Architectural Firm Workstation

samh_cargo · Apr 23, 2014

Hi there, first post here.

Here is the workstation we want to buy :

Power Workstation (Intel® Xeon E5)
1 x Intel Xeon E5-2630 v2 2.6GHz LGA2011 6-Core 15MB CPU BX80635E52630V2
1 x Asus Z9PA-U8 Xeon LGA2011 E5-1600/2600 DDR3 Motherboard ATX
1 x Crucial 32GB ( 2 x 16GB ) DDR3 1866MHz ECC Registered Memory CT2K16G3ERSDD4186D
1 x Western Digital VelociRaptor 300GB 3.5" SATA 6.0 HDD WD3000HLHX
1 x PNY Quadro K600 1GB DDR3 Video Card VCQK600-PB
1 x Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
1 x Asus DRW-24B1ST 24x SATA Optical Drive DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B
1 x Corsair Hydro Series H60 Intel/AMD High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler CW-9060007-WW
1 x Corsair RM RM750 750W Fully Modular Power Supply CP-9020055-NA
1 x Fractal Design DEFINE XL R2 BLACK PEARL Full Tower Case FD-CA-DEF-XL-R2-BL
1 x Professional assembly and testing of your configuration [Included 1 year warranty] Workstation
1 x Microsoft Windows 7 PRO 64-bit English 1PK DVD OEM (FQC-00765)

This workstation is around 2600 CAN$.
We run Autodesk softwares (autocad and revit) and do 3d renderings. (SketchUp +VRAY, 3d max).

We want to upgrade either the number of cores or the graphic card. We want to chose one of these upgrades :
1 x Intel Xeon E5-2640 v2 2.0GHz LGA2011 8-Core 20MB CPU BX80635E52640V2
OR
1 x PNY Quadro K2000 2GB DDR5 Video Card VCQK2000-PB.

This will get us a little bit under 3000 CAN$. So witch one would be better for us ? Upgrading the number of cores (lesser clock speed) or graphic card (medium range over entry level) ?

Thanks guys ! Any comments will help !

Samuel

C12Friedman · Apr 23, 2014

I'm thinking the graphics upgrade will provide the bigger boost for buck since much of your work will be performed by the graphics anyway (and I'm not picturing a need for more than 12 threads running). I won't go into how the extra bandwidth of the higher speed ram will help (it will).

Summary: I'd personally upgrade the graphics

g-unit1111 · Apr 23, 2014

I personally wouldn't use a Xeon for this kind of rig, and if you're not overclocking purchasing a cooler would make no sense. But overclocking will provide a huge boost in AutoCAD and even other Autodesk software like Revit and Maya.

This is what I would suggest for your budget:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i7-4930K 3.4GHz 6-Core Processor ($636.98 @ Amazon Canada)
CPU Cooler: Thermaltake Water 3.0 Extreme 99.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($119.98 @ Newegg Canada)
Motherboard: Asus P9X79 LE ATX LGA2011 Motherboard ($250.07 @ DirectCanada)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR3-2133 Memory ($364.48 @ Newegg Canada)
Storage: OCZ Vertex 460 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($176.98 @ Newegg Canada)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($59.99 @ Canada Computers)
Video Card: PNY Quadro FX 1800 768MB Video Card ($426.35 @ Amazon Canada)
Case: Corsair 500R White ATX Mid Tower Case ($118.46 @ DirectCanada)
Power Supply: SeaSonic 750W 80+ Gold Certified ATX Power Supply ($152.80 @ Newegg Canada)
Optical Drive: Lite-On iHAS124-04 DVD/CD Writer ($18.99 @ Memory Express)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($154.79 @ DirectCanada)
Total: $2479.87
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-23 12:57 EDT-0400)

You could also upgrade the GPU to a higher end Fire Pro or a Quaddro K series but the 4930K will be far better for your uses than a Xeon will.

samh_cargo · Apr 23, 2014

g-unit1111 :

I personally wouldn't use a Xeon for this kind of rig, and if you're not overclocking purchasing a cooler would make no sense. But overclocking will provide a huge boost in AutoCAD and even other Autodesk software like Revit and Maya.

This is what I would suggest for your budget:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i7-4930K 3.4GHz 6-Core Processor ($636.98 @ Amazon Canada)
CPU Cooler: Thermaltake Water 3.0 Extreme 99.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($119.98 @ Newegg Canada)
Motherboard: Asus P9X79 LE ATX LGA2011 Motherboard ($250.07 @ DirectCanada)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR3-2133 Memory ($364.48 @ Newegg Canada)
Storage: OCZ Vertex 460 240GB 2.5" Solid State Disk ($176.98 @ Newegg Canada)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($59.99 @ Canada Computers)
Video Card: PNY Quadro FX 1800 768MB Video Card ($426.35 @ Amazon Canada)
Case: Corsair 500R White ATX Mid Tower Case ($118.46 @ DirectCanada)
Power Supply: SeaSonic 750W 80+ Gold Certified ATX Power Supply ($152.80 @ Newegg Canada)
Optical Drive: Lite-On iHAS124-04 DVD/CD Writer ($18.99 @ Memory Express)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($154.79 @ DirectCanada)
Total: $2479.87
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-04-23 12:57 EDT-0400)

You could also upgrade the GPU to a higher end Fire Pro or a Quaddro K series but the 4930K will be far better for your uses than a Xeon will.

Thanks for you input !
I've heard that the Xeon are more stable and more suited for a professionnal firm, is that correct ?
But how come the 4943K would be better thant the Xeon ? My PC builder site is clearly refering to Xeon for Autodesk, Adove, Solidworks...
Also, it won't propose Quadro video card with the i7, most of the choices are GeForce.

g-unit1111 · Apr 23, 2014

samh_cargo :

No Xeons are better suited for servers. You can use them in a rig but the low ECC RAM speeds and other limiting factors will make things very frustrating in the long run. The reason I say that the 4930K is better is because it has an unlocked multiplier, where Xeons don't. I run AutoCAD and Autodesk software on much older processors, and mine is an i5-3450 and it handles AutoCAD 2014 just fine. I do plan on upgrading to X79 at some point this year for those purposes. The other advantage of X79 is that it allows for larger amounts of RAM where most Xeon motherboards - especially Z87 and Xeon specific workstation motherboards - only have a max of 32GB. X79 allows for 64GB and in some configurations 96GB and 128GB and most motherboards can take advantage of RAM speeds beyond DDR3-1333, most will support up to DDR3-2400 and beyond. This will be a huge advantage particularly where you're working with drawings that have hundreds of layers and fine details.

Most part picker websites won't list Quaddros or even the newer Quaddro K series because they're older, slower, and have a far more limited market. But they're made for professional PCs where the GTX series are your average every day consumer / gaming cards.

samh_cargo · Apr 23, 2014

g-unit1111 :

samh_cargo :

No Xeons are better suited for servers. You can use them in a rig but the low ECC RAM speeds and other limiting factors will make things very frustrating in the long run. The reason I say that the 4930K is better is because it has an unlocked multiplier, where Xeons don't. I run AutoCAD and Autodesk software on much older processors, and mine is an i5-3450 and it handles AutoCAD 2014 just fine. I do plan on upgrading to X79 at some point this year for those purposes. The other advantage of X79 is that it allows for larger amounts of RAM where most Xeon motherboards - especially Z87 and Xeon specific workstation motherboards - only have a max of 32GB. X79 allows for 64GB and in some configurations 96GB and 128GB and most motherboards can take advantage of RAM speeds beyond DDR3-1333, most will support up to DDR3-2400 and beyond. This will be a huge advantage particularly where you're working with drawings that have hundreds of layers and fine details.

Most part picker websites won't list Quaddros or even the newer Quaddro K series because they're older, slower, and have a far more limited market. But they're made for professional PCs where the GTX series are your average every day consumer / gaming cards.

The way I understood it (readings blogs and forums) is that i7 are made for enthusiasts/gamers... Xeon are still more reliable right ? We are a company after and we are growing. How can a i7 could be better than, lets say, CPU Intel Xeon E5-2650 v2 2.6GHz + GPU Quadro K2000D ? For a business, still need professionnal quality, not just pure performance. Yes, budget went up

g-unit1111 · Apr 23, 2014

samh_cargo :

No i7s are general usage CPUs, Xeons are more specialized for servers and high volume use. For your average every day uses you want an i7. If you're running a large server or a render farm, or something of that nature, that's where you would want a Xeon. Most PCs even for business use run Intel i3/i5/i7. There's very, very few instances where you'd see a Xeon operating instead of one of those. Like I said the limiting RAM speeds and capacity on Z87 Xeons and the slower RAM speeds will be far more frustrating in the long run. On Xeons you can only use up to DDR3-1600 as long as it's ECC certified. With an i7 you don't have that limiting factor - you can use up to DDR3-2400. On those very fine redraws especially with Revit and Maya, that's where it will help significanty. It certainly doesn't take a lot to run most AutoCAD functions and I use version 2014 on my PC every day.

bambiboom · Apr 23, 2014

Samh_cargo,

For your current uses and to allow for expansion into future professional applications, I would recommend staying with Socket LGA2011, Xeons, and error-correcting RAM.

Assuming that you are interested in six or more CPU cores for rendering, in my view, instead of the Xeon E5-2630, a better cost / performance choice would be to use the Xeon E5-1650 v2 , principally because it runs at 3.5 / 3.9GHz and having a higher clock speed in addition to maintaining the core / thread count is going to improve performance in all applications>

http://ark.intel.com/products/75780/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-1650-v2-12M-Cache-3_50-GHz

http://www.superbiiz.com/query.php?s=e5-1650+v2

At about $580, the E5-1650 v2 is approximately $70 less expensive than the E5-2630.

It's difficult to compare, but I believe that running the 6-cores of the E5-1650 v2 at 3.5GHz will more than compensate for having the 8-cores at 2.0GHz of the E5-2640 v2, which also costs about $925 in the US.

I believe that a better hard drive configuration would be to use for the OS, applications, and quick load active projects files, a Samsung Evo 120GB at about $85

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147247

> and for storage and to keep a system image,

WD BLACK SERIES WD1003FZEX 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive > $85

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147247

The WD Black 1TB is respectably fast for a mech'l drive.

The two drives total about $170. With the $70 saved on the CPU and the $120 the Velociraptor would cost, the net savings of the two changes is about $20.

As for the graphics card, if you are going to be using 3DS Max, and rendering, you will need a professional graphics card (Quadro or Firepro) to run the special drivers for viewports and higher anti-aliasing. The Quadro K600 is a good performer in 2D, but terrible in 3D, and I feel even the K2000 is minimal. My suggestion is to consider taking the $425 cost of the K2000 and instead buy a good used Quadro 5000 (2.5GB). On Passmark Performance Test, the top 3D score of a Quadro K600 is 890, top K2000 is 1829, and for Quadro 5000, the high 3D= 2439. the K2000 would be adequate, but tthe Quadro 5000 is producing a 25% bonus for the same cost. in the last 12 years, I've had 5 used Quadros and without one failure. A 2004 FX580 (512MB) is still working perfectly.

Keep the ECC RAM and with a good Quadro, there will no worries over artifacts, bizarre shadows, vague reflections, and etc.

Another Option > If you are adventurous and handy, you might also consider refurbishing a good used Dell Precision T7500 with 2X Xeon x5680, a six core running at 3.33 / 3.47 GHz. You would then have 12 cores/ 24 threads running at 3.33GHz and, I believe, involving noticeably less cost and time than researching, ordering, assembling, configuring, testing, and troubleshooting a new system.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

HP z420 (2014) > Xeon E5-1620 quad core @ 3.6 / 3.8GHz > 24GB ECC 1600 RAM > Quadro 4000 (2GB)> Samsung 840 SSD 250GB /Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > AE3000 USB WiFi > HP 2711X, 27" 1920 X 1080 > Windows 7 Ultimate 64 >[Passmark system rating = 3923, 2D= 839 / 3D=2048]

Dell Precision T5400 (2008) > 2X Xeon X5460 quad core @3.16GHz > 16GB ECC 667> Quadro FX 4800 (1.5GB) > WD RE4 500GB / Seagate Barracuda 500GB > M-Audio 2496 Sound Card / Linksys 600N WiFi > Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit >[Passmark system rating = 1859, 2D= 512 / 3D=1097]

2D, 3D CAD, Image Processing, Rendering, Text > Architecture, industrial design, graphic design, written projects

samh_cargo · Apr 23, 2014

Thanks guys, these hints are very useful.

@Bambiboom : Those specs would be perfect, but it will cost a fortune. Our budget is around 3000 CAN$. I'll see what I can do.
One big question remain : We don't have any servers or render farms in the office, this machine will be the only one (for now) to do 3d renderings. Is it still worth it to invest into a Xeon ? Should I go to a strong i7 since I'm not connected to any other machine ?

Edit : This computer will not work 24/7. Maybe 9hrs/day, 1 night per week maybe, no weekends.

bambiboom · Apr 23, 2014

samh_cargo,

In my view, and from experience, todays' applications are becoming so demanding, that it is necessary to have systems of high performance in several directions : CUDA /GPU accleration, Open GL /CL, high clock speed and core count, error correcting memory and fast disk subsystem with a lot to capacity. I don't believe that for professional use in a 3D CAD modeling / rendering situation that a consumer / gaming system will present satisfactory performance. there are some professional application in which a consumer / gaming card will work well, but then it may be incredibly hobbled for other applications. The demands are such that my ideal GPU today is the Quadro K5000 (4GB, $1,700) which can do everything well.

As well as doing this kind of work myself, I am in contact with a lot of architectural, engineering, industrial design, offices, plus instrumentation laboratories and CNC contract firms, and any system used for the core work is a professional workstation and using Xeon. and I notice that all new machines in these offices are also Xeons- a local architectural / engineering firm is changing Precision 690's for Precision T3610's. These days, I only see MACs in graphic design.

That said, I think you can have a very good, professional system usable up to 5-6 years near or within your budget.

Here is a system idea, in US $ with similar reliability and higher performance than the $2600 CAN system. >:

BambiBoom PixelCannon Cadarendercompugrapharific iWork TurboBlast Extreme SuperModel XXVI ®©$$™®£™©™_ 3.24.14

1. Intel Xeon E5-1650 v2 Six-Core Processor 3.5/ 3.9GHz 0GT/s 12MB LGA 2011 CPU, OEM $579.99

2. Cooler Master Seidon 120XL RL-S12X-24PK-R1 120mm CPU Liquid Cooling System FAN-RLS12X $75.99

3. Asus P9X79-E WS LGA2011/ Intel X79/ DDR3/ 4-Way CrossFireX & 4-Way SLI/ SATA3&USB3.0/ A&2GbE/ CEB Motherboard MB-P9X79ES $469.99

4. 32GB (4) Samsung DDR3-1866 8GB/1Gx72 ECC/REG CL13 Samsung Chip Server Memory D3-18R8GS3$375.96 ($93.99 ea)

5. PNY NVIDIA Quadro K4000 3GB GDDR5 DVI/2DisplayPorts PCI-Express Video Card PNY-K4000 $755.99

6. Samsung 840 Pro Series 256GB 2.5 inch SATA3 / SATA 6.0 GB/s Solid State Drive, Retail (MLC) MZ-7PD256B$ $209.99

7. Western Digital 2 TB SATA III 7200 RPM 64 MB Cache Bulk/OEM Desktop Hard Drive, Black, WD2003FZEX > $168 (Files, Backup, System Image)

8. Seasonic X-750 750W 80 PLUS Gold ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply PS-SS750KM$148.99

9. Samsung SH-224DB/BEBE 24X SATA DVD±RW Internal Drive w/o Software (Black) SH-224DB $17.99

10. LIAN LI PC-A75X No Power Supply ATX Full Tower Case (Black) CA-A75$179.99

11. Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64-bit w/ SP1 (1-Pack, DVD), OEM MSFQC04649 $138.99

TOTAL = $3,121.86

Notice this includes the OS, a very good workstation motherboard, 32GB ECC RAM, a 256GB SSD, and a $755 Quadro K4000 (3GB). There should be enough economies that a similar system with down rated motherboard, 120GB instead 256GB SSD, 16GB RAM, 1TB storage drive, and lesser GPU, could cost less than $3,000 CAN. the last component on which to economize would be the GPU and even then, consider trying for a good lightly used or "new other" K4000 which are about $550-600 now.

That of course, requires some fussing to order, build, and configure, but after sorting it out, would have a very good performance and reliability.

In a lot of ways, the used T7500 with dual Xeon x5680's and a Quadro 5000- looks better and better for your use. It could sit all day / night in the corner with it's 12 cores / 24 threads at 3.33GHz turning our renderings. Dell Precisions are very closely related to servers, and you could use one to create a rendering node on your LAN. Add a fast, say, 3TB RAID 1+0 and network card, and all the systems could send renderings to that system in a queue and then, the others would be free for modeling.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

samh_cargo · Apr 23, 2014

bambiboom :

samh_cargo,

In my view, and from experience, todays' applications are becoming so demanding, that it is necessary to have systems of high performance in several directions : CUDA /GPU accleration, Open GL /CL, high clock speed and core count, error correcting memory and fast disk subsystem with a lot to capacity. I don't believe that for professional use in a 3D CAD modeling / rendering situation that a consumer / gaming system will present satisfactory performance. there are some professional application in which a consumer / gaming card will work well, but then it may be incredibly hobbled for other applications. The demands are such that my ideal GPU today is the Quadro K5000 (4GB, $1,700) which can do everything well.

As well as doing this kind of work myself, I am in contact with a lot of architectural, engineering, industrial design, offices, plus instrumentation laboratories and CNC contract firms, and any system used for the core work is a professional workstation and using Xeon. and I notice that all new machines in these offices are also Xeons- a local architectural / engineering firm is changing Precision 690's for Precision T3610's. These days, I only see MACs in graphic design.

That said, I think you can have a very good, professional system usable up to 5-6 years near or within your budget.

Here is a system idea, in US $ with similar reliability and higher performance than the $2600 CAN system. >:

BambiBoom PixelCannon Cadarendercompugrapharific iWork TurboBlast Extreme SuperModel XXVI ®©$$™®£™©™_ 3.24.14

1. Intel Xeon E5-1650 v2 Six-Core Processor 3.5/ 3.9GHz 0GT/s 12MB LGA 2011 CPU, OEM $579.99

2. Cooler Master Seidon 120XL RL-S12X-24PK-R1 120mm CPU Liquid Cooling System FAN-RLS12X $75.99

3. Asus P9X79-E WS LGA2011/ Intel X79/ DDR3/ 4-Way CrossFireX & 4-Way SLI/ SATA3&USB3.0/ A&2GbE/ CEB Motherboard MB-P9X79ES $469.99

4. 32GB (4) Samsung DDR3-1866 8GB/1Gx72 ECC/REG CL13 Samsung Chip Server Memory D3-18R8GS3$375.96 ($93.99 ea)

5. PNY NVIDIA Quadro K4000 3GB GDDR5 DVI/2DisplayPorts PCI-Express Video Card PNY-K4000 $755.99

6. Samsung 840 Pro Series 256GB 2.5 inch SATA3 / SATA 6.0 GB/s Solid State Drive, Retail (MLC) MZ-7PD256B$ $209.99

7. Western Digital 2 TB SATA III 7200 RPM 64 MB Cache Bulk/OEM Desktop Hard Drive, Black, WD2003FZEX > $168 (Files, Backup, System Image)

8. Seasonic X-750 750W 80 PLUS Gold ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply PS-SS750KM$148.99

9. Samsung SH-224DB/BEBE 24X SATA DVD±RW Internal Drive w/o Software (Black) SH-224DB $17.99

10. LIAN LI PC-A75X No Power Supply ATX Full Tower Case (Black) CA-A75$179.99

11. Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64-bit w/ SP1 (1-Pack, DVD), OEM MSFQC04649 $138.99

TOTAL = $3,121.86

Notice this includes the OS, a very good workstation motherboard, 32GB ECC RAM, a 256GB SSD, and a $755 Quadro K4000 (3GB). There should be enough economies that a similar system with down rated motherboard, 120GB instead 256GB SSD, 16GB RAM, 1TB storage drive, and lesser GPU, could cost less than $3,000 CAN. the last component on which to economize would be the GPU and even then, consider trying for a good lightly used or "new other" K4000 which are about $550-600 now.

That of course, requires some fussing to order, build, and configure, but after sorting it out, would have a very good performance and reliability.

In a lot of ways, the used T7500 with dual Xeon x5680's and a Quadro 5000- looks better and better for your use. It could sit all day / night in the corner with it's 12 cores / 24 threads at 3.33GHz turning our renderings. Dell Precisions are very closely related to servers, and you could use one to create a rendering node on your LAN. Add a fast, say, 3TB RAID 1+0 and network card, and all the systems could send renderings to that system in a queue and then, the others would be free for modeling.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I had an eye on the E5-1650 all night, then I saw your message. This is great help, wasn't expecting so much, thanks a lot ! Cheers !

g-unit1111 · Apr 23, 2014

samh_cargo :

I personally would still not get a Xeon. If you're that dead set on getting I guess there's no changing yours or anyone else's minds. But one thing I will tell you is that you don't need a liquid cooler since Xeons can't be overclocked. I don't know if Xeons come with fans or not but if they don't a Hyper 212 Evo would suffice.

bambiboom · Apr 24, 2014

[/quotemsg]

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I had an eye on the E5-1650 all night, then I saw your message. This is great help, wasn't expecting so much, thanks a lot ! Cheers ![/quotemsg]

samh_cargo,

Yes, the E5-1650 v2 seems to have among the best cost / performance ratio. The Xeon E3 series are very good, but the E5 / LGA2011 has double the memory bandwidth and controllers, and importantly supports 4,6,8,10, and 15 core CPU's.

By the way, if you build the system yourself, be very particular about choosing the RAM from the current motherboard man'f. approved vendor's list.

You're very welcome!

Cheers,

BambiBoom

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