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What's important to look at besides GHz?

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July 12, 2014 9:36:07 PM

So I'm looking at spending about $1000ish on building on a computer and I'm trying to decide what CPU to buy. I'm sure there are some decent AMD CPUs but I just perfer Intel for some reason. By the way, this computer will be used pretty much for gaming and stuff like that, not things such as video editing, etc. So I figured looking at a benchmark site (http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php) would help me make a decision. I don't have much knowledge about CPUs and this is the first computer that I will be building. So could someone explain what exactly "cores" are and what it means to have multiple cores. I know the number of cores is important and so is the GHz but when I was looking at this website it seems that certain processors with lower GHz outperform processors with more GHz. E.G. Intel Xeon E5-2697 v2 @ 2.70GHz vs. Intel Core i5-4690K @ 3.50GHz. Now I don't plan on buying the first one, this is sort of an extreme example, and I know there is a large difference between the number of cores but overall I just want to understand what else I should look at besides GHz and is the number of cores more important than GHz (because that's the way it seems)?

Any help is appreciated.

Just finished doing some more reading on the subject and people have been talking about the "architecture" of the processor. If someone could explain what exactly that means as well I would greatly appreciate it.

Been looking at more processors and I've noticed something called an intergrated graphics core. I understand that this is basically like a built in graphics card but can I still get a dedicated graphics card to put in my computer as well?

More about : important ghz

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July 12, 2014 10:37:11 PM

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By the way, this computer will be used pretty much for gaming and stuff like that, not things such as video editing

Then go with Core i5. The hyperthreading will be unnoticeable in games.

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So could someone explain what exactly "cores" are and what it means to have multiple cores

A core is a unit of processing inside a chip. Every core can handle a task independently. More cores mean more tasks being handled at the same time.

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I know the number of cores is important and so is the GHz but when I was looking at this website it seems that certain processors with lower GHz outperform processors with more GHz

This is because architecture. As an example: AMD have less money and less engineers than Intel, this is why their design is less efficient than Intel. Intel can, with their tech, process more things at the same clock speed.

Quote:
just want to understand what else I should look at besides GHz and is the number of cores more important than GHz

Is easy. Videogames at this current generation uses 1-2 cores mainly. 3 or 4 at the best scenario, and this is rare. This mean, for gaming you will be better suited with a processor that have faster and stronger single cores, than a processor with lots of cores that perform poorly. This is why the Intel Core i5 is really popular among gamers. They get four cores that have great speed at relatively low clocks and consumptions.

Quote:
Just finished doing some more reading on the subject and people have been talking about the "architecture" of the processor. If someone could explain what exactly that means as well I would greatly appreciate it

Architecture is like the blueprints of the processor, its structure design, how it works, how it performs, how it handles everything. The better the architecture, the better the processor can perform a task with less power and less clock.

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Been looking at more processors and I've noticed something called an intergrated graphics core. I understand that this is basically like a built in graphics card but can I still get a dedicated graphics card to put in my computer as well

Those are little "graphic cards" inside the processor, and are aimed to people who doesn't want to game. They are really underpowered. Always look for dedicated cards.

This is a little suggestion for a good system that will endure:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4690K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($229.99 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z97-HD3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($98.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Kingston Blu 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1333 Memory ($138.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: MSI GeForce GTX 760 2GB Video Card ($219.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $687.96
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
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July 12, 2014 10:40:32 PM

CPU's have more than one actual physical processing unit. This is called parallel processing. Imagine a car engine; 4, 6 or 8 cylinders. Then there is hyperthreading (intel) this is where more than one programing thread can be run through one core (cylinder). So a 4 core 8 thread processor is like a 4 cylinder engine with twin carburetors on each cylinder(or a butterfly valve head system like a yamaha VMax).
The revs of the engine is the frequency. (ghrtz) It is the speed at which every transistor changes state per second. The instructions per clock cycle (IPC) is how many programming instructions are carried out on the code as it goes through the chip per 1 revolution. The higher this number is the more efficient the chip will be. Cpu's of variying sizes and ages will have different speeds and parameters.
The best gauge of a chips computation power is cpumark. Look at its score, then look at its power usage and price.
For general computing then look at its single thread score (most small programs can only use 1 lane through a cpu). This is also still important for games. Few can use more than four.
For longevitycheck out its power draw (obviously a work station motherboard will have a much greater capacity than a normal pc), but power use is an indicator to how long it will last.
The igp is indeed a graphics card built on the cpu. You do not have to use it, tho A.M.D. have made some headway enabling it to help an added graphics card.
This is my understanding of things and hope it helps, even if I am in error here or there.
It IS a very big subject.
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July 12, 2014 10:43:52 PM

Oh boy... that's a lot of questions. I'll try my best to address them all.


anthonio5636 said:
So I'm looking at spending about $1000ish on building on a computer and I'm trying to decide what CPU to buy.

You can go with AMD or Intel. The budget is the deciding factor. The majority of games do not use more than two cores so there's no reason to buy a CPU with more cores if you won't end up using them.

The ideal candidate right now is an Intel Core i5-4690 or Intel Core i5-4690K (if overclocking). On the AMD side, it will be FX-6300, FX-8320, or FX-8350. But AMD has dropped the FX series to work on their APU series so there will be no direct upgrades if you go that route.


anthonio5636 said:
So I figured looking at a benchmark site (http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php) would help me make a decision.

Synthetic benchmarks won't help you in a real-world case scenario.


anthonio5636 said:
So could someone explain what exactly "cores" are and what it means to have multiple cores.

This will start off as a tangent to your question but play along. You are the CEO of a company that develops video games. Your company has two facilities in different regions. Let's call those facilities West One and East One. In West One, you have four employees (yourself not included). In East One, you have eight employees (yourself not included).

One day, for whatever reason, you told both facilities to create the same game. You gave them the specifications for the game and the facilities create the game. Assuming the employees in West One and East One are all competent equally, then East One will finish the job faster because they have four extra personnel.

Now, back to the CPU. If the CPU is you (the CEO), and the cores are workers, then each core does one task. More cores mean that you can perform multiple tasks simultaneously.


anthonio5636 said:
I know the number of cores is important and so is the GHz but when I was looking at this website it seems that certain processors with lower GHz outperform processors with more GHz. E.G. Intel Xeon E5-2697 v2 @ 2.70GHz vs. Intel Core i5-4690K @ 3.50GHz.

Let's go back to my scenario above. If West One completes the task close to the time East One finishes the same task, then the extra four personnel in East One is doing a whole lot of nothing. Either that or West One's employees are more efficient and are better than East One. So in that regard, having more personnel (or cores) didn't help much. This is true in games that use upwards of two cores. in fact, many games do not use more than a few cores.

GHz is actually not important. At the very least, it's not conclusive. So if a CPU runs at 3.0 GHz and another CPU runs at 1.50 GHz, you would assume the CPU running at 3.0 GHz to be faster, right? That is not true. Let's say the CPU running at 3.0 GHz performs one task. The CPU running at 1.50 GHz performs two tasks. In this case, both CPUs are essentially identical. The first CPU is twice as fast, but it completes tasks in half the time. The terminology for this is Instructions per Cycle or IPC for short.

One thing I did not mention is Hyper-Threading. This is when one core performs two tasks at once. It's like multi-tasking for a single person. But of course, this is less efficient than having another physical body.



anthonio5636 said:
Just finished doing some more reading on the subject and people have been talking about the "architecture" of the processor. If someone could explain what exactly that means as well I would greatly appreciate it.

A computer architecture is a list of instruction sets. How the CPU performs all the calculations. It's not like a human brain that can learn new things. Everything it has to do is programmed into it.


anthonio5636 said:
Been looking at more processors and I've noticed something called an intergrated graphics core. I understand that this is basically like a built in graphics card but can I still get a dedicated graphics card to put in my computer as well?

Yes.


On a side note, if your primary goal is just gaming, looking into this much depth on CPU is not very useful. It doesn't hurt to know more about them, but CPUs don't do much in most games. There are CPU-intensive games where having a fast CPU matters, but most of the time, the GPU will be doing the work. You want to make sure that the CPU is not bottlenecking the GPU and vice-versa.

Bottlenecking is when something is restricting another thing from performing at full potential. So if the CPU is too slow to provide data to the graphics card, then the graphics card is under-performing because it is constantly waiting on the CPU.
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July 12, 2014 11:05:31 PM

The majority of games do not use more than two cores.
Hmmmm. .
Something wrong with that statement. Unless your in 2009.
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July 12, 2014 11:11:01 PM

tea urchin said:
The majority of games do not use more than two cores.
Hmmmm. .
Something wrong with that statement. Unless your in 2009.

Or you are just not noticing all the indie games that are created. The majority of games do not. That doesn't mean "all games". And only a few many games use more than four cores. You want to only talk about the big titles out there?
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July 12, 2014 11:14:09 PM

ksham said:
tea urchin said:
The majority of games do not use more than two cores.
Hmmmm. .
Something wrong with that statement. Unless your in 2009.

Or you are just not noticing all the indie games that are created. The majority of games do not. That doesn't mean "all games". And only a few many games use more than four cores. You want to only talk about the big titles out there?


So the Indie games devs are the reason for AMD to still not shining :lol: 
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July 12, 2014 11:17:42 PM

PandaBear270 said:
So the Indie games devs are the reason for AMD to still not shining :lol: 

You want me to have a talk with all game developers about that? In terms of marketing, it makes sense. It depends on the game. If it doesn't need more than two cores, then it's able to be played on more computers. Right?

That doesn't mean that if a game supports four cores, you can't play it on a dual-core processor.
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July 12, 2014 11:28:15 PM

Almost any game will run on a good dual core. I do doubt however most games are threaded for only two .Your argument is counter productive. If a game will thread to four it does not mean it will not work on two, but a 2 thread max would limit the game on anything bigger so by the sales figure quotient you use you just invalidated your own argument. I now get the impression you are making it up as you go along,sir.
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July 12, 2014 11:31:26 PM

The thing is Intel needs to move from the Quad-core mentality and start producing i5 with six cores for the mainstream gaming community. Why? Because that would force the developers to make threaded games. A threaded game means that you can add more expensive things, like realistic physics, particles, etc...
Oh wait, this is being done by the GPU actually. Nevermind.
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July 12, 2014 11:39:43 PM

tea urchin said:
Almost any game will run on a good dual core. I do doubt however most games are threaded for only two .Your argument is counter productive. If a game will thread to four it does not mean it will not work on two, but a 2 thread max would limit the game on anything bigger so by the sales figure quotient you use you just invalidated your own argument. I now get the impression you are making it up as you go along,sir.

Then go and prove me wrong. In the same light, your comments are not productive either as you are just posting down your opinions with no actual data sample.

Most games are not heavily threaded. You actually need to program it for it to be threaded that way. And that gets trickier than it sounds. Most game engines optimize it and most games do NOT perform any better between a quad-core vs a dual-core. I don't want to hijack someone else's thread to explain that to you.
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July 12, 2014 11:44:25 PM

Don't worry and go ahead, the OP is actually hungry for knowledge on CPUs internals.
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July 12, 2014 11:52:01 PM

It has less to do with CPU internals and more to do with game programming. You can run BF3 or BF4 with a dual-core or quad-core (with or without hyper-threading) and they will perform almost identical (within some margin of error). If it used more then two cores simultaneously, you would get better performance on the quad-core, but you really don't because the games do not saturate the usage of all four cores.

Although, moot point, you cannot run BF3 or BF4 in single core mode unless it's a single core with hyper-threading. So there are boundary marks where the game either functions and sweet spot on where you don't gain much (if any) performance by adding in additional cores. Most of the things in-game is single threaded.

More cores may help if you want to run other programs while gaming. But the game itself won't benefit greatly from it.
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July 12, 2014 11:57:57 PM

Intel do not have a 'quad core mentality'. They already make six and 8 core cpu's.
They have a 'zone' mentality. They make stuff for tasks demanded by market needs.
The average game has to be playable on an i3 because this is the most common pc in the world.
So Dev's dont make games that need more than an i3. The average pc user buys one from pc world.
Consoles have to come in at a price so cheap its hardly worth it.
The status of the gaming industry is linked to what hardware is affordable in the home,already in the home or multi purposed . That is not hi end pc's.
The tech will improve when the world has the money.
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July 12, 2014 11:58:55 PM

Yes, the people always forget there are more things running in the background, not just the game.
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July 13, 2014 12:14:01 AM

But 'Most games' are not two thread max. You do not have to explain that to me, I have seen dozens of benchmarks showing the diff twixt 2 cores and four. I would be very impressed for you to show me a bench mark from BF4 that shows a twin core two threaded cpu like a fast pentium G dual core keeping up (within a margin described by you as almost no difference) with,say , an i7.
The extra bulk of transistors obviously should not make any impact by your argument so feel free to pull up some benchmarks.
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July 13, 2014 12:33:44 AM

tea urchin said:
But 'Most games' are not two thread max. You do not have to explain that to me, I have seen dozens of benchmarks showing the diff twixt 2 cores and four. I would be very impressed for you to show me a bench mark from BF4 that shows a twin core two threaded cpu like a fast pentium G dual core keeping up (within a margin described by you as almost no difference) with,say , an i7.
The extra bulk of transistors obviously should not make any impact by your argument so feel free to pull up some benchmarks.


Here you go, the 3258 with just 2 cores, no HT keeping up with an i5 4690k even coming quite close with stock clocks.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pentium-g3258-overc...
it didnt paste <.<
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July 13, 2014 12:40:29 AM

No link
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July 13, 2014 12:46:01 AM

To add, i dont think its has much to do with what gets bought, but with what the game companies are willing to do with thier engines, they dont want to take the time and money to optimize for more cores, i hope the new gen consoles help change that view. Not utilizing available resources is just stupid for the consumer and the devloper.
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July 13, 2014 12:53:37 AM

LookItsRain said:
Not utilizing available resources is just stupid for the consumer and the devloper.


+1

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July 13, 2014 5:06:34 PM

I was actually impressed with those figures until I analysed the right up in my head and concluded that a lot of scaling was going on, which would result in the lower game play experience and stuttering described 'here'.
http://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performance-analyses/battle...

Apparently. BF4 is threaded for 3 cores, not 2 ..Which would be perfect for a quad to run other stuff on the 4th. I do not think the figures posted in toms right up are representative of 60 player pvp maps but I may be wrong.
What ever the outcome it seems this title is not limited to two threads which is what I said about most new games to start with.

To give an example, I have been playing STO for two years on an E6600 conroe.
It was an experience alright, but having moved to a 4430 the quality of the game has gone through the roof.
Its like night and day. The game used 85% of an E6600, but uses 45% of the i5 haswell. This is near double the cpu power. The scallng has changed the game beyond comparison quality wise.
To try and compare the experiences using frame rates is just nonsense.
It was 'do-able' on the old c2d, but its a lesson in quality on an i5.
This should be taken into consideration when somebody is getting over excited about an unlocked duo.
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July 13, 2014 5:21:05 PM

tea urchin said:
I was actually impressed with those figures until I analysed the right up in my head and concluded that a lot of scaling was going on, which would result in the lower game play experience and stuttering described 'here'.
http://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performance-analyses/battle...

Apparently. BF4 is threaded for 3 cores, not 2 ..Which would be perfect for a quad to run other stuff on the 4th. I do not think the figures posted in toms right up are representative of 60 player pvp maps but I may be wrong.
What ever the outcome it seems this title is not limited to two threads which is what I said about most new games to start with.


The stuttering does not surprise with with such an old CPU, that old quad is having its cores maxed which means it will stutter and suffer. Paird with a 690 that old cpu is being downright destroyed by the CPU workload. I dont think the newer cpu would have those issues, but im no expert and cant find how toms benchmarks bf4 in the short time i looked.

The compairsons are to far streched, for what you list, an e6600 is much slower than a dual core haswell pentium. There is an 8 year diffrence between an e6600 and a haswell i5. A modern dual core, like the cheap 3258, will provide good frame rates, even on a ludicris gpu, have a lower class gpu and the bottleneck wont really exist.
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July 13, 2014 5:34:45 PM

LookItsRain said:
tea urchin said:
I was actually impressed with those figures until I analysed the right up in my head and concluded that a lot of scaling was going on, which would result in the lower game play experience and stuttering described 'here'.
http://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performance-analyses/battle...

Apparently. BF4 is threaded for 3 cores, not 2 ..Which would be perfect for a quad to run other stuff on the 4th. I do not think the figures posted in toms right up are representative of 60 player pvp maps but I may be wrong.
What ever the outcome it seems this title is not limited to two threads which is what I said about most new games to start with.


The stuttering does not surprise with with such an old CPU, that old quad is having its cores maxed which means it will stutter and suffer. Paird with a 690 that old cpu is being downright destroyed by the CPU workload. I dont think the newer cpu would have those issues, but im no expert and cant find how toms benchmarks bf4 in the short time i looked.

The compairsons are to far streched, for what you list, an e6600 is much slower than a dual core haswell pentium. There is an 8 year diffrence between an e6600 and a haswell i5. A modern dual core, like the cheap 3258, will provide good frame rates, even on a ludicris gpu, have a lower class gpu and the bottleneck wont really exist.


The stuttering kicked in when they cut the cores to 2.

' Now we have to be honest here; those with weaker dual-core CPUs will encounter A LOT of stuttering issues with BF4. While simulating a dual-core CPU, we found BF4 unplayable due to the constant stuttering and the really low framerate (even on low details). DICE suggests an Intel i5 as a minimum requirement, so that CPU may fare better than an older dual-core CPU.'
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July 13, 2014 5:43:58 PM

tea urchin said:
LookItsRain said:
tea urchin said:
I was actually impressed with those figures until I analysed the right up in my head and concluded that a lot of scaling was going on, which would result in the lower game play experience and stuttering described 'here'.
http://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performance-analyses/battle...

Apparently. BF4 is threaded for 3 cores, not 2 ..Which would be perfect for a quad to run other stuff on the 4th. I do not think the figures posted in toms right up are representative of 60 player pvp maps but I may be wrong.
What ever the outcome it seems this title is not limited to two threads which is what I said about most new games to start with.


The stuttering does not surprise with with such an old CPU, that old quad is having its cores maxed which means it will stutter and suffer. Paird with a 690 that old cpu is being downright destroyed by the CPU workload. I dont think the newer cpu would have those issues, but im no expert and cant find how toms benchmarks bf4 in the short time i looked.

The compairsons are to far streched, for what you list, an e6600 is much slower than a dual core haswell pentium. There is an 8 year diffrence between an e6600 and a haswell i5. A modern dual core, like the cheap 3258, will provide good frame rates, even on a ludicris gpu, have a lower class gpu and the bottleneck wont really exist.


The stuttering kicked in when they cut the cores to 2.

' Now we have to be honest here; those with weaker dual-core CPUs will encounter A LOT of stuttering issues with BF4. While simulating a dual-core CPU, we found BF4 unplayable due to the constant stuttering and the really low framerate (even on low details). DICE suggests an Intel i5 as a minimum requirement, so that CPU may fare better than an older dual-core CPU.'


Yes, using a 6 year old cpu, use a recent dual core cpu and the frames will be fine.
http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core2-Quad-Q9650-vs-Intel...
http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Pentium-G2020-vs-Intel-Co...
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July 13, 2014 5:45:23 PM

LookItsRain said:
tea urchin said:
I was actually impressed with those figures until I analysed the right up in my head and concluded that a lot of scaling was going on, which would result in the lower game play experience and stuttering described 'here'.
http://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performance-analyses/battle...

Apparently. BF4 is threaded for 3 cores, not 2 ..Which would be perfect for a quad to run other stuff on the 4th. I do not think the figures posted in toms right up are representative of 60 player pvp maps but I may be wrong.
What ever the outcome it seems this title is not limited to two threads which is what I said about most new games to start with.


The stuttering does not surprise with with such an old CPU, that old quad is having its cores maxed which means it will stutter and suffer. Paird with a 690 that old cpu is being downright destroyed by the CPU workload. I dont think the newer cpu would have those issues, but im no expert and cant find how toms benchmarks bf4 in the short time i looked.

The compairsons are to far streched, for what you list, an e6600 is much slower than a dual core haswell pentium. There is an 8 year diffrence between an e6600 and a haswell i5. A modern dual core, like the cheap 3258, will provide good frame rates, even on a ludicris gpu, have a lower class gpu and the bottleneck wont really exist.


And half a Q9650 at 4.2 gig is about 75% more power than an E6600.
If it stutters on that dual core settup it obviously really needs that extra core or two to shine,
and my E6600 experience was an example of scaling.
On the haswel quad the game is using twice the resources.
Perhaps I did not make that clear.

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July 13, 2014 6:10:41 PM

To sum up.
a frames per second only analysis of games comparing core count performance is much like comparing cars at 90 miles per hour.
A honda civic will do 90 mph, but in a Bentley at 90 you could nod off to sleep on the back seat.
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July 13, 2014 8:13:15 PM

Well I appreciate the help given even though it seems to have turned into an argument or something... Nonetheless I obviously don't know much about computers so sorry about any dumb questions I may have asked.
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