 290 (skipping right over the 280). $330 to $457 for the vid card is a pretty huge jump as I was already a little uncomfortable with the $330, but this is exactly the kind of information I wanted, so thanks very much!

Regarding you comments on the cores, I noticed you compared the 1230 ($245) to the i5-3350 ($180), but using the same parameters you mention, how would it compare to the i5-4670K ($230)? Is the i5-4670k superior to the 1230 in terms of cores or by any other comparison (other than the 100mhz)?

Well, it seems like the system I want isn't viable at this time. I want something as good or better than the 4670K based build, but don't want to waste money ON the 4670k because I don't need the iGPU and I don't overclock. At the same time, stepping back to the i5-3350 won't fit my requirements to meet/beat the new consoles. And finally, the 1230/R9 290 isn't just out of budget, but it simply doesn't seem like a good value when thinking in terms of bang for buck. I think what I need to do is put off buying a PC for 2-3 months then check and see what the 1230/R9 290 combo will cost. Speaking of which, do you think that whole bitcoin thing is still affecting the price of the R9 290 and if so, might we be seeing a price drop on that sooner than later? I know I'm asking you to speculate...

Finally, I also see you're recommending 16 GB of system mem which is double what I thought I'd need with the 4670k/GTX770 I was contemplating. The extra cost doesn't scare me too much, but are you sure that isn't overkill?

Thanks man, I really appreciate your time. It's hard when you're starting a new build to know the difference between stupid and good question. If I do end up putting this off for a few months, you really saved me a lot of time and effort researching everything sooner than I needed to only to have to research it all again later. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking at more CPU benchmarks and familiarizing myself with the concepts around the cores, bus speeds, etc. BTW, I did catch your other thread on the 1230 which was also informative.

Thanks again. I'll be keeping your Parts Picker link as a great reference for me. Sorry for all the questions. This is what you get for being a guy who knows what he's talking about.
m
0
l

Best solution

a c 754 à CPUs
January 8, 2014 7:07:31 AM

The only thing that makes the 4670k truly superior is its overclocking ability. Since you are not going to be overclocking, there is no point in getting one. I only chose 16gb based on how long you intend to keep said system without intention to upgrade. Bitcoin miners are still affecting GPU costs.
Share
January 8, 2014 9:50:16 AM

I think you helped me find the build I want, but I'll wait a couple months and see if it's a better value before I pull the trigger.

Have a good one and thanks very much for all your help.
m
0
l
!