Need help with picking video card. (UPDATE - getting a new MB now)

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Elrynon

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Hey everyone, I pieced together an older computer for my son to play around on (he's six) and I need help choosing a video card. The motherboard I have is the ecs 945gct-m3, with an E6700 2.6 dual core cpu and 2gb of ram(the max this board can handle). I have a *cough*tier 5 deer 500w*cough* PSU.

Right now we're using the integrated grapics to play minecraft/flash games/Guild Wars but I would like to get him a dedicated graphics card. I would LIKE to be able to get something that is on par with the other parts. I've seen people recommending the 8800GTS, GT450, and HD7xxx series for this CPU. I'd like to stay as close to $50ish as possible (If there's a rebate that brings it down to that price range I'll consider it). I THINK I need to stay with a PCI-e x16 1.0 but MAY be able to go to PCI-e X16 2.0 (I've contacted ECS about what version this slot can handle as I've seen a LOT of people saying that not all PCI-e 1.0 slots can handle 3.0 cards)

I was about to get the R7 240 ($70ish with $20 rebate) but A)it's PCI-e 3.0 and B)I worry that it would be a waste. I saw one person that worded it perfectly, "Why have a GPU that can render 1000 trees if the rest of your parts can only handle 100?". Thanks for any help.

****Breakdown for those that don't like to read***

*ECS 945gct-m3 Motherboard
*2gb of RAM(max allowed on board)
*Tier 5 500W PSU
*$50-$75 budget (as close to the $50 as possible)
*Need to stick close to PCI-e x16 1.0 (Not sure if board can handle 2.0 or 3.0 as people go back and forth about it)
*Best card without being a waste

Edit: We are on a tight budget. If your response is "Man, that stuff is old/sucky. Just buy something new" then please don't bother responding. That's not an option for us. I KNOW it's old/sucky. Trust me. I KNOW. I know this sounds harsh but I get tired of reading threads where someone is looking for REAL help and they get snark remarks about how old/sucky their stuff is. Some of us do the best we can afford even if we can't afford the best. If you feel like you can help with advice about a graphics card then I greatly appreciate the help.
 
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freeracercolin
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freeracercolin

freeracercolin

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What I think will be the best are these 2 cards:
First:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121778&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3938566&SID=

I chose this card because it is more recent than the next option, cheaper, but I think (I could be wrong) it has worse performance than the second option. It is PCI 2.0, so it should work with your parts. Right now it is 49.99 after rebate on Newegg.

Second:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102942&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3938566&SID=
This one is slightly more expensive, coming in at $59.99 after rebate on Newegg. It is PCI 2.1 (which I didn't know existed), but it should still work. It has better performance than the GT 630, but at the slightly higher price.

All in all, I would go with the Sapphire Radeon 6570. It is slightly more expensive, but it is worth it in my opinion. Both cards have 4 star reviews on Newegg, with this having 62% 5-star vs the 630 with 52%. Bith these cards should be able to play all your said games fine, though they might not run at max settings, but for a 6 year old, it should be fine. Both these cards also leave a little room for the next games he might get into, such as (for example) WoW, Dota, or LoL.

Hope this helped,

Colin.
 
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clutchc

clutchc

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I pretty much have to go along with freeracercolin's recommendations for the price you state and considering the rest of the system. Anything more would be a waste of money. Btw, I have never heard of a PCIe 3.0 card not working in a 1.0 slot. PCIe is a backward compatible interface. There has been some issues with Version 1.1, but even that is questionable.
 
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fredericofrg

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Hey Elrynon,

Motherboard Specification Page : http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Product/Product_Detail.aspx?DetailID=719&MenuID=1&LanID=0


Well i would suggest you to go with the http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... (SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 6570 2GB DDR3 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card (100324L)
It's a bit more expensive but will compensate more then the another card.
Now if you can't really afford this a little bit more expensive one you should go with the:
ASUS GT630-SL-2GD3-L GeForce GT 630 2GB 64-Bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 Low Profile Ready Video Card ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121778&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3938566&SID= )

Tho you should have a look at your case and see if you have a good space there, because this last card the less expensive one is kind of big and will not be good if he gets very tight because can get at high temperatures and die very fast if you don't have a good space that can make the graphic card possible to be refrigerated.

Well i hope you can make it with the a little bit more expensive card :D
If you can't it's ok i'm sure your kid will be very happy anyways.

Good luck with that, let me know if you need anything else.
 
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Airm3n

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I would honestly jump to a card with ddr5 even if you end up with less vram. As I'm assuming you are going to have him gaming at a lower resolution it won't be much issue.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202056
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130808
Is what I would go with. If you are willing to spend a few extra dollars and go into the higher range like 75 to 100 dollars then:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500308
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202093
 
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Elrynon

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Freeracercolin, I'll honestly probably go with one of your suggestions. One thing I'm curious about your guys's opinion is what do you think about the R7 240 compared to these two? It's only 5 more than the 6570. Or am I just "wasting" a card?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814103245 is the one I was looking at. I'm honestly not worried about the one review because his was just Win8 driver problems.

There are also these R7 240's.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202055
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202056 ( With GDDR5 ram)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125516 ( This one is at the top of my budget but if it's worth it?)

I'm not trying to sound pushy about the 240. If you guys say it's not worth it then I'll gladly wash my hands of it and move on. It's just the one I had more or less decided on before I posted, but was still unsure about it all so instead decided to seek the help of the experts. :D

And then this one just to be annoying and because I saw it before closing newegg. :D http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814134119

Again, I'm going to take what you guys say to heart and if you think the HD 6570 is the winner then I won't try and second guess you. Thanks for the help guys!

Edit: fredericofrg, look like you're on the same page as freeracercolin. Airm3n, we must have posted at the same time. :D Since I already posted my question I'll wait and see what everyone says about the "waste" aspect of this card(the r7 240) compared to the rest of my components.
 
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freeracercolin

freeracercolin

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Yes, I would go with the R7 240, if your willing to spend the extra cash. You'll get better support (because it's newer), performance, lower power draw, and it's Crossfire capable(though the motherboard doesn't support it, you never know if your going to change the motherboard in the future). Of the cards you linked to, I would get the Gigabyte one for the higher clockspeed (thus performance), and for the peace of mind with the reviews, though it is $20 over your original price. If not that one, I would go with the SAPPHIRE 100369DDR5L as it's the same price as the 6570, and all the bad reviews have many dislikes, which shows that they are incorrect or it was user error, though it does have a lower clock speed (900 vs 780 respectively).
All of this is assuming that the possible bottle necking with the CPU doesn't bother you. If it does, go with the 6570.
 
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Elrynon

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Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the advice/suggestions. I decided to go with the R7 240 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814103252) I love the fact that the TDP is half of some of the older cards. Plus it has the GDDR5 ram on it. Between you guys and other pages I read, the 240 just seemed like the strongest contender. If we were in a different situation money wise I would have jumped into the next bracket of cards, but like fredericofrg said, my son will be happy with it regardless. Once I get the card and install it I'll post a follow up to let people know if/how it works. (It's a pet peeve of mine when people ask for help and then never follow up to say if that info actually helped them or not.) Again, thank you all for the help.
 
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Elrynon

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I got the card installed today(been busy) and............nothing. No post, nothing. I can hear 6 clicks, a pause, then 6 more clicks (no, it's not the harddrive, I've disconnected those during other tests to get the graphics card working). There's no onboard speaker that I can see, nor a place to connect one for post beeps.

I put the card in another machine and that machine boots right up. So the card works. I thought maybe it's my crappy PSU, so I swapped PSU's and still the same thing. I've tried disconnecting everything and even pulled the RAM and still nothing. Even the power LED doesn't come on. Just the fans (even the one on the graphics card, so I know it's at least getting power). Just the 6 clicks, pause, 6 clicks.

I've contacted Diamond, ECS and Gateway(because apparently ECS made this board FOR Gateway), so I'll have to wait to hear back from them. I'm at a loss here on what to do. I've disabled the onboard video. I've set the primary video display from auto to PEG and also changed the video boot device from PCI to PCIEx.

Sadly I don't think I'm going to get anywhere with ECS or Gateway because when I contacted ECS originally about PCI 3.0 cards working on their board they told me to contact Gateway because they made the board for gateway to gateway's specs. When I tried e-mailing gateway I got redirected to a link that said e-mail support wasn't available and then redirected to a page for chat support. Which says it's only available to customers under warranty. Should I start a new post with my problem? Or wait and see if people respond to this? Thanks ahead of time for any help.

*EDIT* Pulled the card and hooked everything back up except for the RAM, and the MB gave me the long "ram not found" beep. So I at least know the thing beeps POST. So now I really don't know what's going on.
 
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clutchc

clutchc

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Is there any chance of getting a BIOS update for that board from ECS? http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Product/Product_Detail.aspx?DetailID=719&MenuID=1&LanID=0

Update: I just checked the MB site. There is only one BIOS ever released for that board; circa 2007. I have a feeling that is the problem. And good 'ol ECS doesn't support their boards for s__t. I've never known of a MB that old that only had the initial BIOS and that was it. But check to be sure that it is the same one you have now, anyway.
 
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Elrynon

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Unfortunately, yeah. That's the only BIOS for this board. lol
I have a buddy who's going to let me try an old card of his. He's not sure what it is but he said he got it brand new when Battlefield first came out. He said he THINKS it's an Nvidia 200/300 series. *shrugs* Tonight/tomorrow I'm going to try a 3.0 card that has dedicated power to it instead of trying to get power from the board like the card I got.

A few questions though.

A)What changed from your last post where you said they would work together no problem, you've never heard of one not working backwards, to now sounding like it makes sense to you why they aren't compatible? (I hope that doesn't sound assy. I tried different ways of wording it. lol I'm asking so I can learn as well. I figure there has to be a reason you changed your views.)

B) I don't understand WHY they aren't compatible if everyone is so sure they're backwards compatible? Is it just PHYSICALLY compatible but "instructions"-wise the board just doesn't know what to do with the card?

C) What does this mean for me as far as my choice of cards then if my other 3.0 doesn't work? Try and keep finding different people that will let me try their spare cards? lol

I appreciate the help man. I'll let you know what happens with the other cards.
 
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clutchc

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It isn't that the 3.0 card isn't backward compatible in a 2.0 or 1.0 slot (and vice versa), it's that the older motherboard BIOS may not recognize the new card's 3.0 BIOS w/o a MB BIOS update. As a result it may fail to produce a display even though it may turn on. After the MB BIOS update, the card would then technically work fine (but at the lower 1.0/2.0 bandwidth).
 
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Elrynon

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Well, I can definitely say there's more going on than just "failing to produce a display".

Computer normal boot(onboard video) = all fans at full speed(until into windows and speedfan takes over) and power light on the front of the case is on.

Computer with RAM removed = fans at full speed, power light on, post beep for no RAM.

Computer with 3.0 video card installed = no light on the front, all fans running at min. speed, no display.

Computer with 3.0 video card installed and RAM removed = no light on the front, fans all running at min. speed, no display, NO post beep.

Personally (this is with limited knowledge of course, just from what I've read on the PCI-E Wiki), I'm thinking maybe it has to do with the fact that from 2.1 forward they changed the way the power/electricity was/is handled. The wiki even says that it broke backwards compatibility with some motherboards. Which is probably why there are people that (even though other people tell them it's not possible) have problems with 2.1 cards and up not working in 1.0a slots. The problem is, finding a definitive answer one way or another. It seems like it's just a big toss up in the air and nobody can really agree one way or another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_2.1 "Unfortunately, the increase in power from the slot breaks backward compatibility between PCI Express 2.1 cards and some older motherboards with 1.0/1.0a, but most motherboards with PCI Express 1.1 connectors are provided with a BIOS update by their manufacturers through utilities to support backward compatibility of cards with PCIe 2.1."
 
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Elrynon

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*sigh* I really should have expected this, but I just got e-mails from both ECS and DIAMOND. DIAMOND says the motherboard can't support/handle a 3.0 card and ECS says the card isn't compatible with a 1.0a slot. *bangs head on wall*
 
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Elrynon

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I put an R7 260X into the machine (with dedicated power) and the machine booted right up. So I'm wondering does the board get blamed for not pushing enough power to the PCI-E slot? Or does the card get blamed for trying to pull too much power since it gets all of it's power from the board? (No dedicated power on this card).

Another twist to throw in is that at one point I forgot to plug the six-pin plug into the 260X but the machine still booted fine (just no display). *shrugs* I don't know enough about the engineering details side of things to know what's going on. So I'm assuming that I either pick out a 2.0 card or a 3.0 card that's on par with the R7 240 but with dedicated power? Or do I contact other makers of the R7 240 and see if they can guarantee that their card will work with 1.0a because of the power issue?
 
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Elrynon

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Well, I REALLY didn't want to go this route, but I think I'm just going to get a new/different board. I was trying to keep the money in this thing to a minimum. My wife made a good point though. If we're going to spend $50-$70 on another video card that may or may not work why not just get another motherboard? lol This will also allow me to put more ram in the pc. Now off to find an LGA775 MB. Thanks for all the help! Sorry I wasted your guys time with this video card issue.
 
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freeracercolin

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Sorry for the problems. I'll be honest, this is the first time I have heard of backwards compatibility problems with PCI. If you want, I will be happy to help with finding a new Mobo. What's your budget?
 
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Elrynon

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Just to let everyone know, I figured out the problem. Well, actually it was figured out FOR me, but still. :D It's because the PCI-E slot on my board is a PCI-E Lite slot. Which means it will physically accept and run an x16 card, but only puts out the power for an X8 card. Which means it only puts out 25W of power. Someone over at overclock.net pointed it out last night.
 
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Elrynon

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See, I really don't even know if you want to call it backwards compatibility issues or not? Maybe one of those catch22 things? Either way, there's no reason to apologize. lol

As far as the board goes I'm looking for Micro-ATX, LGA775 slot(I'm moving over the E6700 2.6ghz cpu I just bought), NO PCI-E Lite :D, 240pin DDR2 800 RAM(This is the RAM I already have. Down the road in a few months I plan on getting another stick if I get a new board).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157337
This is the one I WAS looking at. I've seen people say though that there are much better boards out there even if I have to buy used. Budget.......I guess $50-$70? It's kind of up in the air for me. Just depends on what I find. That's about what I would have had to spend on a new graphics card anyway. Obviously I'm going to look for used boards as well though. Thanks for your help though!
 
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freeracercolin

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I seem to be unable to find a mobo with DDR2-800, but I have found many with DDR3-800. Is that what you meant?

Edit: looking at what you were looking at, DDR2-800 is what you meant. Time to look more....
 
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freeracercolin

freeracercolin

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I took the chipset that you are looking for from the mobo that you were looking at. G31 and G33 are the only that seem to have DDR2 support. G33 only had one result with one star on pcpartpicker.com. So I went with G31. Doing a bit of research, I found out something that you might not be confortable with. I have not looked to see if the mobos that are linked below have BIOS updates to recognize 3.0 cards, but g31 only has a PCIe 1.1 slot. I will continue doing research, but here are the motherboards that I found so far that fit the description. there are probably more, but this is just what I found on pcpartpicker.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131615
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138132
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135232
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128357
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153119
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813500033

G31 PCIe thing: http://www.intel.com/assets/pdf/prodbrief/317838.pdf
 
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Elrynon

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Wow......didn't expect all of that. :) Honestly, unless there's something you know that I don't, the chipset doesn't matter to me. That's just the easiest one I could find new on newegg to use as a "starting point". I found this one too. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121372 It has the G41, As long as the board takes my E6700 cpu, pcie-3.0 card and ddr2 800 ram *shrugs* I don't care. lol Obviously I don't want to go BACKWARDS from the 945gt I have. Until all of this came along I've never even LOOKED at chipsets before. So this is a whole new world to me.
 
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freeracercolin

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That looks good. I will continue looking, but it is getting late were I am (US eastern time), so don't expect a response till tomorrow.
 
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Elrynon

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We're in the same time zone then! :D That's cool man. I'll continue to look tonight when I have time. Don't put too much of your time into this though. I appreciate the help, but don't kill yourself over me. :) Have a good night.

*Edit* Well, I'm yet again at the point where I REALLY didn't want to spend this much, HOWEVER, I think in the long run it'll be beneficial. I think this is the board I'm going to get. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157359

Unless someone knows of one better for the same-ish price or cheaper? I found a couple that would be sweet. Like this one http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131336 but I could only find a used on on Ebay. Don't really feel like paying $100 for a used board when there's no telling what they've done with it. Especially when I could just put that $100 towards a newer type board/parts. (I'm not doing that. lol)
 
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