Intel 2011 Now or Wait for the Next Gen?

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MykeyMyke

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Hello, I'm new here on Tom's and I have to say this is the best Forum around, I'm so impressed with the quality all around.

I am putting together a video/editing, graphic design build at the moment, but I also want to be able to play some games, so my choice has favored the 2011 CPU and Motherboards. I won't get too much into hardware specifics since it may all be irrelevant anyways. I don't do any 3-d rendering right now but it would be nice to have the ability, since I have a Graphics/Sign business. I work with Photoshop, Corel X-6 mainly and some Signware. I also have an HD video cam that I render a lot in Vegas and Premiere. I'm also an artist and do my own artwork, I have a Wacom HD 24" Pressure sensitive Tablet where I do my creations.

My question is (in regards with my build), should I consider a platform for a Hi-end build on the Intel 2011CPU and boards or wait for the release later in this year for the new Intel Haswell-E? I've heard speculation that the 2011 platform will not be advancing any further than it is presently, which means it may have reached it's plateau for potential?

Personally I would rather not spend that kind of money on hardware if this is the case, where as it may make more sense to just build with the Haswell Ivy Bridge i7 4770K which will do the same job I want anyway at marginally less cost than the 2011 we have at the moment.

To give an idea of the performance I'm after, I'm looking at Rampage Black MB and i7 4930k and a Gigabyte 780ti Ghz series graphics card for the main core. All totalled it could reach $5000.00 quite easily with hi end hardware I like and I never like to go cheap unless performance is justified not compromised!

If I could find just as good performance except for the ram advantage/bandwidth of the 2011 boards I think I would sway towards Haswell 4770K overclock especially if Haswell is progressing into the future and maybe DDR4 ram may be entering the equation also. 32 Gb of decent ram isn't cheap!

If anyone has a build that would compete with the Rampage Black and the 4930K on the Haswell i7 4770K platform please let me know and any advice on the new up coming release this year that may adversely affect any money spending decisions right now.(Patience may be the key).

thanks!

Mike
 
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Specops125

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Haswell-E will have DDR4, but I'm not sure that's worth waiting for if you need the system now given how minimal variation there is in RAM performance.

If you are doing CPU intensive work where numerous cores could be utilized there is no question the 4930K is superior. If not, you are right the 4770K would work just as well. You could also save money with the motherboard. More expensive motherboards tend to just give you more of the same (e.g. more PCIe 3.0 slots, more SATA ports, more USB 3.0 ports, etc.) - at the end of the day an X79 or Z87 chipset will still be X79 or Z87. So if you don't have a need for that much connectivity, you are getting poor returns from a performance standpoint by going with something like a Rampage Black.

If you are spending $5000 I can only guess it is because of going SLI. If you are going 3 or 4 way SLI, you absolutely should go for LGA 2011 or wait for Haswell-E - LGA 2011 gets you 40 PCIe lanes for bandwidth compared to 16 on LGA 1150.

I could (and others) could suggest a build, is $5000 your budget? Are you in fact looking to do a major SLI?
 
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vmN

vmN

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Ram frequency can have a huge influence in certain applications, such as rendering.(I think you meant the difference between single and dual channel, as there are little to no performance increase in that).

For the GPU, it's all about what software you use.

 
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MykeyMyke

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Thanks for your input guys,

I have an opportunity to buy a brand new unopened Intel i7-3930k - Socket LGA 2011, C2 Revision, Sandybridge-E CPU off Craigslist for $375.00. the guy seems legit, It's unopened in original manufacturer Intel box. I read a bit on the Revision C and it was to fix some bugs the cpu was having. Anyway the 3930 Sandy B would be just as good for overclocking and speed.

I kind of akin this to building a hi performance car in my younger years, throwing the hi rise intake and 4 barrel Holly and headders on it just for some extra
go! Gotta love this labor of love so I look at this first build like this!

I say 5000.00 because that's what NXIX quoted me for a build. Most I would go is 2, possibly 3 graphics cards at the most. I have some positive info that you can run a 4000k Quardo and a Geforce card on the same board. nobody's going to recommend it but people are doing it successfully. Until I know more it will be a single 780Ti for now and if I think I need more gpu power which I don't, I can add another 780Ti in SLI later.

Here's my rig I had in mind for WS and Gaming purposes: (75% Graphic Arts and video / 25% Gaming(Rounded off to the nearest $)

Mother Board: originally it was the Asus P9X79-E WS or the Rampage Black...............$519.00
CPU: i7 4930K.....................................................................................................$600.00
Hard Drives: 1 Samsung Pro 128GB SSD, for OS and for boot drive............................$140.00
1 Samsung Pro 256GB SSD for programs and main work platform .............................$229.00
1 4TB WD Calvier 7900 rpm for storage................................................................. $299.00
Thermaltake Chaser MK-1 Case............................................................................. $159.00
Coolermaster H100i CPU Cooler..............................................................................$120.00
G. Skill Ripjaws Z 64gb 2400 (Newegg)...................................................................$835.99
Corsair AXi Series 860w (Newegg)...........................................................................$229.00
Gigabyte GeForce 870Ti (Gigabyte Version) (Newegg)................................................$779.00

Total $3904.00

If I get the i7 3930K for $350.00 reduce by $250.00...............................New Total = $3659.00

Boot disc will be regular configuration not Raid 0 to make use of trimming feature and HD maintenance since Raid 0 this is unavailable.

I have a QNAP 2 bay Nas with 2 Red 2TB Hard drives for backup I will run in Raid 1

I have keyboard and monitor, but will need an OS, Windows 7 Ultimate or Windows 8, ultimately I'd like both and have separate boot drive ssd's

Let me know what you guys think and where I can trim some dollars from

Mike
 
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Specops125

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That's fair, especially if you consider DDR4 has the potential for 3000+ speeds. But, based on differences within DDR3, even for this type of work, I think it would be noticeable but perhaps not huge.
 
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Specops125

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Looks good to me, if you combined the amount your spending on the SSD's, you're about $50 short of the 512GB version vs the 384GB you have between those two, dunno if the price bump is worth it to you. Also, 4 TB HDDs can be less reliable than 1 or 2 TB versions, maybe consider 2 x 2 TB drives, in RAID 0 even if you wanted better performance (but this takes you back to square one, and maybe even worse with the reliability aspect).

Also the 3930K should actually be better for overclocking than the 4930K, so this would at least some of the gain you'd see by going with the newer chip. Intel changed the thermal compound used internally between the actual chip and the CPU lid starting with Ivy Bridge, and people have widely stated that this has made high overclocks more difficult.
 
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MykeyMyke

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Evaluation keeps on keeping on-

The 3930K was hopeful, yet sometimes sellers are unsure if they really want to sell, so it was in this case. Amounts to wasting a bunch of time, but that's the way of buying used items of any kind. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and you win some and you lose some. All in all it's probably better to pay retail price and have a warranty, because at least it's an insurance policy vs something electronic and so called new and unopened.

I was pricing SSD's today and you make a good point on savings with the 512GB Version, I did notice that as well. My plan for the SSD's was to have a 128GB strictly for OS and boot and the other for all my drawing applications and working platform/desktop but not have anything stored on the ssd's per-say. I forgot to mention I have another Intel 520 SSD 240Gb in my other PC so I can even use 3 SSD's. One for OS and the other 2 for apps in Raid 0 for speed.

I think you're right with going with 2X2GB Sata HD's, ultimately I 'd like to have a Raid 10 set up.
If you anyone could advise me what would be the best efficient way to do this and even if I could use my 2 WD Red 2TB HD's in my Nas as part of the Raid 10 that would be ideal, I would only need 2 more 2TB Black WD Calvier's...? I can always use my Acronis backup for disc imaging as well, although I don't know how it works in Raid 0 set up's.

Another option I have is Deal Number 2 : It's an Intel i7 2600K( SandyBridge) CPU on a Maximus ROG IV-Gene(Gen3) Motherboard I can pick up for $500.00 with Corsair 600T Case, 8GB of Skill RipJaws 1600 MHz and it comes with a Ocz 750 watt PSU and Windows 7. This may be a good computer to play with and learn on how to OC really, a far cry from $5000.00 LOL! (or 10% of if you do the math!)

Gen 2 Maximus IV-Gene Boards seem to be pretty good quality from the reviews I've read. Anyway this deal might be ok for rendering for the amount I do for now, I could just have some fun with a few additions.

Let me know what you guys think on the i72600K and ROG Maximus-Gene board, I can still make a deal, but if it's a waste of money maybe better put into something current or the Haswell-e later, in the meantime I'll have more spending money!

Mike






 
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MykeyMyke

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I decided to go for a used PC and plan a main build based on what I learn from this entry level gamer, which is where I should be;

Here's what I purchased on the weekend-(price paid was $500.00)
PC is about 2 years old and the reason for selling was the guy couldn't remember the last time he played a game on it.


Intel Core i7-2600 Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz Processor
ASUS Maximus IV Gene-Z/GEN3 Motherboard
G.SKILL Ripjaws X 2x4GB DDR3-1600 Ram
Corsair Graphite Series 600T Special Edition White Case
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 460 SE 1GB Graphics Card (bought a GTX Gigabyte 780Ti to put in instead of this GC)
OCZ Agility 3 60GB 2.5" SSD
Western Digital 640GB Hard Drive
OCT ZT Series 750W Fully-Modular Power Supply
Razer Lycosa Keyboard
Razer Lachesis Wired Mouse
Windows 7 Home Version, Clean format, new Asus Drivers reinstalled, boots and works(Performance Rating 7.9)

This is a temporary PC I will put some money into and more likely sell later. But I have the option of using this strictly for W/Rendering Graphics use.

I've bought so far:

1 Nividia Geforce Gigabyte 780Ti OC version
Corsair H100i CPU cooler
1 Samsung 840 Pro Series 128GB 2.5in SATA3 MDX Solid State Disk Flash Drive SSD for the OS
1 Samsung 840 Pro Series 256GB 2.5in SATA3 MDX Solid State Disk Flash Drive SSD for Applications, and programs for desktop function.
2X Western Digital WD2003FZEX Black 2TB SATA 6GB-S 7200RPM 64MB Cache 3.5in Hard Drives for storage (Will be Raid 10 eventually)
5 Nochtua NFF12 120mm fans

Repairs Required:
1) The large 200mm fan in the front is not working properly, it finally spools up after a while but barely makes any air movement
2) The variable fan controller doesn't seem to be working as well in the Corsair 600T. (This seems to be a common issue). Perhaps bypassing this is the answer and running direct off the MB and using the Corsair software to control fan speed?

Mods: I'll see if it's possible to mod the large front fan with 2 of the Nochtua 120mm fans to start. Remove the HD cages in the backside and use the top 5" bays and 1 lower cage for storage. I can use the one 2 bay cage moved back on the floor to have clear air movement. There's enough room just have to cut the opening at the bottom a little bigger to mount the Nochtua's.

Advice on Ram : I would also like to add more of the same Ram maybe 2X4 more GB making it 4X4GB G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR3-1600 Ram, total of 16GB. If it's possible tho (but probably not advisable) to add 2 sticks of 8GB and run the 2X4 GB original sticks as well, making 24GB total as long as it's exactly the same matched type and speed 1600 Mhz?
 
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feelingtheblanks

feelingtheblanks

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You should be fine if you get a same brand- same model- same frequency- same timing stick. But it's not always guaranteed to run perfectly and don't expect a stable memory overclock.

On the other hand I've been using a Core2Duo system with 4 sticks of ram which are basically two different model and timings but I even managed to achieve a good overclock stability for very long years without a single BSOD. So at the end of the day it's a bit of luck.

But I keep hearing more memory compatibility issues nowadays. So I guess technology going backwards here.
 
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vmN

vmN

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I don't get why people overclock their ram, it's rather pointless.
You get a higher frequency(good), but also a higher latency(bad). So it is minimal how much performance increase you will get.

 
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MykeyMyke

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I reviewed a good article here on Tom's about Ram and the usage between 4GB, 8GB, 16GB, 24GB in gaming applications and it didn't make too much difference in the frame rate, the 4GB could almost keep up, they did recommend 8GB min. But when it came to rendering that was a whole different thing. I guess it boils down to need, if it doesn't do anything why buy it? Benchmarks tell a real story but I think you have to look deeper too and apply any real evidence to your application. For me Ram is needed, but hardly 32 GB, I think 16 or maybe 24 would suffice for my heavy Photoshop renderings.

It's good to take plenty of time in the planning stage and weigh all the information. Maybe buying 2 sticks of dual channel and buying more if you need it later.

I could try 2 sticks of the same brand and speed Skill, try the 2 sticks of 4 and see what happens, I'm not going to OC, if I do it's just to experiment and see what the real scoop is, just to know.
 
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vmN

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For rendering it's not only the amount of data you can store, it's also how much you can transfer(frequency).
When a CPU is pulling data from RAM, it's reducing it's clockspeed to rams speed(ofc this happends in a splitsecond)
As rendering, it will pull data from RAM to CPU for rendering constantly, so higher frequency is better.
2x8GB 2133MHz with a CAS latency on 9 and you will be set for basically everything.
 
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MykeyMyke

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For rendering it's not only the amount of data you can store, it's also how much you can transfer(frequency).
When a CPU is pulling data from RAM, it's reducing it's clockspeed to rams speed(ofc this happends in a splitsecond)
As rendering, it will pull data from RAM to CPU for rendering constantly, so higher frequency is better.
2x8GB 2133MHz with a CAS latency on 9 and you will be set for basically everything.[/quotemsg]

What would you recommend for Ram in rendering applications doing what I do, if I go ahead with my primary build.
CPU: i7 4930K
Motherboard: ASUS Rampage IV Black
Graphics Card: Gigabyte GTX 780Ti OC version.

I'm thinking G. Skill Ripjaws 32gb Z's which are meant for 2011.
G.SKILL Ripjaws Z Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2133 (PC3 17000) Desktop Memory Model F3-17000CL11Q2-64GBZLD

I've read here they are specific to Rampage IV and a favorable choice for stability as well.
I get the impression good as they are the Corsair Platinum would be a second choice to the G-Skill Ripjaws maybe there is a good reason?
What would be your suggestion for speed? 2133 MHz or would it be better to even go higher with the 2400MHz? and is there any point at all if Ram will only run at a set point anyway? (hence the push for OC)

Speed wise I agree with what you said about overclocking memory, that's something I can investigate more later, but for now I think it makes most sense to have a large and robust platform to draw from,not sacrificing any potential, based on this position - Do it once + Build it right from the beginning = No regrets


I could very well go with a cheaper motherboard I guess as well, but for the sake of a couple hundred bucks It's good to have the best, resale value will be a plus factor, and when it comes right down to it I haven't read one bad review about the Rampage Black, yet in an imperfect world there's bound to be a lemon or two out there!

 
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vmN

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I would recommend getting 4x4GB 2133MHz with a CAS latency on 9.
That would be a perfect spot.
Also all ram are almost as stable as others, with RAM you can sort of "cheap out".
this will have the exact some performance as the one you suggested.
You could get this MOBO, there wont be any visible performance degrees by any means.
 
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MykeyMyke

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I have my primary build taking up my time at present what you suggested 4X4GB 2133MHz CAS 9 would be ideal with that system I agree. I've opted instead to just keep that PC as is and invest in a 2011socket CPU build, significantly more money $$

My question on Ram for the 4930K CPU, Rampage Black comb is: I had 32BG of G-Skill Ripjaws Z 2400 CAS 10 all set to order(compatible with Rampage Black) but they are on back order, if I pick another G-Skill choice what would be the best for my CPU and MB and for rendering function, t"o get that sweet spot" in efficiency, speed, and also good for gaming or whatever I throw at it?

 
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