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Windows 7 ultimate 64-bit + ASUS Sabertooth Z87 motherboard - strange issues.

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February 6, 2014 10:21:34 AM

Greetings all.

This is my first post in these forums, I hope you may be able to assist me.

I finished a new build last night featuring a Sabertooth Z87 motherboard, which is running Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit.

Here are the full specs of my system:

ASUS Sabertooth Z87 motherboard (running Bios version 1707)
16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3-1600 (CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9B)
Seidon 120M liquid cooling
Intel Core i5-4670K 3.4GHz Quad-Core
2x Kingston Hyper-X 3K 120gb SSD (In RAID 0)
2x Western Digital 1TB HDD - due to be replaced soon
Onboard sound
GeForce 9600GT video card
Zalman Z9 mid tower cas12:50 PM 2/6/2014e
Silverstone 750w power supply
LG DVD-CDRW optical drive (SATA) -- model that is several years old.

I had some difficulty getting into the BIOS after my initial boot when I setup the RAID 0 on the Hyper-X SSDs, but after an update to BIOS version 1707 this seemed to have gone away.

My next challenge was getting Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit to install. I had to try MULTIPLE time before the DVD actually booted up into the Windows setup from the device. I'm thinking that MAYBE this DVD drive is too old?

In any case, after maybe 30-40 minutes the OS was installed and I was up and running. At this point I was looking to update Windows and test out the system and begin to configure it for use and install my software, but I found the LAN was not being recognized. I'm guessing some drivers need to be installed from the DVD that came with the motherboard?

Finally the main issue cropped up - and I simply can't figure out why.

If I restart the system from Windows 7 *or* press the reset button on the system it reboots very quickly, but hangs at the ASUS TUF Logo with a message to press F2 or DEL to enter the bios setting....and nothing works. This happens every single time if I restart from within the OS or press the reset button. If I shut down the system and do a cold boot it works just fine and loads the OS in about 25-30 seconds from the moment I power on the system.

This same behaviour has occured fairly regularly when I have a disc in the DVD drive.

Is it possible that my older DVD drive is causing these issues and should be replaced?

Please advise...this is driving me crazy and kept me up have the night.

PS - I wanted to mention that the the Seidon 120M liquid cooling the CPU is running at approximately 27-29 degrees celsius all of the time. Does this sound about right?

Thank you,
-Rob
February 6, 2014 11:40:38 AM

COLGeek said:
Did you install the ACPI drivers (ASUS_AMDA00_ACPI for Windows 7 32/64bit & Windows 8 32/64bit & Windows 8.1 32/64bit.? First entry under utilities:

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/SABERTOOTH_Z87/#suppo...


Thanks for the reply.

I have not installed anything else at this point. It was the first thing on my list for when I got home after work tonight.

When you said, "first entry under utilities" - where did you mean? I followed that link you provided and it just brought me to the ASUS Sabertooth Z87 support page.

I'm sorry if I ask some questions that may seem basic, but it has been about 6-7 years since I built my last machine from the ground up.

Thanks,
-Rob
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Related resources
a c 212 V Motherboard
February 6, 2014 12:30:48 PM

Click on the Drivers and Tool icon, then select your OS. This will present you with a list of available downloads. Utilities is one of the sections.
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February 6, 2014 1:44:10 PM

COLGeek said:
Click on the Drivers and Tool icon, then select your OS. This will present you with a list of available downloads. Utilities is one of the sections.


Ok, thanks. Safe to say that could be the cause of my grief? Will that resolve the freezing at the logo?

I'm also thinking I could have one or more of my devices in the wrong type of SATA port - I'll have to double check when I get home. I think I need to put the 2x SSDs, 2x HDDs, and the 1x Optical DVD drive into the BROWN SATA ports. No real need for me to use the BEIGE ports since I will want to RAID my drives, and the optical needs to be bootable - which is not supported on the BEIGE ports.

Correct? What do you think about the CPU temps I'm getting? Decent?
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 6, 2014 4:00:42 PM

ACPI is the Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and...)

It helps the system in managing its power features and devices, including the startup and shutdown (restart) functions. It will certainly help.

CPU temp is good.
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February 7, 2014 7:38:32 AM

COLGeek said:
ACPI is the Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and...)

It helps the system in managing its power features and devices, including the startup and shutdown (restart) functions. It will certainly help.

CPU temp is good.


COLGeek - I appreciate the help, but unfortunately I'm unable to find that. I loaded up the support dvd that came with the motherboard, and there is no entry for ACPI drivers on any option on the tool loaded from the DVD.

However, I did find the latest ACPI drivers on the ASUS website which I downloaded and installed.

Still no change in behavior.

It still hangs at the ASUS TUF logo screen EVERY single time I reboot the computer, press the reset button or it automatically reboots after a Windows hotfix.

This is getting really annoying, especially since there are a lot of Windows updates that need to be applied.

Additionally, ASUS support is practically non-existant and completely useless. I spent an hour or so chatting with a "Tech" last night who advised me to move my SATA device from the BEIGE ports to the BROWN ones.

All I had attached to the 2 beige ports were my two Western Digital HDDs that contained the old data from my previous build. Since the most important files had been backed up to the cloud and an external 300gb USB drive I did it.....good thing too, since the BROWN ports are all set up for RAID and once I powered up the second drive is now non-functional. It doesn't show up in Windows at all - and I can't access the volume information from Device Manager....I can't be sure until I check a few things later tonight after work, but I think it was either somehow put into a RAID with the other WD HDD - even though I didn't create an array - or it simply died in some way.

The physical device shows up in device manager, but beyond that I can't do a thing with it.

Suffice it to say, I'm NOT happy right now. I don't care too much about the data on that old drive since I had backed up the important stuff, but there was other historical stuff there that I would have liked to keep.

The really big issue is the freezing on reboot, reset, restart. That simply HAS to be resolved. I'm completely stumped as to the cause. When the system is up and running it runs very fast. I have not benchmarked it yet or done any other testing on the components.

What could be causing the freezes? I ran an SFG /verifyonly on the Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit OS I installed and it reported back that everything was good.

Could the freezes be caused by the memory in some way? CPU? The motherboard itself, or some other component? Or perhaps a driver? Maybe once the Windows updates are complete it will magically disappear?

I could use some guidance here since ASUS support appears to be totally useless.

Thanks,
-Rob
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 7, 2014 7:49:39 AM

The brown ports are Intel ports (native SATA). The beige are Asmedia ports (non-native and require their own drivers). I would not use the beige ports for anything. I would only use the brown (Intel ports).

I think you need to simplify your build to ensure the CPU/memory/motherboard are working properly. Try this.

With only a single SSD (and optical drive) connected, install your OS. No HDDs or other SSDs should be attached. Just a single SSD.

After Windows installs and boot to the OS. Shutdown and connect a single HDD. Start the system and let it detect the HDD and install the necessary drivers.

At this point, do you have a stable system?
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February 7, 2014 8:04:16 AM

COLGeek said:
The brown ports are Intel ports (native SATA). The beige are Asmedia ports (non-native and require their own drivers). I would not use the beige ports for anything. I would only use the brown (Intel ports).

I think you need to simplify your build to ensure the CPU/memory/motherboard are working properly. Try this.

With only a single SSD (and optical drive) connected, install your OS. No HDDs or other SSDs should be attached. Just a single SSD.

After Windows installs and boot to the OS. Shutdown and connect a single HDD. Start the system and let it detect the HDD and install the necessary drivers.

At this point, do you have a stable system?



Thanks for the advice. I was going to try and simplify the build later tonight to see if I can isolate the freezing issue.

Regarding your suggestions I had a question:

1) Having the SATA ports set to RAID in the bios does not require me to utilize RAID on them at all - correct?

I'll go through the exercise again since I had not done it with a single SSD, but my initial build was the 2 SSDs in a RAID 0 - no HDDs attached - and it still exhibited the freezing behavior on reboots, etc.

I even had one freeze at the BIOS.

I'll run through the testing to try and nail it down, including even dropping back on the memory - I currently have 4 x 4gb Corsair Vengeance installed - to see it if is playing a part in the issue.

At this point I'm leaning toward this being an issue with the motherboard itself or the CPU, but I could be wrong.

Any other advice you can give?

Thanks again,
-Rob
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 7, 2014 8:16:07 AM

You could also have a memory issue going on here as well. You can download memtest , burn to disk, them boot to said disk to check out your memory as well. Get it here:

http://www.memtest.org/#downiso
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February 7, 2014 8:45:37 AM

Thanks COLGeek - that was something I was planning on doing as well.

Do I need to test the memory sticks one at a time, or will Memtest be smart enough to do that?

I was just thinking about the CPU as well, any reliable way to test that out?

Should I remove the CPU and reseat it and the water cooling block as well? I'm reluctant to do that since I don't like tempting the fates and risk having an issue with the chip - and I'm getting 25-29 degree Celsius temps right now at idle, and I like those numbers.

What do you think?
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 7, 2014 9:34:55 AM

Try all 4 first. You can always remove DIMMs if you see an issue. Either way is fine.

Until you get the system stable, it is more difficult to test the CPU. It is very unlikely that this is the problem.

I would leave the water cooler/CPU alone. Your temps are good. That is not likely contributing to the issues at hand.

Test your memory and check out a basic config first. Good luck!
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February 7, 2014 9:47:32 AM

COLGeek said:
Try all 4 first. You can always remove DIMMs if you see an issue. Either way is fine.

Until you get the system stable, it is more difficult to test the CPU. It is very unlikely that this is the problem.

I would leave the water cooler/CPU alone. Your temps are good. That is not likely contributing to the issues at hand.

Test your memory and check out a basic config first. Good luck!


Ok thanks again. The temp is good so it would not be a heat issue...but is there anyway to test put the CPU just in case there is something else up? A moderator at asus forums also said to try and disabled the launch csm in the bios...what are your thoughts on that?
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 7, 2014 10:12:04 AM

Worth a shot to do as they propose. I am a fan of simplifying things to try to isolate the issues when facing behaviors like you have been experiencing.
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February 7, 2014 10:15:20 AM

COLGeek said:
Worth a shot to do as they propose. I am a fan of simplifying things to try to isolate the issues when facing behaviors like you have been experiencing.


:)  Me too. Thanks.

I know you obviously can't say for sure - but what does your gut tell you is most likely to be my issue?
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 7, 2014 10:18:30 AM

Could be as simple as a memory issue. Also, be sure to reset your BIOS to its default state before you begin the simplified config install (if you go that route).

You want everything (CPU and memory especially) to be running at stock speeds until you know the system is stable.
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February 7, 2014 10:39:39 AM

COLGeek said:
Could be as simple as a memory issue. Also, be sure to reset your BIOS to its default state before you begin the simplified config install (if you go that route).

You want everything (CPU and memory especially) to be running at stock speeds until you know the system is stable.



Sure thing. I've been powering off, unplugging, switching the jumper, waiting 5 minutes each time I test something - just to be sure. I'd LIKE to pull the CMOS battery, but I just can't get the damn thing out...it is very tightly crammed in that area of the mobo and my fingers are too big to get a good enough grip on it and move the tab aside that is holding it in place.

My intentions tonight are to try setting "Launch CSM" to disabled first...then proceed as needed. I will likely break down to a single SSD + single HDD anyway - to see if I can figure out why my secondary HDD is not working after switching it from the BEIGE to BROWN SATA ports last night. It was just fine prior...

One thing to keep in mind is that I have no overclocked anything in my build, everything is running at stock. To date I haven't ever tinkered with any overclocking - I've always been too petrified about damaging one or more components and having to spend money I don't have replacing them. ;) 

I'll let you know later tonight how things worked out.

If you - or anyone else - happen to think of anything else I should try or do, please let me know.

Thanks,
-Rob

Once this is all up and running I would like to find a benchmarking/testing tool that can exercise my components. Any suggestions?
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February 7, 2014 9:58:53 PM

As promised here is my update at this point.

Well, I worked on this all evening:



1) Single SSD and the DVD drive....no issues at all, none. It never once gave me grief during any restart or anything...and I did it about 25 times.



2) 2x SSDs in a RAID.....almost instantly caused trouble. Same behavior as before.



I started loading device drivers at this point, trying to find the one causing me trouble. So far no luck. RAID, ACPI, all updated but the behavior still exists. I'm installing all of the Window Updates right now, hoping that maybe one of them may resolve the issue somehow.



After this is complete I'll do Memtest and see what else I can locate to test out...



Then I'll have to do the stupidly boring task of checking each device driver to be sure it is the most recent.



Someone REALLY should come up with an automatic way for this to get done. UGH!



-Rob
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February 8, 2014 1:16:49 PM

If I delete the array, reload the system and apply the Kingstos firmware to the drives and THEN put them in an array and re-install Windows 7 will the firmware still be there? How can I tell?
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 8, 2014 2:00:35 PM

Yes, the firmware will survive that. No worries.
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February 8, 2014 2:14:44 PM

COLGeek said:
Yes, the firmware will survive that. No worries.


Then that is what I am trying now...I hope it works
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 8, 2014 2:17:21 PM

Good luck. Good to know that the CPU/memory/mobo/etc is good to go. Now just need to work out the kinks with the RAID config. You are doing well.
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February 8, 2014 3:22:47 PM

COLGeek said:
Good luck. Good to know that the CPU/memory/mobo/etc is good to go. Now just need to work out the kinks with the RAID config. You are doing well.


Thanks COLGeek

Here is the update.

OK, I reloaded with the 2 SSDs in ACHI and yes, I can see the firmware for the drives finally. Thanks!

Unfortunately, I don't think that will get me any closer to the solution since the firmware for both drives is listed by the tool at 507KC4 - and it says that there is no firmware update required.

When I checked online the latest firmware I knew about was 503 from Kingston, which I wasn't expecting to find and downloaded earlier - couldn't even get it from Kingston, I had to search it out and grabbed it from another site.

What is this one? I never heard of 507KC4.

So, now I'm back on the RAID controller of the motherboard being the most likely culprit.

BTW - With the 2 SSDs in ACHI reboots of the system are instantaneous - literally seconds from restart command to back up in Windows 7. Wow.

So....the RAID controller on the ASUS Sabertooth Z87 motherboard seems to be the issue. I've loaded the very latest driver for the RAID controller from ASUS - and still nothing. Slower reboot times (20-30 seconds)and constant freezes. When the drives are NOT in a RAID everything works just fine.

I want to have my system SSDs in a RAID 0 and my data drives in RAID 1 - so unfortunately I guess a call to ASUS is in order. Ugh.

Wish me more luck. I hate talking to those techs since they are just plain useless.

-Rob


Thanks for the help.



-Rob
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February 8, 2014 4:57:04 PM

COLGeek said:
I would suggest getting the latest RAID drivers from Intel (IRST). Go here to download:

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/SearchResult.aspx?lang...


OK thanks. I'll give that a shot later on tonight. Thanks again, I appreciate the help - that's FAR easier than calling ASUS.

So, I'm going to create the array on both SSDs - install WIndows, and after it starts I'll update to that driver and see what happens.

Sound about right?

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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 8, 2014 8:02:07 PM

Yep. You will need to have the RAID driver available during the install. Updating after won't be an issue.
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February 8, 2014 9:29:57 PM

Guess what!

It works now! The missing link the entire time was the RAID controller driver...just like COLGeek said. I went to the Intel website, downloaded it...and it works!!! Holy hell that was painful.

I finally have a brand new working system - no more freezes on reboots. Perfection. It boots up from cold start or restarts to able to use OS in approximately 30 seconds.

I'm downloading and installing the host of Windows 7 updates I need, but so far so good. I hope that the browser issue I noted is gone as well, but we shall see.

My thanks to COLGeek who really came through for me on this one.

WELL DONE!

-Rob
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February 8, 2014 11:06:29 PM

OMFG! I completed all of the Windows updates and that damn freezing issue is BACK!!!!!

The system called for over 150 updates, all important....and now my system is freezing on every reboot again.

WTH!?!?

I tried re-installing the Intel RAID controller driver again, but no luck. I'm going to poke around through the updates and see if I find one dealing with RAID controllers, but I doubt I'll get that lucky.

I'm open to any and all suggestions again.

This sucks big time.

-Rob

PS - The funky browser issue I had during one of my earlier builds is now gone - unfortunately the old freezing on reboots is back. It was working PERFECTLY before the Windows updates.

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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 9, 2014 6:52:57 AM

DId you ever get to testing your memory?
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February 9, 2014 6:56:47 AM

I sure did, no problems at all the complete pass was run on all 4 DIMMs at once with no issues found.

This is definately not a hardware issue now, it's software. It was working perfectly before those damn Windows updates messed it up somehow.

I just can't figure out why. Any thoughts?

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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 9, 2014 9:02:37 AM

Are all the updates applied, including SP1? I would try this, update everything and re-install the IRST application/drivers. BTW, what status does IRST report for the RAID config?
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February 9, 2014 10:16:53 AM

COLGeek said:
Are all the updates applied, including SP1? I would try this, update everything and re-install the IRST application/drivers. BTW, what status does IRST report for the RAID config?


Yes all of the windows updates are installed including SP1 that was all updated I reinstalled the driver for the video card reinstalled the raid driver that you showed me and it still doesn't work. how do I check the IRST statis of the RAID?
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February 9, 2014 10:18:25 AM

I do not want to reinstall everything from the beginning, but I will if I have to. do you think I need to do that?
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 9, 2014 11:18:09 AM

Open IRST itself (was installed when you installed the application/driver package in Windows.
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February 9, 2014 11:55:36 AM

12641974,0,232581 said:
Open IRST itself (was installed when you installed the application/driver package

Okay what should I look for on that tool?
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 9, 2014 2:08:07 PM

What is reported on the status tab?
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February 9, 2014 2:17:52 PM

COLGeek said:
What is reported on the status tab?


Current status your system is functioning normally shows the array with no issues also shows my nonreaders hard drives and my DVD drive at the bottom underperformance it has the dynamic storage Excelerator set to disabled you might want to know that I just installed my HP printer software for an OfficeJet Pro 8600 long with the greeting card program from American Greetings called create a card select six which is really old software in the freezing on reboot issue is back again what is going on here?
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 9, 2014 2:34:17 PM

Honestly, I am stumped. Seems like a possible SSD firmware/motherboard chipset issue when in RAID, but I can't confirm for you. The clue is in the single driver performance being solid. I need to think about this more.
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 9, 2014 2:44:31 PM

BTW, I pinged some of my fellow mods to see if they have any ideas for you.
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February 9, 2014 5:03:42 PM

COLGeek said:
BTW, I pinged some of my fellow mods to see if they have any ideas for you.


Thank you, but I was able to figure this one out. I unistalled the HP printer driver and creatacard select 6, them had to remove and reinstall the RAID controller driver and IRST software...after which it worked again. I then imstalled the select 6 software again and it broke once more. I fixed it again and tried the printer driver, and it worked without freezes. The old card software did it - it is 12 years old after all. No biggie, at least I fixed it. We will just get a new card graphics software package. Thanks again for the help...hopefully the trouble is over since I don't have any more hadware to install yet.
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 9, 2014 8:45:25 PM

Createacard is definitely not Win7 compatible. Piles of posts from folks here trying to make it so. Never thought of that one. Good job.
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February 9, 2014 8:49:22 PM

COLGeek said:
Createacard is definitely not Win7 compatible. Piles of posts from folks here trying to make it so. Never thought of that one. Good job.


Believe it or not...I did jave that workong on a previous Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit build, I just don't revall what I did. No matter, my wife ia ready to dump it now---finally. Thanks again, software installs ongoing with no more issues so far.
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 10, 2014 4:33:42 AM

Excellent news. Enjoy!
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February 10, 2014 3:01:14 PM

Well I think I found the true root of the problem the IR ST is what's causing the freezes when I remove that software from the system everything works perfectly can you explain to me why what is that tool do and what is a conflict thing with
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February 10, 2014 4:04:01 PM

Or maybe I haven't found the solution - even with the IRST removed from the system this issue STILL happens. I tried installing the software for my wife's Canon EOS Rebel digital camera - and it broke again...and worse, after I removed the software the freezing on reboot issue STILL happens. UGH!
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February 10, 2014 5:25:01 PM

Yup, very sporadic results now. I must have some weird kind of driver conflict going on or something. I simply can't figure this one out.

Calling ASUS now in fact.

Wish me luck.
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February 11, 2014 7:29:38 AM

OK,

Her is the current situation:

The system freezes at the post screen (ASUS TUF Logo) on any reboot WITHOUT a bootable CD in the drive. If a disc is in the drive it booted to Windows without any issues. VERY strange huh? The ASUS techs (once I could keep one on the telephone for more than 15 minutes without getting disconnected!) thought so too. Finally one of them decided to escalate my case to a higher (and hopefully more skilled) level of support for assistance some time tomorrow.

So, after a brief period of bashing my head against the wall repeatedly after being on the phone with ASUS "support" last night I decided to have a nice stiff drink and settle in for a long night of rebuilding and testing after every component.

Here is what I found: Building a new system nowadays is NOT as simple as it was in the past. :)  I discovered numerous situations that will cause the system to freeze at the post screen after a reboot. There are some that will go through (for unknown reasons) but most will freeze up.

1) The initial boot after deploying Win7 Ultimate 64-bit only includes the Windows assigned drivers - and any subsequent reboots will freeze the system until you install the myriad of drivers and software packages contained on the motherboard support DVD. The key being the Intel Rapid Start Technology drivers/software - if you deploy everything else and skip this one you will have freezes on reboots until you install it.

Oh and I hope you didn't forget to load the latest RAID drivers to during the Windows installation - because I could not find a way to do it after the install, and this one is imperative it seems or some conflicts occur and you will get freezes on reboots.

Once I deployed all of the drivers and software the reboots worked again with no issues - including the deployment of American Greetings Create-A-Card Select 6 AND the Canon Camera drivers/software. Even after 2 hours of Windows Updates (over 150 fixes deployed) I was able to reboot the system at will without a single freeze...I did this about 15 times before moving on.

I next installed the drivers and software for my HP OfficeJet Pro 8600 printer and connected it. The unit functioned without any issues.....until I rebooted the system and the freezing began again. If I have the printer disconnected (USB connection to a USB 2.0 port) the system reboots without any issues at all - once again I did this about 15-20 times without incident. If the printer is connected to the USB 2.0 port on the back of the computer it freezes up at the post screen on reboot EVERY single time.

I did some research (since I wasn't sleeping anyway) and found that this particular HP printer is NOT USB compliant - supposedly it doesn't work at all on USB 3.0 connections without a driver update -- but in my case I'm certain that I'm plugged into a USB 2.0 port on my motherboard. HP doesn't have a fix for this - you need to update the drivers from the motherboard manufacturer website - or Intel.

I was able to locate a USB 3.0 driver update from Intel, but the ASUS site has an even older one...so the Intel driver it will be - however I doubt this will fix my issue since I'm plugged into a USB 2.0 port. According to Device Manager the drivers for my USB 2.0 hub, etc ARE old...but I'm unable to locate a more recent version.

I'm hesitant to mess with it since my keyboard and mouse are USB connected, but I don't think I have any other choice - IF the USB 3.0 fix doesn't (IE. it won't) fix my issue.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
-Rob

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February 11, 2014 9:41:56 AM

Well, unfortunately the Intel USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller upgrade I learned about won't even install - I get a dialog box that my system doesn't meet the minimum requirements!

I suppose I can call HP while ASUS still tangles with it. :) 

Any thoughts? I'm also going to try to actually connect the printer to one of the USB 3.0 ports, to see if it behaves differently unlike the USB 2.0 ports.
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a c 212 V Motherboard
February 11, 2014 9:51:20 AM

Is legacy mode enabled in the USB BIOS settings? If not, enabling that may help with the printer issues. It certainly won't harm anything to set it this way.
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February 11, 2014 10:04:32 AM

Yeah, I checke under the Advanced section of the BIOS and the USB configuration is set to Legacy USB Support - enabled, Intel xHCI Mode - Smart Auto and EHCI Hand-off - diasbled.

Those are the current, and default, settings. So there is nothing to change based on your suggestion.

Any more thoughts?
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!