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MasterDell

MasterDell

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Hey guys! Im wondering which motherboard would be best for me. I am 99% sure I will not be OCing. I am not looking for a mobo that does not have the potential to overclock though. I just want a very reliable board. My budget is about $220 for the mobo. The motherboards I have in mind:
ASUS SABERTOOTH z97 MARK I
ASUS z97-A
ASUS MAXIMUS VII HERO
ASUS Z97-PRO

Thanks in advance for all your help! :D
 
Solution
JackNaylorPE
There is a current problem with the Asus Boards at the moment. It affects all the Z87 boards, and we must assume the Z97 also. It has to do with a BIOS Clock Freeze; the porblem has been identified as an RTC Stop error and reportedly addressed on some boards but not yet on any RoG Boards.

Sabertooth - http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?35490-Sabertooth-Z87-Bios-Clock-Issue
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?45079-BIOS-Time-Clock-not-Keeping-Correct-Time-or-Date

Hero - http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?33895-Hero-Time-Clock-Problem

The "Not Fix" - http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?36676-Frozen-Time-Clock-in-UEFI-The-Fix

It's affected 3 builds I have done including my own personal box. At this point...
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JackNaylorPE

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There is a current problem with the Asus Boards at the moment. It affects all the Z87 boards, and we must assume the Z97 also. It has to do with a BIOS Clock Freeze; the porblem has been identified as an RTC Stop error and reportedly addressed on some boards but not yet on any RoG Boards.

Sabertooth - http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?35490-Sabertooth-Z87-Bios-Clock-Issue
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?45079-BIOS-Time-Clock-not-Keeping-Correct-Time-or-Date

Hero - http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?33895-Hero-Time-Clock-Problem

The "Not Fix" - http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?36676-Frozen-Time-Clock-in-UEFI-The-Fix

It's affected 3 builds I have done including my own personal box. At this point, until a verified fix is available for these, I have put off building any Asus based builds. I'm pretty confident it will be nailed down eventually but it can have some nasty side effects.

Backups - file dates are screwed up so it doesn't know which file is newer.
Updates - The OS on my personal system is borked as downloads had file dates newer than the dates on my system.

Suggestions:

1. Hold off building until the problem is resolved. The issue has been "known" to Asus for almost a year ... can't predict when there will be a wholesale fix.

2. Use something else. In the last year where I would normally have used the Hero, I have been using the MSI GD55 and the for the Z97-A, been using the MSI G45. Made the switch before becoming aware of above the referenced issue. If you look at the feature list side by side, the GD65 and Hero are a virtual match up and down the entire list.... Clock problem aside, the Hero is a great board, but it was a great $160 board not a great $200 board. The MSI has great componentry, great OC ability, solid reliability and is $40 cheaper. I like the Asus UEFI much better but not enough to spend an extra $40.

Now be aware, I am not suggesting that MSI is better than Asus..... most of my builds are Asus based . But liek PSU's and anything else, many peeps assume that because a vendor makes a very good thing, every thing they make is in the same class..... It isn't. Corsair makes great PSUs (HX series) / Corsair makes crappy PSUs (CX). Same thing here..... Asus had a bug escape thru QA .... that doesn't mean, that's SOP for them.

Same with MSI..... they had made a huge push starting with Z77 to gain market share and they have done so by offering quality products in this market niche and, I have to assume based upon the pricing and components used, are not making large margins on each unit sold. I have less faith in the Gaming 5, 7 and 9 boards as I'm seeing commonality in user reports of similar problems related to PCI-E slots, Audio and WiFi. Is this newbie error, easily resolved "birthing pains" in a new line, or a sign of a significant problem I can't say.

So..... if you are interested in one of the following boards, the fix has reportedly been released:

Model Name BIOS ECN NO.
Z87-A 2005 EN-0204103
Z87-C 2004 EN-0204123
Z87-PRO 2005 EN-0204140
Z87-PLUS 2004 EN-0204149
Z87-EXPERT 2004 EN-0204089
Z87-DELUXE 2004 EN-0204139
Z87-DELUXE-QUAD 2004 EN-0204143
Z87-DELUXE-DUAL 2004 EN-0204141
GRYPHON-Z87 2004 EN-0204171
VANGUARD-B85 2004 EN-0204173

Now word as yet on the Sabertooth and RoG Line nor any word of the issue with regard to Z97
 
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Solution
JackNaylorPE

JackNaylorPE

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Did you look at any of the links ? The BIOS Clock Freezes. Look at the main page in your BIOS and you should see system time.... the battery keeps it going even with PSU off. If you look at it you might see say 17:35:19 (5:35 pm) and you can watch the seconds count off from 19, to 20, to 21 .... it's a clock. When you get hit with the bug, if you look at it on June 21 at 5:35 PM you might see (as I did) June 19 10:19:27 .... and 5 seconds later it still says 10:19:27 and an hour later it still says 10:19:27.

Various triggers have been put forth as a hypothesis, but none proven so far. After applying the purported "fix", I stopped checking. So one day when I went to open a recent file, it had scrolled outta the "most recent files" list in the program so I went looking and in "File Open" dialog sorted by date....every file was more than 2 weeks old, including ones I edited day before..... this drive is used as a file server for my office and all the financial records, backups etc and Windows Updates were all borked.

Sometimes I'd see it after loading a BIOS profile.... sometimes when saving profiles, sometimes when saving BIOS settings to USB, sometimes when running a stress test and ..... after stopping to ever do any of that ..... sometimes when running at stock for no reason that I can determine.

Some users dismissed it by configuring Windows to synch the windows time right after booting and then every half hour thereafter. I saw that as comparable to hiring a maid to mop the floors in ya house all day long instead of fixing the leaking roof :).

Sometimes when this happens your BIOS is completely frozen, the mouse arrow won't move, KB entries have no effect.

The temporary solution is as follows:

Frozen Time Clock in UEFI - The Fix

Is your motherboard suffering from the malady of a frozen time clock in UEFI?

If so try the following:

1) Reflash the latest UEFI, using EZ Flash 2 or USB BIOS flashback.

2) When the system POSTs, enter UEFI. Once in UEFI power down the motherboard. Keep the PSU attached and "on". Only the motherboard is powered off and in "standby". You will see the MB standby lights on (boards with start buttons onboard will be lit). Standby does not mean the board is actually running, standby means the board has power, but you have not pressed the power button to turn it on. Make sure the board is off before you go to the next step in this list. You will know if it is off because if you leave it for 5 seconds it should not POST~BOOT - this means it is in standby.

3) Clear CMOS (Clear RTC) for 10 seconds. This will clear the Management Engine.

4) Power up the system, enter UEFI, set the clock and then save and exit.

5) Update MEI driver to Version 9.5.14.1724 in the OS.
Click to expand...

After doing once, you can skip 5 ... I estimate that I have done it about 50 - 60 times in the last 10 months. Sometimes it goes 2 weeks w/ no problems, sometimes it goes just hours. Worse was 3 in one day.
 
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JackNaylorPE

JackNaylorPE

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I glad you were not affected but the dozen threads on RoG Forums and all over the web, as well as Asus' official acknowledgement of the issue attest to the stark reality of its existence.

Asus Official Response No. 1 which turned out to be temporary is quoted above

Asus Official Response No. 2:

UEFI builds 2*** released or will be up shortly on the support pages - fix list states RTC stop issue cured:

Model Name BIOS ECN NO.
Z87-A 2005 EN-0204103
Z87-C 2004 EN-0204123
Z87-PRO 2005 EN-0204140
Z87-PLUS 2004 EN-0204149
Z87-EXPERT 2004 EN-0204089
Z87-DELUXE 2004 EN-0204139
Z87-DELUXE-QUAD 2004 EN-0204143
Z87-DELUXE-DUAL 2004 EN-0204141
GRYPHON-Z87 2004 EN-0204171
VANGUARD-B85 2004 EN-0204173

ROG boards to follow.
Click to expand...

http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?36676-Frozen-Time-Clock-in-UEFI-The-Fix
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?35490-Sabertooth-Z87-Bios-Clock-Issue
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?48517-Hero-VII-time-keeping
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?33895-Hero-Time-Clock-Problem
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?47956-General-issues-with-the-Maximus-Vi-Formula
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?45079-BIOS-Time-Clock-not-Keeping-Correct-Time-or-Date
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-2119454/asus-z87-bios-clock-freeze.html
http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?id=20140426003537634&board_id=1&model=Z87-PRO&page=1&SLanguage=en-us
http://www.overclock.net/t/1460576/asus-z87-frozen-real-time-clock-bug/20
http://www.overclock.net/t/1460576/asus-z87-frozen-real-time-clock-bug

I was lucky too .... Hurricane Sandy took my GM vehicle before the recall problem killed me, but simply escaping that fate doesn't make me wanna rush out and replace it with another one until I know that the problem is fixed. :)

I have 6 Asus Boards here in the house at this point, the only Z87 board is affected. .... did about 6 other builds using Z87 Asus MoBos before I switched to MSI in the $125 - $200 price range. Both Hero Boards are affected, the Z87-A user has reported noticing it twice but not recently.... the others haven't heard from.


 
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MasterDell

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Wow thank you very much for all your help. I gotta decide if I want Asus or MSi now.. Should be just great. Thank you again I really appreciate it! :D
 
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JackNaylorPE

JackNaylorPE

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I use both..... Asus makes fine boards in the $125 - $200 range but they are just $40 more than equivalent boards from MSI. Above that price range, I'm all Asus and I have about a dozen kids with pocket fulls of "graduation money" all up my tail about doing new builds. I'm hoping we see a fix before the new Asus Maximus VII Formula breaks as that's the board all the college kids want. Been tellin' them they gonna need a job tho before they water cool them. :)
 
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feelingtheblanks

feelingtheblanks

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Let's dive into these motherboards then.

I didn't have a chance to see the MSI z97s sli with my own eyes though. And it's not fair to compare this board with other two since this board is an entry level board while others are relatively higher end.

So I'll just compare mpower and sabertooth.

Both have similar features. More than enough usb3 and sata 3 ports. One difference Mpower has an m.2 slot while sabertooth having a sata-express port. I personally think that sata-express is born dead. That cable reminds me the IDE days. You don't need to be a tech expert to see that it will be a fail. M.2 slot, however, has the same performance and technology but with a smaller size and imo it is the real deal.

Audio: Mpower is better here. Both have Realtek's alc1150 codec though, also emi shielding, pcb seperation, 600ohm amplifiers etc... but MSI use top notch nichicon caps this time around that are the exact same ones used on the high end audio grade equipment.

VRM: Mpower is also better here.

Sabertooth has digitally controlled 8 true phases pwm. 8x lfpak mosfets from nxp and 8x of some generic alloy inductors (i'm not sure about the exact rating of those but i'm sure they are not above 40amps). And also 10k hours rated top notch solid polymer caps

Mpower, on the other hand, has digitally controlled 6 true phases doubled to 12 with doubler drivers. 12x of on-semi powerpak mosfets which are more efficient than the lfpaks that sabertooth has and 12 of 60 amps ferrite inductors. Also some custom made tantalum filled poscaps by panasonic. These are highly conductive solid polymer caps can work up to 125C and avarage lifespan around 200k hours @ 85C.

Mpower is a really great overclocker and it also proved itself recently. MSI team has won the water/air cooled cpu overclocking at Intel's OC event at Computex this year with Mpower MAX (it's pretty much the same board with wi-fi support) and get the biggest prize.

Sabertooth is also a good board. But it pretty much has some gimmicky stuff like TUF brand and badass looking thermal armor. While they using some generic, mid-range components on the board. If you really want an Asus board, I'd recommend checking out the ROG series (not the rog ranger though).

Hope this is helpful.
 
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JackNaylorPE

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1. The M Power is a very special board .... very well reviewed. Z87 version below and the reference further down.

http://archive.benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1154&Itemid=69&limit=1&limitstart=11

I have not used it tho....at $215, I'm thinking why not get the Maximus Formula.


2. The MSI Z97S is another new board I know nothing about..... again at that price range, I'm thinking G45 or GD65 which again were very well reviewed and I have used both Z87 versions tho.....liked them a lot.


3. The Sabertooth is iconic .... it blew me away when it was first introduced .... thermal armor does work despite the critics, can't argue with numbers..... hardened MIL spec components, yeah I'm impressed, a MoBo good for some serious abuse :) .... and has gotten better with each new version..... OTOH, it hasn't been able to maintain the impact it once had..... that doesn't take anything away from how good it is (aside from the clock thing) but let's just say that the competition has turned more heads since Haswell. For example:

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/msi_z87_gd65_gaming/12.htm

MSI has been using components that meet or exceed MIL-STD-810G for some time as part of its Military Class build philosophy. Parts such as Super Ferrite Chokes that run at up to 35 degree Celsius lower temperatures, have a 30% higher current handling capacity, and a 20% improvement in power efficiency; Tantalum filled Hi-C Caps that are are up to 93% efficient; and "Dark Capacitors" that feature Lower ESR and a ten-year lifespan all tied into a PCB with improved temperature and humidity protections as part of the "Military Essentials" package......In the end MSI's Z87-GD65 is a board that comes with an expansive feature set that includes all your basics and the extras that set them apart such as the V-Check points, upper end audio, Dual BIOS ROMs, KIller Network package, Military Class IV package, and a three-year warranty. Couple that with good looks that carry the dragon theme through the board, and you have a winning combination at $189.
Click to expand...

http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/msi_z87_gd65_gaming_review/15

Now and again a motherboard appears that is so obviously brilliant, and so affordable, that we wonder if anything will be able to top it. For a while that crown was held by the ASUS Sabertooth, both in X58 and then P67 variants. Then MSI stole the crown with the Z77 MPower. Looking at the Z87 GD65 Gaming we think it's going to take something extraordinary to top it, such is the perfect storm of price, performance, features and looks.

The switch to Military Class 4 has given us an extremely ready overclocker too. You're always thermally limited when overclocking and the i7-4770K is one of the most demanding around. Considering the amount of cooling we're using we think that although the GD65 is capable of bringing 5GHz from our i7-4770K you'd need a proper water loop to make the most of it.

Performance is outstanding. The stock results were a particular highlight. We know a lot of people still just like to put their CPU in and go, without overclocking it first. Despite how easy it is these days we know that the fear factor still exists. So you'll be glad to know that the MSI Z87 GD65 Gaming really rocks hard even at stock settings. Naturally the overclocking is blistering too, with some OC3D records broken.

MSI have laid the gauntlet down to all the other manufacturers. Gorgeous to look at, blistering performance and all at a very affordable price, the MSI Z87 GD65 Gaming is not only the new benchmark for Z87 motherboards, but probably for all motherboards.
Click to expand...
 
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MasterDell

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Thanks for the info :) I really don't know which board I should get right now. I mentioned the lower end z97 not to compare it to the other boards but to see if buying that board for now until ASUS gets it's ducks in a line. The M power does look like an influential choice however. But like I stated, although the M power is a great OCer it doesn't really matter to me since I'm probably not going to OC.
 
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MasterDell

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Thanks again for all of the help Jack! :) I have one very large problem with the GD65.. It has red. I really do not like red and I just bought a Phantom 410 so I would be able to see it.. :( Sounds ridiculous QQing about looks I know but it does matter to me. I am OKAY with a little red. I would get the Formula. My only problem is that it is $315 in the great white north xD:http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132038&cm_re=maximus_formula-_-13-132-038-_-Product

Any thoughts on ASrock boards?
 
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feelingtheblanks

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If you are not going to OC, then a lower end board would do the trick.

Like I said I haven't seen msi z97s-sli plus yet, but looks like it doesn't have a competitive onboard audio solution like other boards on the market. Just an older realtek alc892 without any emi shielding or pcb seperation. If you care about the audio and you don't have a plan to get a sound card I wouldn't recommend this board. It's still an ok solution though, but not for a guy who cares about the sound. Other than that this looks like a pretty decent board.

If you also want a decent audio solution with good features, I'd suggest MSI z97 Gaming 5 or Gigabyte z97x- Gaming 5.

Update: Well if you don't like the red scheme then this suggestioms are obsolete lol.

Also ASRock is decent too.

How about some black orange with Gigabyte z97x-ud3h? :p Very good board as well.

I really wouldn't recommend an expensive board unless you want to push some overclocking. But if you really want to get a higher end board then get the MPower MAX AC. It also has the wi-fi support, great overall features and rock-solid design.
 
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MasterDell

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If the on board audio is crap I would definitely get a nice sound card.
Update: Max AC is $280 in Canada. How about this one?

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130766&cm_re=mpower-_-13-130-766-_-Product
 
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JackNaylorPE

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damn....why didn't ya say so from the getgo ....cuda skipped all the techie stuff :)

How bout this then

MPower w/ 780 Lightning

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127754

BTW.... ‧MSI Z97 XPOWER AC Motherboard was Winner of Best Choice Award and Computex 2014

OK....new plan....M97 MPower and TWO 780 Lightnings !!!!!!

THG had an article about MSi showing the 780 Ti Lightning at Computex after saying after CES that it would not be released ???/ So why show it 6 months later ? Ya wuda thot they changed their plans nut not a word.

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/38314/msi-gtx-780-ti-lighting-the-gpu-you-can-t-buy/index.html

 
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MasterDell

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Hahaha how powerful would a lightning rig be compared to an EVGA 780 with the MPOWER board.
 
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feelingtheblanks

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It's not that crap. Just between mediocre and ok-ish. You can get a lot better performance by paying tad more.

Your build seems good. All these boards we suggest here are quality boards. Also you might want to consider ASRock z97 Extreme 6, MSI z97 Gaming 7 and Gigabyte Z97x-Gaming 7.

If you want a really badass onboard audio solution then there is Gigabyte Z97X-Gaming g.1. It has a quad core Creative sound core 3D audio processor and studio grade nichicon caps. Other onboard solutions are not comparable with this tbh. This board also has a wi-fi version if you want that feature as well.

 
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JackNaylorPE

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See post #8 again ..... out of the Big 4 (Asus, Giga, MSI, EVGA) , I put EVGA SC at the bottom.....as do most reviewers

http://uk.hardware.info/reviews/4639/10/nvidia-geforce-gtx-780-asus-vs-evga-vs-inno3d-vs-msi-conclusion

All four manufacturers - ASUS, EVGA, Inno3D and MSI - made something special out of their GeForce GTX 780. The card that impressed us the most, however, was the ASUS GTX780-DC2OC-3GD5. The new cooler works like charm, and its performance is clearly reflected by the test results. The card also manages to stay very quiet and offers the best overclocking potential thanks to the new cooler. ASUS earns the Gold Award for its card.

We can't leave out the card from MSI. While it's slightly less overclocked and has less overall overclocking potential than the cards from Inno3D and EVGA, it's extremely quiet under load, the most silent of them all. It's also significantly cheaper than the other three, so if you're not planning on extreme overclocking, this MSI card is the best option.

An honorable mention goes to the Inno3D card. Out of the box it's the fastest, and while you can yourself get the other cards to the same level of performance, it's nice to have it guaranteed if you're not an experienced overclocker.

The EVGA ACX Superclocked also isn't a bad card. The only problem is that about the same amount of money will net you the ASUS card, a card which is superior in terms of cooling, noise and overclocking potential. EVGA will have to drop its prices to MSI levels to keep its card interesting.
Click to expand...

MSI retooled their 780 after that review upping is clock from 902 to 954 MHz .... great performance, great cooler, very quiet .... only knock it has against the Asus is the MSI uses Elpida memory, Asus uses Samsung.

But the Lightning, like the EVGA Classy is somethin special....well usually...... the Lightning, unfortunately for the 780, used Elpida also ..... but who cares ..... it's yellow ! :0

For the 780's, I have had the best luck with Asus .... been getting 25% on GPU and 20% on memory.... MSI get same on GPU, less on memory.

For the 780 Ti's tho, MSI used Hynix memory and this card stands tall above the competition on air. Only on water would I consider the Asus as it's gotta crappy clock outta the box.
 
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Y

Y0GI

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There is a lot of great technical information in this thread based on facts, not just opinions. For that reason I am subscribing so that I can keep up with any additional info that is posted.

Thank you, Jack and Feelingtheblanks, for all of your efforts on this very informative thread!

Yogi
 
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