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PC freezing after just around 5~30 minutes after startup

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February 28, 2014 2:06:18 PM

(sorry if I published this twice or in an inappropriate section; I'm new)

SPECs:
http://pastebin.com/BuRjYPMz
(taken via Speccy)

I've had this PC for around 3/4 years, and recently it started to shut-down unexpectedly (without warning) - this persisted for a short time (a couple months)? ...and was rare to occur.

However, my PC's now freezing, and it seems to be getting more and more frequent - it's rare that my system is fine for over 30-minutes.

I can't pinpoint if it's a hardware failure, or driver problem - all I know is my system becomes completely unresponsive rather randomly (no specific application running, CPU/RAM usage can be low when it occurs, and checking the temperature of such via Speccy shows nothing too unusual - I even tried downgrading back to my 4Gb [2x2Gb] I had several months before the shutdowns started (it didn't help))

Please help me out, I've no clue what the problem could even be - I am yet to perform a memtest (looks doubtful since I tried my old RAM and current RAM); anyone have any suggestions what I could do to troubleshoot this?

A thousand thanks in advance.

More about : freezing minutes startup

February 28, 2014 2:10:57 PM

Unexpected shutdowns are often caused by a failing or too small PSU. That would be my first assumption. The freezing could be related. or it could be registry errors. Run CCleaner and do the Clean and Registry portions both.
https://www.piriform.com/ccleaner
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February 28, 2014 2:17:20 PM

clutchc said:
Unexpected shutdowns are often caused by a failing or too small PSU. That would be my first assumption. The freezing could be related. or it could be registry errors. Run CCleaner and do the Clean and Registry portions both.
https://www.piriform.com/ccleaner


thanks for the fast reply - I actually already cleaned via CCleaner, just used the registry cleaner now - would it be worth also using defraggler as I still have it installed? (likely out of date)

and yes, I'm on the freezing system in question right now (I don't have an alternative handy)

My system is old, so perhaps the PSU is a little knackered?
I've noticed some dust, but nothing too excessive, could be worth cleaning it out if I knew how to do so properly
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February 28, 2014 2:26:14 PM

Yes, always keep the system defragged as much as possible. It won't help your immediate problem, but it will save wear and tear on the HDD and make access time quicker. I like Auslogic free defrag: http://www.auslogics.com/en/software/disk-defrag/

The problem could also be dried out thermal paste between CPU and cooler. Have you ever changed it? Are temps normal at idle and during high CPU usage? 71C is max it should safely reach: http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Athlon%20II%20X4%...

If the CPU gets extremely hot, it may throttle back to save itself, or it may shut down the system. But, I'm leaning towards the PSU.
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February 28, 2014 2:34:29 PM

clutchc said:
Yes, always keep the system defragged as much as possible. It won't help your immediate problem, but it will save wear and tear on the HDD and make access time quicker. I like Auslogic free defrag: http://www.auslogics.com/en/software/disk-defrag/

The problem could also be dried out thermal paste between CPU and cooler. Have you ever changed it? Are temps normal at idle and during high CPU usage? 71C is max it should safely reach: http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Athlon%20II%20X4%...

If the CPU gets extremely hot, it may throttle back to save itself, or it may shut down the system. But, I'm leaning towards the PSU.


The CPU is a little higher than it should be, but at one point I kept speccy open - the temperature read at 64/65C when it froze, and never went above 67 - could potentially be overheating, then; however, I don't know how to replace thermal paste (checking now it's ~59C)

Also, if the CPU is overheating, wouldn't the PSU's fan-speed increase? I may be completely wrong, but as far as I recall most systems do this to try and cool itself down, right?
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February 28, 2014 2:40:18 PM

Yes, the cooler fan should ramp up as the temps increase. 64C/65C is a bit warm but not an issue. Just shows the thermal paste is losing its thermal conductivity due to age. If you want a description of how to change it, let me know. But I don't think that is your problem.

Do you know the make and model of your PSU?
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February 28, 2014 2:44:49 PM

clutchc said:

Do you know the make and model of your PSU?


Afraid I really don't remember, and there was no documentation with my PC when I initially got it, I'll try checking online from where I got it from (yes, it was pre-built [although to specifications I needed]), but I doubt I'd be able to find out.

All I know is the power, which was either 350~400W, but that's not much help

Will edit if I find out the model

EDIT: I can't seem to find it at all; was from a company called "Mesh computers", around October 2010 if I remember rightly - judging by their current PSU range, I'm starting to think you may be right anyway

Is there any way to be certain this is the issue? I don't want to fork out for a replacement if it isn't even the problem
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February 28, 2014 3:03:45 PM

Okay, my system's been active without freezing for longer than has been typical lately; I even managed a brief "stress-test" via literally opening a bunch of tabs in Chrome until my CPU usage spiked at 100 - meanwhile, I kept speccy open to check temperature:

Read temperature @ 74C max. while all 4 cores spiked @ 100% for about 2 seconds;
I found this a little concerning, however:
Despite this, my system did not freeze
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February 28, 2014 3:13:41 PM

You could run something like Furmark to stress the GPU: http://www.ozone3d.net/benchmarks/fur/
And Prime95 to stress the CPU: http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft/

There's no way to tell 100% if it is a failing or weak PSU for sure. You could plag it into a kill-a-watt meter and watch the current draw and/or wattage. I have mine plugged into one of these all the time: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kill-A-Watt-Electricity-Moni...

Btw, I wouldn't stress the CPU anymore untill you can keep the temp from climbing above 71C. An occasional spike and back down is alright though.

Did CCleaner find a bunch of registry errors? Maybe that was the issue with crashing. But that would hardly be the cause of shut downs.
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February 28, 2014 3:19:10 PM

clutchc said:

And Prime95 to stress the CPU: http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft/

Btw, I wouldn't stress the CPU anymore untill you can keep the temp from climbing above 71C. An occasional spike and back down is alright though.

Did CCleaner find a bunch of registry errors? Maybe that was the issue with crashing. But that would hardly be the cause of shut downs.


Yeah I know I probably shouldn't have done that, but I made sure it would be quick; will try that tool to stress the CPU as linked

and no, CCleaner gave very few registry errors - I didn't count, but it was definitely nothing remotely unusual, so that seems doubtful.

I may try something like you linked for checking my PSU, but that'd be one of the last things I'd try as it's not something I have handy, so it'd be a purchase to make (and I'd rather avoid spending money if possible)


EDIT:
Performed a stress test using the tool suggested; temperature spiked to a max of 78C, then froze.

After a quick reboot, it's resting currently at ~65C
EDIT: now ~<61C (lowest ~55; highest ~62); usage @1%~7% (according to task manager)


So...CPU issue? maybe I used the test incorrectly?
May have to replace thermal paste anyway, but I've no idea how to do this - it's not something I'd done before
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February 28, 2014 5:39:04 PM

By resting, if you mean at idle, that is way too warm. Idle for the Athlon II X4 640 should be high 20Cs to low 30Cs with the stock cooler. If your cooler fan is spinning at a couple thousand RPM or so and is clean of dust and dirt, I would strongly advise removing the CPU cooler and replacing the TIM (thermal paste). Here's how...

1) Simply unplug the cooler's fan from the MB header, unlatch the lever on one side of the cooler, and unhook the clips from the retention bracket's tabs. Give the cooler a slight twist back and forth to break the seal of the old TIM until you can lift it off.
2) Then clean off the old TIM from the cooler base and the CPU with propylene alcohol or this cleaner: http://www.amazon.com/ArctiClean-60ml-Kit-30ml/dp/B0007... use a lint-free cloth. A coffee filter works well or lens cloths. If you have to remove the cpu, be careful of the delicate pins on the bottom side. Don't let them bend or you will not be able to reinsert them back into the socket without time consuming straightening.
3) Then apply a tiny dab of TIM ( http://www.amazon.com/ARCTIC-MX-4-Carbon-Based-Thermal-... ) about the size of a grain of uncooked rice to the center of the CPU. You don't have to spread around the TIM. It will spread on its own as the CPU heats up.
4) Replace the cooler the reverse way you took it off. Don't forget to plug back in the fan.

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2676
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March 1, 2014 5:40:58 AM

clutchc said:
By resting, if you mean at idle, that is way too warm. Idle for the Athlon II X4 640 should be high 20Cs to low 30Cs with the stock cooler. If your cooler fan is spinning at a couple thousand RPM or so and is clean of dust and dirt, I would strongly advise removing the CPU cooler and replacing the TIM (thermal paste). Here's how...


Can I just say thanks, you've been a great help!

Yeah I meant whilst idle, although it was just after a stress test so the temperature was probably still gradually cooling.

Checking now, the temperature was 40~50C when idle, shortly after booting (with no prior use since yesterday).

When I opened the case to take a quick look yesterday, I did notice my CPU's fan had some dust on its underside, and a fair amount underneath had gathered - should I try to clean this first (I'm unsure how to do so correctly), or replace its thermal paste regardless, since I've had this system for over 3 years anyway...?

EDIT: thermal remover wasn't available in the UK without £13 shipping costs, would http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arctic-Silver-ArctiClean-Materi... suffice?
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March 1, 2014 10:13:43 AM

...I'm quite concerned now as suddenly there's only 3 out of 4 active cores from my processor, indicated by my boot screen, and task-manager/speccy; this has only occurred today (as far as I know) - has my CPU been damaged as a result of insufficient cooling?

EDIT: Sorry, disregard this - went into system BIOS settings, changed core setup to auto (no idea why it was set to manual, especially confused as to why manual listed a 2nd->6th core for a quad-core processor...); doing so worked, so nevermind (although I've no clue why this happened in the first place, and only today)
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Best solution

March 1, 2014 11:48:17 AM

minihilly said:
clutchc said:
By resting, if you mean at idle, that is way too warm. Idle for the Athlon II X4 640 should be high 20Cs to low 30Cs with the stock cooler. If your cooler fan is spinning at a couple thousand RPM or so and is clean of dust and dirt, I would strongly advise removing the CPU cooler and replacing the TIM (thermal paste). Here's how...


Can I just say thanks, you've been a great help!

Yeah I meant whilst idle, although it was just after a stress test so the temperature was probably still gradually cooling.

Checking now, the temperature was 40~50C when idle, shortly after booting (with no prior use since yesterday).

When I opened the case to take a quick look yesterday, I did notice my CPU's fan had some dust on its underside, and a fair amount underneath had gathered - should I try to clean this first (I'm unsure how to do so correctly), or replace its thermal paste regardless, since I've had this system for over 3 years anyway...?

EDIT: thermal remover wasn't available in the UK without £13 shipping costs, would http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arctic-Silver-ArctiClean-Materi... suffice?


Yes, that's the same cleaner as the one I linked you to. If I'd have known you were in the UK, I would have linked you to the UK Amazon.

40C to 50C is safe, but definitely shows there is an issue with cooling. And your 100% load temps are way too high. If you have a small air compressor or a can of air, blow out the fan area of the cooler. And around the cooler itself if it looks coated with dust. But be careful. Don't get too close so as to blow anything loose from the motherboard. Use short bursts and keep the can vertical or it will dispense water vapor.

Check the temps after that. If no change, then I would recommend cleaning/replacing the TIM.

When your BIOS settings are set manual for that selection, it assumes you may have any AMD socket AM3 CPU up to a 6 core.
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March 1, 2014 12:39:48 PM

clutchc said:
40C to 50C is safe, but definitely shows there is an issue with cooling. And your 100% load temps are way too high. If you have a small air compressor or a can of air, blow out the fan area of the cooler.

Check the temps after that. If no change, then I would recommend cleaning/replacing the TIM.


Cheers man, will try this ASAP and post results/mark this as the solution.

Really appreciate the help, particularly how quick you were to respond.
Thank you.
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March 1, 2014 1:01:02 PM

Earlier you were saying that your CPU's fan speed never ramped up when the processor temp increased. Is that still an issue?
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March 1, 2014 4:08:56 PM

clutchc said:
Earlier you were saying that your CPU's fan speed never ramped up when the processor temp increased. Is that still an issue?


sorry, got to type this quickly and edit later:

I did a quick clean of dust via literally using a blow-dryer (heatless setting), and carefully blowing air to clear dust/fluff out - managed to get my heatsink a lot cleaner (top had thin layer of dust), and when I booted I checked via speccy to show 40C temperatures now (a big improvement), while I left the case off.

However, to my surprise my system still froze, then froze on the windows startup screen...

EDIT:
froze again while opening speccy to check current temperature (managed to still get a reading of 47C; although note I had Chrome open for this reading; CPU usage around 7%)

I'm afraid I don't know if my CPU's fan speed increased appropriately at all, and if I continue to freeze as soon as I manage to launch speccy, I'm unsure how I could otherwise find out - note I did check the speed while idle, and it was around 2500 RPM (normal?)


Regardless, the fact my system froze with a temperature reading of 40 (while idle) is extremely strange - note I did NOT launch any programs, but nor did I manage to spot any changes to running processes...could this maybe be a software or driver problem, or...?

EDIT2:
System seems to be stable (or, at least, not crashing during or shortly-after startup as it did 3-or-4 times)

Launched speccy: temperature currently 44C; fan speed 2385 RPM
Will try a stress-test in a moment, using what you'd suggested me to use prior

EDIT3:
Managed a stress test...guess what? No freeze!
Rose to a temperature of 64 max, after around 30~40 seconds when I decided to stop the test
Fan's speed definitely changed throughout the test - increasing to a max of I think 2556 RPM

After the test, my CPU cooled down to 46C

NOTE: all of this was done with my case REMOVED, as well as after a quick clean.
(I am yet to test with the case attached; but so far [bar several freezes beforehand...] things seem to be running smoothly)

HOPEFULLY FINAL EDIT:

Froze again, this time @ 43C according to speccy
This is really starting to confuse me

Just to confirm things:
The freeze this time also had 3 quick-freezes that followed before the Windows startup screen, then during, and THEN in the BIOS screen (where I changed it back to automatically detect what cores to use, since it reset back to manual (and 3 cores) for whatever reason; I also disabled an "ASUS Core Unlocker"* feature, as it was noted as 'unstable' to use)

*I've annoyingly forgotten the exact name of this

So, I'm running again...I have no idea for how long, and the further I try the more confused I'm getting here - to confirm my temperature did NOT exceed even 60C the times I had speccy open to check, and were barely above 40C when freezing, with no reason to "spike" in temperature or usage at all. It's boggling me completely here.

My CPU currently reads @25C WITH Chrome/task manager/speccy open
If I freeze again, like this, then there's almost-definitely some other issue here (I'll also post any new info in a new reply as this is getting too long; hope that doesn't count as bumping)
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March 2, 2014 2:59:09 AM

Sorry for that really long post previously.

Needless to say, I've done a LOT of cleaning inside my system - did another blow-dry to gather out additional dust (don't worry, it was on a cool setting, and I kept it away), then carefully detached my CPU's fan to brush away any fluff stuck on the heat sink (there was quite a bit); moved my PC from carpet onto my desk to avoid dust around the area until I clean it, and the temperature now reads as ~15C when idle, a dramatic change.

Took a long time to clean it and let it cool with the case removed, but it seems to be working fine; thanks for the help clutchc - fingers crossed I don't come back here with the issue still occurring!


EDIT: I may have spoken too soon, as it did freeze after several hours of use (a vast improvement, though); I think if I could clean out dust more thoroughly it may remedy the issue, since so far it's vastly improved it *fingers crossed*

FINAL EDIT:
Cleaning out the system a third and final time seems to have done the trick!
I'll never be quite sure why (guessing some dust stuck in a bad place), but to anyone curious reading this I used a hair-dryer on a heatless setting, and gently blew dust out of my machine, while using a folded, clean, sheet of paper and some cotton buds to catch fluff and thicker dust in areas (particularly around my CPU's fan and heatsink were some was present).

Annoyingly, I had to remove the heatsink (exposing the thermal paste) for about a minute to be able to clean it properly (as even with the fan removed it was too difficult to reach some bits of jammed fluff); but the risk proved worth it, as my system now appears to be running well, at ~32C when idle (CPU unlocker enabled) or ~26C (CPU unlocker disabled).
Thanks for the advice!
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