Is it worth it to stack Radiators?

Ellis_D · Aug 20, 2014

I'm planning out a Water Cooling loop and I was considering stacking two Radiators with fans in between (so it would go Fan>Radiator>Fan>Radiator>Fan, all in push/pull arrangement). With the case I have, This one spot is pretty much the only space I have room to mount radiators so I wanted to cram as much in as I possibly can but I am concerned that this would negatively affect the Radiator's performance to the point of negating the positive effects of having two radiators.

Now for some background on the build, I'm basically working with single-fan 180mm radiators. There's another spot I can cram a low-profile radiator and an ultra-low-profile fan and then the spot where I can put the two other 180mm radiators. The low-profile radiator is 35mm thick and the two in the open space are going to be 45mm thick.

So will two be enough or should I go for Three? Bare in mind, aesthetics are important to me so unless the extra Radiator is highly beneficial, I'd rather forgo it and not have the bulk of it ruining the space. I'm also wanting to do overclock my i7 4790k to at least 4.6 so I am looking for the optimal balance of cooling performance.

Etorpine · Aug 20, 2014

It entirely depends on if you're gonna be running some ball busting overclocks. I personally think you're good on two, look at my specs in my signature. I have one rad, granted it's got copper plating and a bunch of fancy nice crap and it's rather large, but with it and my fans, my temps are ice cold (not literally, LOL) on a now 8Mhz overclock, I went from 4.2 to 4.5 to 5.0 now and it's not even breaking a sweat, I got my cards overclocked as well. I'd recommend getting some dust filters, two rads is more than enough man.

thequn · Aug 21, 2014

wont make a difference unless your using the integrated gpu as well it not hot enough to push your radiator assuming general optimal water cooling components.

Ellis_D · Aug 21, 2014

Well the thing about that is that is my chip seems to run hotter than most. I'm currently running at around 85C at a 4.5ghz with 1.20 vCore OC with a Corsair H80i Closed-loop cooler when testing with Prime95. I honestly have half a mind to de-lid this sucker (I can actually see TIM oozing out the side of the heatspreader and on to the PCB). Of course, it handles stock settings reasonably well so Intel wouldn't acknowledge it as defective... But you get the picture... My chip runs really hot and I'm more concerned about dropping the temps by at least 10 degrees on the current clock than doing an extreme overclock and I absolutely don't want to go with the delidding route.

I'm also planning on integrating my GPU (possibly in SLI config) into the loop when I upgrade it next year and it is going to be a single-loop config so I want to make sure I have enough surface area to cool everything down efficiently.

Etorpine · Aug 21, 2014

I wouldn't go for an integrated GPU, for several reasons. I'd buy a dedicated card with cooling fans built in, the Radeon R9 290 Tri-X or the Geforce GTX 780TI's have a LOT of bang for buck, even if it may be a lot of bucks.

Three radiators is absolute overkill though, especially for an integrated chip. I'd take the extra Rad out and buy a good card with the saved money and add another later on if your temps are higher than wanted. I'm running a higher overclock than you plan on using and my temps are golden with one rad. Two should suit you fine. Make sure you're not running into any leaks or issues with your current cooling setup, 85C on a liquid cooled setup with a mid-range overclock is very unusual. Have you cleaned it recently? Is it well vented?

Ellis_D · Aug 21, 2014

What size rads are you using by the way? the 180mm rads I'll be using only have a little bit more surface are than dual 120mm rads.

Also, my case is very well vented and I checked and double checked that my thermal paste was applied properly (I used almost an entire tube of Arctic Silver 5 applying and reapplying this stuff and I am 100% confident the problem is not in seating the CPU block)

Etorpine · Aug 21, 2014

180mm single Rad with a copper cold plate.

Ellis_D · Aug 21, 2014

I suppose it won't be too difficult to add a third radiator if two prove themselves to be insufficient.

Etorpine · Aug 21, 2014

I'm happy if I gave you the best answer, but I'm still baffled as to why you're getting such high temps on a mid-range OC. Before you go ahead with purchasing the new rad(s) make absolutely SURE everything is in proper order. Is your CPU soldiered in, is the heatsink applied right, etc?

Ellis_D · Aug 21, 2014

I'm pretty sure it's an issue with the TIM. The haswell processors don't use solder and the 4790ks were supposed to fix the TIM issues the original run of haswell ran into but the fact that it's beading out of the side of my heatspreader gives me cause to think that there's a problem with the chip. I've also noticed one of my cores (core #4 if it matters) is running about 10 degrees colder than the rest of the cores so this tells me it could also be an issue with the sensors reading the temps.

The last possible issue would be if my year-old tube of Arctic Silver started to break down. This is highly unlikely and I got similar results with the pre-applied thermal compound that came with the Intel stock cooler and my H80i.

Etorpine · Aug 21, 2014

Your best solution might be getting a new processor since you already plan on spending money, but I can understand why you might not want to do this considering it could present other needed hardware upgrades.

thequn · Aug 21, 2014

only about 5% of testers have had issues with the intel thermal paste issue its unlikely its your problem. it more likely your CPU was bin poorly in the factory, regardless artic sliver 5 takes a week to cure for optimal temps and history has shown tht delidding the processor has causes more problems then it fixed. be careful sometimes temps are reported incorrectly esp in windows 8... also i never seen a tim leak, it is hlf cermic it does not melt.

thequn · Aug 21, 2014

i thin you need to take step back also its oblius your h80 is not preforming well. that pump is not great and its likly its meny years old now.

Ellis_D · Aug 21, 2014

Believe it or not but this is the second chip I've gone through. The first one I got was BSODing under stock settings with the stock cooler while encoding videos. It's possible that the micro center I bought mine through got a bad batch but since the one I'm currently using is actually functional at its advertised specifications, I'm kinda stuck with it. The thing overclocks decently enough but the temps have been a major hurdle for me. I'm also not happy with the H80i cooler I got and it barely works better than the on-air cooler I replaced it with (Cooler Master N520).

Etorpine · Aug 21, 2014

Thequn, I'm not 100% of English is your first language (not trying to offend, if it isn't I completely understand because I'm originally from Russia and it's not mine either, I spent the first six years of my life speaking Russian and still do in-house.) but you might want to work on your spelling because I'm having a hard time understanding you when I'm skimming the post and really have to stop and read it. Not insulting your intelligence at all, just providing a tip.

Anyway, at this point you may have just had a bad run with your CPU's, because it'd be pretty terrible if you bought your new cooling setup and the difference was negligent or non-existant, and Thequn, if he can literally see the TIM leaking out, that's a big issue. He wouldn't be the first person I've heard having CPU problems like that. It's tricky though, either route could lead to an unwanted result and wasted cash.

rubix_1011 · Aug 22, 2014

Radiator stacking thread from earlier in the week: http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-2248456/radiator-sandwich-loops.html

In short, making a radiator/fan sandwich isn't very effective overall. You are better off mounting them separately to allow fresh air to each.

Also, you should read through the watercooling sticky...there are dedicated sections that help you understand loop TDP, delta-T and how to understand how many radiators you need based on your system components in the loop. It is linked in my signature below.

4Ryan6 · Aug 22, 2014

Most 180mm cooling fans are really pitiful airflow, as 180mm was a first step towards quiet case fans, so if you're even considering a single 180mm radiator or your 180 sandwich idea I recommend these cooling fans, I personally own 4 and they do the job.

Warning these are 32mm thick fans, but even on max airflow are very tolerable noise wise.

http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...duct_info&cPath=36_327_1132&products_id=26263

All this sandwich talk is making me hungry, I think I'll go get a sandwich!

Ellis_D · Aug 22, 2014

4Ryan6 :

Those fans came stock with my Silverstone FT01 case actually but I'm swapping them out for these
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_327_1132&products_id=40500.

I have one already and I'm very impressed with it since it's managing more air flow with almost the same static pressure, maintaining reasonable noise levels, and comes in a 20mm form factor. My biggest complaint is the brightness of the LEDs.

I fully understand 180mm is less than ideal for radiators but because of the limitations of my case, it's what I have to work with. I'm really trying to make the best of a bad situation.

rubix_1011 · Aug 22, 2014

Might be able to make a fan adapter that would allow you to mount a smaller fan. If you drill the mount holes correctly, you can use normal fan mounting screws for both the adapter and the fan to the adapter. You can use some fiber board or most plastics. Be careful with acrylic, it can crack if you stress the edges too much.

Ellis_D · Aug 22, 2014

rubix_1011 :

At that point, why not mount 4 90mm fans?

rubix_1011 · Aug 22, 2014

For what purpose? I thought this was an exercise around making a non-traditional fan and radiator size (180mm) into a more feasible one (140mm) with better offerings for both rads and fans? Am I missing something, here?

Ellis_D · Aug 22, 2014

No, it's about getting the maximum performance out of the 180mm form factor.

rubix_1011 · Aug 22, 2014

If you are set on using 180mm rads, mount the fans in Pull. With lower CFM/RPM fans, pull is typically better performing than push. If you have higher CFM/RPM, Push is generally better. Also, just because a fan is high CFM/RPM doesn't always mean it is a great fan...static pressure plays a large part in choose fans for radiators, which is why slower fans are better pulling air through a rad, rather than pushing them...their static pressure rating is often lower.

Ellis_D · Aug 22, 2014

While reading one of the articles from the previous stacking thread you linked to made a point about that as well as mentioning radiators with a lower FPI would be better optimized for this arrangement vs low pressure fans with high FPI radiators. I could theoretically use 4 smaller fans (80mm-90mm) with more than twice the static pressure of the best 180mm fans on the market. Unfortunately, the article I was reading really didn't have test results for ultra-high RPM fans with Ultra Low FPI rads so I'm kinda left speculating here.

Another option would to use something like the Alphacool NexXxos Monsta but I can't wrap my mind around the idea that a double-thick radiator would be a better option than two radiators that are sandwiched with fans in between.

rubix_1011 · Aug 22, 2014

The thick radiator would be better, by far. Surface area as well as not having a rad sandwich.

In practice, low FPI rads do benefit from high CFM fans as you're pushing larger volumes of air over the rad fins and tubes, therefore increasing your heat dissipation into ambient air much more quickly. How would you mount all those fans onto a large rad like that...one screw in one corner, each?

Is it worth it to stack Radiators?

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