E5 2640v2 = E3 1240v3 + $5,000? What am I missing?
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Business Computing
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Servers
Last response: in Business Computing
Dan-W
September 8, 2014 7:32:47 AM
When I bought our primary server 5 years ago, I just listened to the local HP partner and it cost $10k, twice my budget. Now, I want to understand more and possibly save money. Sorry for the long post.
It is time to refresh our server hardware and I want to replace two servers, as we use replication to minimize downtime risk. I want to buy the weaker of two servers now, and get a stronger one in 1-2 years for our medical office of 20 staff and 25 workstations. My current server is working fine, but I fear it is past the time to depend on it. I want to make my current server secondary to the server I buy now. In 1-2 years, the server I buy now would become secondary to the stronger server. Then, I would mothball my present server for any emergency.
We primarily work with 4 small databases for a total of 200 GB where speed is desirable (Sql Server Express, MS Access, and 2 Advantage) and 2 archival databases of 100 GB, both MS Access. We have about 1 TB of archival documents as well, and I keep an image of the production array on the archival array. Our data growth is very slow and should be stable. The only future change I foresee is consolidating the 4 small databases into a single Sql Server database.
We are getting adequate speed on a 5 year old HP ML350 G5 with 5520 chipset and a single Xeon E5504 @2.0 GHz, 4 cores, 4 threads, and a PassMark score of 2,796. It has 16 GB of DDR3 800 ram. There are 2 SAS arrays of Raid 10 using a single 1 GB controller. The production array is using 300 GB 15k drives and the archival array is 2 TB 7.2k drives. It has a 2 port 1 gb Intel Pro network adapter for our gb network. We are using VMWare ESXi to replicate to a 9 year old server, which would be a dog if we had to use it. We have good backup, which has been refreshed recently and broke my budget.
The Value server option is a HP ML310e Gen 8 v2 with C222 single socket chipset and a Haswell Xeon E3 1240v3 @ 3.4 GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, and a PassMark score of 9,737. For PCIe/bus width/connector width, the chipset's 4 expansion slots are 3.0/x8/x16, 3.0/x8/x8, 2.0/x1/x8, and 2.0/x1/x4. It would have it's maximum of 32 GB of DDR3 1600 ram. All drives are 2.5”. The first array would be Raid 1 with a HP 2 GB P series Smart Array with flash back write cache controller in the first slot for 2 Intel DC S3500 300 GB drives. The second array would be Raid 10 with the motherboard embedded 1 GB controller for 6x HP SATA 1 TB 7.2k drives. It comes with a 2 port 1 gb HP 332i network adapter and redundant power supply.
The Performance server option is a HP ML350p Gen 8 with C600 double socket chipset and a single Ivy Bridge Xeon E5 2640v2 @ 2.0 GHz, 8 cores, 16 threads, and a PassMark score of 10,132. For PCIe/bus width/connector width, the chipset's 4 expansion slots for a single cpu are 3.0/x8/x16, 3.0/x4/x8, 3.0/x16/x16, and 3.0/x4/x8. There are 5 expansion slots for a second cpu. It would have 64 GB of DDR3 1600 ram. All drives are 2.5”. The first array would be Raid 1 with a HP 2 GB Pseries Smart Array with flash back write cache controller in the first expansion slot for 2 Intel DC S3700 400 GB drives and the second array would be Raid 10 with a 2 GB controller for 6x HP SAS 1.2 TB 10k drives. It comes with a 4 port 1 gb HP 331i network adapter and redundant power supply.
The value server has only 4 cores/8 threads, a maximum of 32 GB of ram, and only 1 cpu on the motherboard in exchange for much higher clock speed. I can increase the performance of the value server by putting in the upgrades from the performance server, such as the better drives (especially the Intel S3700 ssds), 2 of the 2GB controllers, and a 4 port network adapter, but cannot increase the ram above 32 GB.
In my inexperienced opinion, I believe both servers would at least double the performance, and hopefully equal the reliability of my present server (SSDs, increased ram and threads, improved processors). This purchase is destined to be a primary server for 2 years and a secondary server for 5 years.
Using HP smart buys, buying the rest of the hardware (except Intel SSDs) from HP online, and then assembling it myself is $6,800 for the value server and $11,700 for the performance server. If I use different vendors for HP parts, it is $4,400 and $8,200 respectively. We have a HP partner in our small city that configured my present server, but the closest HP listed reseller is 200 miles away. I wanted to get a money free opinion from this forum before talking to the partner and to a reseller, in case of bias for $12k hardware.
My questions are: What value would I be getting for $5k more on hardware only? Does the HP ML310 line have a similar reputation for reliability as the ML350 line? Are the expansion options of the C600 chipset so much more valuable for the next 5-10 years in a slow growth business like mine? Are the better drives worth the difference? What am I missing?
It is time to refresh our server hardware and I want to replace two servers, as we use replication to minimize downtime risk. I want to buy the weaker of two servers now, and get a stronger one in 1-2 years for our medical office of 20 staff and 25 workstations. My current server is working fine, but I fear it is past the time to depend on it. I want to make my current server secondary to the server I buy now. In 1-2 years, the server I buy now would become secondary to the stronger server. Then, I would mothball my present server for any emergency.
We primarily work with 4 small databases for a total of 200 GB where speed is desirable (Sql Server Express, MS Access, and 2 Advantage) and 2 archival databases of 100 GB, both MS Access. We have about 1 TB of archival documents as well, and I keep an image of the production array on the archival array. Our data growth is very slow and should be stable. The only future change I foresee is consolidating the 4 small databases into a single Sql Server database.
We are getting adequate speed on a 5 year old HP ML350 G5 with 5520 chipset and a single Xeon E5504 @2.0 GHz, 4 cores, 4 threads, and a PassMark score of 2,796. It has 16 GB of DDR3 800 ram. There are 2 SAS arrays of Raid 10 using a single 1 GB controller. The production array is using 300 GB 15k drives and the archival array is 2 TB 7.2k drives. It has a 2 port 1 gb Intel Pro network adapter for our gb network. We are using VMWare ESXi to replicate to a 9 year old server, which would be a dog if we had to use it. We have good backup, which has been refreshed recently and broke my budget.
The Value server option is a HP ML310e Gen 8 v2 with C222 single socket chipset and a Haswell Xeon E3 1240v3 @ 3.4 GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, and a PassMark score of 9,737. For PCIe/bus width/connector width, the chipset's 4 expansion slots are 3.0/x8/x16, 3.0/x8/x8, 2.0/x1/x8, and 2.0/x1/x4. It would have it's maximum of 32 GB of DDR3 1600 ram. All drives are 2.5”. The first array would be Raid 1 with a HP 2 GB P series Smart Array with flash back write cache controller in the first slot for 2 Intel DC S3500 300 GB drives. The second array would be Raid 10 with the motherboard embedded 1 GB controller for 6x HP SATA 1 TB 7.2k drives. It comes with a 2 port 1 gb HP 332i network adapter and redundant power supply.
The Performance server option is a HP ML350p Gen 8 with C600 double socket chipset and a single Ivy Bridge Xeon E5 2640v2 @ 2.0 GHz, 8 cores, 16 threads, and a PassMark score of 10,132. For PCIe/bus width/connector width, the chipset's 4 expansion slots for a single cpu are 3.0/x8/x16, 3.0/x4/x8, 3.0/x16/x16, and 3.0/x4/x8. There are 5 expansion slots for a second cpu. It would have 64 GB of DDR3 1600 ram. All drives are 2.5”. The first array would be Raid 1 with a HP 2 GB Pseries Smart Array with flash back write cache controller in the first expansion slot for 2 Intel DC S3700 400 GB drives and the second array would be Raid 10 with a 2 GB controller for 6x HP SAS 1.2 TB 10k drives. It comes with a 4 port 1 gb HP 331i network adapter and redundant power supply.
The value server has only 4 cores/8 threads, a maximum of 32 GB of ram, and only 1 cpu on the motherboard in exchange for much higher clock speed. I can increase the performance of the value server by putting in the upgrades from the performance server, such as the better drives (especially the Intel S3700 ssds), 2 of the 2GB controllers, and a 4 port network adapter, but cannot increase the ram above 32 GB.
In my inexperienced opinion, I believe both servers would at least double the performance, and hopefully equal the reliability of my present server (SSDs, increased ram and threads, improved processors). This purchase is destined to be a primary server for 2 years and a secondary server for 5 years.
Using HP smart buys, buying the rest of the hardware (except Intel SSDs) from HP online, and then assembling it myself is $6,800 for the value server and $11,700 for the performance server. If I use different vendors for HP parts, it is $4,400 and $8,200 respectively. We have a HP partner in our small city that configured my present server, but the closest HP listed reseller is 200 miles away. I wanted to get a money free opinion from this forum before talking to the partner and to a reseller, in case of bias for $12k hardware.
My questions are: What value would I be getting for $5k more on hardware only? Does the HP ML310 line have a similar reputation for reliability as the ML350 line? Are the expansion options of the C600 chipset so much more valuable for the next 5-10 years in a slow growth business like mine? Are the better drives worth the difference? What am I missing?
More about : 2640v2 1240v3 000 missing
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Reply to Dan-W
Eximo
September 8, 2014 8:06:46 AM
SSDs will speed things up a lot.
If you don't plan to use dual processors, don't waste the money buying the capacity. You can always purchase a processor with more cores. (And it doesn't sound like you are using the 4 you have)
The Haswell Xeon goes into an LGA1150 board, basically the consumer version. Nothing wrong with that, just not the same "Server" class board as the other one. There are single processor boards for LGA2011
For a little future proofing you might look into Haswell E (LGA2011-3) which was released basically this month. DDR4 memory and a few other technological improvements.
If it were me I would buy a platform with a CPU upgrade path, not adding another processor, but just being able to replace the CPU for a faster one. 8 cores at 2.0Ghz is probably plenty for a basic server, but they make 8 core Ivy Bridge E that run at 3.4Ghz (with boosts as high as 4.1Ghz) And 12 core processors that run at 2.7 Ghz.
Haswell E offers some crazy ones as well, so a single socket board doesn't lose you much. 4-18 cores if you can afford them.
If you don't plan to use dual processors, don't waste the money buying the capacity. You can always purchase a processor with more cores. (And it doesn't sound like you are using the 4 you have)
The Haswell Xeon goes into an LGA1150 board, basically the consumer version. Nothing wrong with that, just not the same "Server" class board as the other one. There are single processor boards for LGA2011
For a little future proofing you might look into Haswell E (LGA2011-3) which was released basically this month. DDR4 memory and a few other technological improvements.
If it were me I would buy a platform with a CPU upgrade path, not adding another processor, but just being able to replace the CPU for a faster one. 8 cores at 2.0Ghz is probably plenty for a basic server, but they make 8 core Ivy Bridge E that run at 3.4Ghz (with boosts as high as 4.1Ghz) And 12 core processors that run at 2.7 Ghz.
Haswell E offers some crazy ones as well, so a single socket board doesn't lose you much. 4-18 cores if you can afford them.
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Reply to Eximo
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Dan-W
September 8, 2014 9:41:04 AM
Thanks Eximo,
Delayed response due to work. I think your point about a CPU upgrade path is a good one and the LGA1150 motherboard is limited. Peace of mind is more important than a few thousand dollars.
Any thoughts on the relative reliability of the different servers?
I'm not experienced enough to start from the motherboard and build a server, and I want to trust the HP engineers to do it better, even if dated.
Delayed response due to work. I think your point about a CPU upgrade path is a good one and the LGA1150 motherboard is limited. Peace of mind is more important than a few thousand dollars.
Any thoughts on the relative reliability of the different servers?
I'm not experienced enough to start from the motherboard and build a server, and I want to trust the HP engineers to do it better, even if dated.
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Reply to Dan-W
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Eximo
September 8, 2014 11:18:22 AM
You do get the warranty support and presumably enterprise class support 24/7 with an OEM.
Building a server class system from scratch is no different then building a standard computer. You just start with a server class motherboard, get a server class processor, and ECC memory. Enterprise class SSDs are easy enough to buy, configuring for the desired raid array not that complicated. Network interface cards if you are going optical or just high speed. Only advantage here is that you don't end up with anything you don't really need. If you are running Windows server or Linux, or some other flavor of Unix, then you just have to put your OS on there and set it up. Only way to learn is to do it.
Both the LGA1150 and LGA2011 socket are end of life for all intents and purposes. Should be one more generation for LGA1150 but that is just a process improvement not a design improvement, so functionally identical to Haswell with slightly higher clocks, and LGA2011 has already been replaced with LGA2011-3 which is not backwards compatible, for DDR4 support.
It shouldn't be long before the OEMs start offering Haswell-E builds, which is the only thing I could justify buying in terms of a server. Broadwell Xeon might be worthwhile in terms of energy efficiency and core clock speeds for quad cores. But if you are looking at 8 core or more then Ivy Bridge E and Haswell E are your only choices. Just not sure I would be putting together a DDR3 system, unless you fully populate the memory.
We have Dell T7610 at work, and they are, as usual, overkill. Two configs, one with a single 8 core Xeon at 3.5Ghz 64GB 1866, and another with dual 12 Cores at 2.4Ghz 128GB 1866. These are used as PCs and not servers. But we tend to keep them around for a while and this is a engineering company.
Building a server class system from scratch is no different then building a standard computer. You just start with a server class motherboard, get a server class processor, and ECC memory. Enterprise class SSDs are easy enough to buy, configuring for the desired raid array not that complicated. Network interface cards if you are going optical or just high speed. Only advantage here is that you don't end up with anything you don't really need. If you are running Windows server or Linux, or some other flavor of Unix, then you just have to put your OS on there and set it up. Only way to learn is to do it.
Both the LGA1150 and LGA2011 socket are end of life for all intents and purposes. Should be one more generation for LGA1150 but that is just a process improvement not a design improvement, so functionally identical to Haswell with slightly higher clocks, and LGA2011 has already been replaced with LGA2011-3 which is not backwards compatible, for DDR4 support.
It shouldn't be long before the OEMs start offering Haswell-E builds, which is the only thing I could justify buying in terms of a server. Broadwell Xeon might be worthwhile in terms of energy efficiency and core clock speeds for quad cores. But if you are looking at 8 core or more then Ivy Bridge E and Haswell E are your only choices. Just not sure I would be putting together a DDR3 system, unless you fully populate the memory.
We have Dell T7610 at work, and they are, as usual, overkill. Two configs, one with a single 8 core Xeon at 3.5Ghz 64GB 1866, and another with dual 12 Cores at 2.4Ghz 128GB 1866. These are used as PCs and not servers. But we tend to keep them around for a while and this is a engineering company.
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Reply to Eximo
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Dan-W
September 8, 2014 12:32:49 PM
Casper42
September 27, 2014 2:08:49 PM
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