Selecting Small/Mid Size Business Router
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- Routers
- LAN
- Networking
- Verizon
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Business Computing
Last response: in Networking
nda38189
September 24, 2014 4:44:07 AM
Hey all, this is my first post here but I always look up questions on this site as I find that mostly everyone here has great advice and experience to offer! Sorry for the long message but I want to give you all the information I think is necessary (sorry if I forget anything!)
First, my issue: we use Verizon FIOS at our small business site. We have been having huge issues trying to open ports on our Aciontec router provided by Verizon (the second one they gave me worked for about a month before the router closed the ports and refused to re-open them, even after a factory reset). I'm on my third router from Verizon and I'm fed up since the ports won't open again. I know it's a router issue since I plugged my WAN connection from FIOS directly into my server and the ports were open and functional (double checked with canyouseeme.org) - it was only when I connected it through the router that those ports become closed. The tech from Verizon told me that the routers are garbage and to get a real business class router for our company regardless. So my boss has agreed that it's time to replace the router with something that can truly handle our needs.
Next, our needs: Our company is small but we are an engineering firm and have a lot of connected devices (mostly wired). We have one 24-port Netgear gigabit switch (with about 20 connections) and 2 smaller Netgear 10/100 switches (like 4 ports each, each with about 2-3 connections). So there's about 25-30 LAN/ethernet connected devices. We have one server, about 15 desktops, a few laptops (that plug into an ethernet when in the office), and about 3 printers. We have one wireless access point which seems to be serving our wireless needs for the most part (primarily a few ipads and everyone's phone) so I don't think we have an immediate need for a wireless router or more access points (though a replacement one may be in the works soon).
What we first tried: My coworker brought in a Netgear N900 WNDR4500 router. It worked great when the server, 1 computer, and the 2 smaller switches were connected, but the second I connected the 24-port switch I lost connection everywhere (assuming it bottlenecked). This may have something to do with the way the wires are set up now, though. We have the router using all 4 LAN ports as opposed to running everything to the 24-port switch first, so the server is one port, one computer (next to it) is another port, the 2 switches are a third port, and the fourth port is the 24-port switch. Either way we're returning the Netgear to purchase something else soon (unless the issue really is just how everything is wired up).
So, now that I've given you my life story, here are my questions:
1. What router (wired or wireless) do you think would work best for our needs of 25-30 wired connected devices (not including everyone's cell phone to connect through the wireless access point)? Budget is probably up to $1000 max for just the router but would like to spend less than $500 if possible.
2. Should I change the connectivity of my system to bring the server and all other switches back to the 24-port Netgear gigabit switch and just run one cable from there back to my (soon-to-be) new router?
Any help would be great! I really appreciate it!!
First, my issue: we use Verizon FIOS at our small business site. We have been having huge issues trying to open ports on our Aciontec router provided by Verizon (the second one they gave me worked for about a month before the router closed the ports and refused to re-open them, even after a factory reset). I'm on my third router from Verizon and I'm fed up since the ports won't open again. I know it's a router issue since I plugged my WAN connection from FIOS directly into my server and the ports were open and functional (double checked with canyouseeme.org) - it was only when I connected it through the router that those ports become closed. The tech from Verizon told me that the routers are garbage and to get a real business class router for our company regardless. So my boss has agreed that it's time to replace the router with something that can truly handle our needs.
Next, our needs: Our company is small but we are an engineering firm and have a lot of connected devices (mostly wired). We have one 24-port Netgear gigabit switch (with about 20 connections) and 2 smaller Netgear 10/100 switches (like 4 ports each, each with about 2-3 connections). So there's about 25-30 LAN/ethernet connected devices. We have one server, about 15 desktops, a few laptops (that plug into an ethernet when in the office), and about 3 printers. We have one wireless access point which seems to be serving our wireless needs for the most part (primarily a few ipads and everyone's phone) so I don't think we have an immediate need for a wireless router or more access points (though a replacement one may be in the works soon).
What we first tried: My coworker brought in a Netgear N900 WNDR4500 router. It worked great when the server, 1 computer, and the 2 smaller switches were connected, but the second I connected the 24-port switch I lost connection everywhere (assuming it bottlenecked). This may have something to do with the way the wires are set up now, though. We have the router using all 4 LAN ports as opposed to running everything to the 24-port switch first, so the server is one port, one computer (next to it) is another port, the 2 switches are a third port, and the fourth port is the 24-port switch. Either way we're returning the Netgear to purchase something else soon (unless the issue really is just how everything is wired up).
So, now that I've given you my life story, here are my questions:
1. What router (wired or wireless) do you think would work best for our needs of 25-30 wired connected devices (not including everyone's cell phone to connect through the wireless access point)? Budget is probably up to $1000 max for just the router but would like to spend less than $500 if possible.
2. Should I change the connectivity of my system to bring the server and all other switches back to the 24-port Netgear gigabit switch and just run one cable from there back to my (soon-to-be) new router?
Any help would be great! I really appreciate it!!
More about : selecting small mid size business router
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Reply to nda38189
If you would have connected say one of your 4 port switches to the router and to your 24 port switch and then connected the 24 port switch to the router you will get a loop.
I would have to dig the specs up on that router but many routers have a small switch chip inside running the lan ports. Traffic between the lan ports never leaves this chip and they in general are rated to be able to run all ports sending a receiving maximum data on all port simultaneously.
So just connecting the switch should have little impact. You should be able to run traffic between pretty much any combination of ports. Most times you will exceed the end device ability before you exceed network capacity in a lan environment.
The only bottleneck to worry about would be if the router could pass enough wan-lan traffic. In the very simple test cases a lot of routers can approach the gig speeds for wan-lan. In real world it is harder to say since it is affected by the total number of simultaneous sessions and stuff like packet size in addition to the raw amount of data you would send.
Still that netgear should be able to exceed the actiontec box.
Your best lan configuration is to be as close as you can to running everything on a single switch. There is almost no bottle neck passing traffic between ports within a single switch when you connect multiple switches you are placing a limitation of the connection cable. So if I had 4 machines 2 on each switch all on gig ports with a single gig connection between the switches the total traffic I could pass between the machines is 1g (2g if I transfer in both directions at the same time). With all 4 machines on the same switch I could get 2g (4g in/out). Generally if you understand how your traffic flows and the rates that you can expect you can easily design multiple switch configuration that will work. Just having more switches does not have much impact if you do not exceed port capacities.
I would have to dig the specs up on that router but many routers have a small switch chip inside running the lan ports. Traffic between the lan ports never leaves this chip and they in general are rated to be able to run all ports sending a receiving maximum data on all port simultaneously.
So just connecting the switch should have little impact. You should be able to run traffic between pretty much any combination of ports. Most times you will exceed the end device ability before you exceed network capacity in a lan environment.
The only bottleneck to worry about would be if the router could pass enough wan-lan traffic. In the very simple test cases a lot of routers can approach the gig speeds for wan-lan. In real world it is harder to say since it is affected by the total number of simultaneous sessions and stuff like packet size in addition to the raw amount of data you would send.
Still that netgear should be able to exceed the actiontec box.
Your best lan configuration is to be as close as you can to running everything on a single switch. There is almost no bottle neck passing traffic between ports within a single switch when you connect multiple switches you are placing a limitation of the connection cable. So if I had 4 machines 2 on each switch all on gig ports with a single gig connection between the switches the total traffic I could pass between the machines is 1g (2g if I transfer in both directions at the same time). With all 4 machines on the same switch I could get 2g (4g in/out). Generally if you understand how your traffic flows and the rates that you can expect you can easily design multiple switch configuration that will work. Just having more switches does not have much impact if you do not exceed port capacities.
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Reply to bill001g
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nda38189
September 24, 2014 5:28:43 AM
bill001g said:
If you would have connected say one of your 4 port switches to the router and to your 24 port switch and then connected the 24 port switch to the router you will get a loop. I would have to dig the specs up on that router but many routers have a small switch chip inside running the lan ports. Traffic between the lan ports never leaves this chip and they in general are rated to be able to run all ports sending a receiving maximum data on all port simultaneously.
So just connecting the switch should have little impact. You should be able to run traffic between pretty much any combination of ports. Most times you will exceed the end device ability before you exceed network capacity in a lan environment.
The only bottleneck to worry about would be if the router could pass enough wan-lan traffic. In the very simple test cases a lot of routers can approach the gig speeds for wan-lan. In real world it is harder to say since it is affected by the total number of simultaneous sessions and stuff like packet size in addition to the raw amount of data you would send.
Still that netgear should be able to exceed the actiontec box.
Your best lan configuration is to be as close as you can to running everything on a single switch. There is almost no bottle neck passing traffic between ports within a single switch when you connect multiple switches you are placing a limitation of the connection cable. So if I had 4 machines 2 on each switch all on gig ports with a single gig connection between the switches the total traffic I could pass between the machines is 1g (2g if I transfer in both directions at the same time). With all 4 machines on the same switch I could get 2g (4g in/out). Generally if you understand how your traffic flows and the rates that you can expect you can easily design multiple switch configuration that will work. Just having more switches does not have much impact if you do not exceed port capacities.
Thank you so much for your fast reply! I really appreciate it!! So you're basically saying that the LAN ports on the router can operate as a switch and are independent of any possible traffic issues between the WAN and LAN (those limitations are purely decided by the ISP)?
And I guess with my long question I left out one detail lol...when I plugged in the 24-port switch I immediate saw (on my Netgear Genie app, assuming it isn't garbage) that there was "high traffic" on the internet connection and then that's when everything locked up. But I don't believe it was even able to access the server which is locally available, which was weird. Does that mean it would be a router limitation since the server was not able to be accessed too or is it still probably an ISP limitation?
By the way, as a side note with the Actiontec router we can all access the internet in the office now - it's primarily the port forwarding that can't seem to work with this particular router (and a few other glitches that bother me about it).
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Ra_V_en
September 24, 2014 5:51:50 AM
The situation you described shouldn't happen. There is no such thing as limiting of station directly or indirectly connected to the router (at least not on this scale). Id rather say there was some mistake in cabling or a network loop which made a mess within all switching devices. As for none professional use this Neatger is an awesome router and should be more than fine.
First of all to make a complete shopping list you need to provide full description of the network including the way this "server" is used. What kind of services this server provides... is it mainly WAN directed (http, ftp, other service) or LAN (database, file server, etc). Also are you using remote connections, VLAN, VPN or any other business level of services. This information is a basic knowledge to determine is it enough to use home grade router or u need to go one level up.
Also provide information about the models of the switches, in the conditions you described it seems simply another 24port switch would be enough for the needs. Maybe even its still possible to use all the switches you have (witch some minor flaws in LAN performance).
First of all to make a complete shopping list you need to provide full description of the network including the way this "server" is used. What kind of services this server provides... is it mainly WAN directed (http, ftp, other service) or LAN (database, file server, etc). Also are you using remote connections, VLAN, VPN or any other business level of services. This information is a basic knowledge to determine is it enough to use home grade router or u need to go one level up.
Also provide information about the models of the switches, in the conditions you described it seems simply another 24port switch would be enough for the needs. Maybe even its still possible to use all the switches you have (witch some minor flaws in LAN performance).
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Reply to Ra_V_en
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If you were to hook the server to the router and all the other users to a switch that was then connected to the router you could unplug the wan connection and it would have no impact on the traffic between the users and the server. You really need to think of the lan ports as a 5 port switch with one of those ports hooked to the router chip internally. The only traffic that passes over this connection other than the traffic to the ISP is the wireless traffic.
The amount to traffic that can pass over the wan connection is a combination of ISP limitations and the router CPU capacity. Now this cpu is the router chip not the one that does switching. The utilization of the router cpu is seldom a issue but if you were to say configure very advanced firewall filters or VPN you could impact the traffic. This again is only traffic going to and from the wan it should have no impact on lan-lan traffic.
The amount to traffic that can pass over the wan connection is a combination of ISP limitations and the router CPU capacity. Now this cpu is the router chip not the one that does switching. The utilization of the router cpu is seldom a issue but if you were to say configure very advanced firewall filters or VPN you could impact the traffic. This again is only traffic going to and from the wan it should have no impact on lan-lan traffic.
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Reply to bill001g
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nda38189
September 24, 2014 8:31:29 AM
Ra_V_en said:
The situation you described shouldn't happen. There is no such thing as limiting of station directly or indirectly connected to the router (at least not on this scale). Id rather say there was some mistake in cabling or a network loop which made a mess within all switching devices. As for none professional use this Neatger is an awesome router and should be more than fine. First of all to make a complete shopping list you need to provide full description of the network including the way this "server" is used. What kind of services this server provides... is it mainly WAN directed (http, ftp, other service) or LAN (database, file server, etc). Also are you using remote connections, VLAN, VPN or any other business level of services. This information is a basic knowledge to determine is it enough to use home grade router or u need to go one level up.
Also provide information about the models of the switches, in the conditions you described it seems simply another 24port switch would be enough for the needs. Maybe even its still possible to use all the switches you have (witch some minor flaws in LAN performance).
Thanks for your reply! I agree I didn't think this should happen but when the issue occurred only after I plugged in the switch I just assumed that it was due to too much traffic (again, I'm familiar with computers/building computers but not at all familiar with networking). I would need to thoroughly check the cabling (most of it is inside the walls, so some tracing would need to be done) but being that the current router is functioning without reporting "high traffic" or other issues (minus the main port forwarding issue) makes me think that there aren't any loops. Is there a situation where some routers would still function with a loop present when others won't?
I also agree that this particular Netgear router is awesome (I use it at my house and have had absolutely no issues with it there). Our server is mainly LAN directed (primarily used for database and license managers for certain in-house applications as well as a file server) but I know my boss has expressed interest in possibly being able to remotely log into our server (I'm assuming he's referring to setting up VPN). So basically it's primarily a file-server with the desire to be able to remotely access it to obtain the files outside of the office.
The Netgear switches are: 5-port GS605v4 (10/100/1000), 5-port FS105 (10/100), and ProSafe 24-port Gigabit Switch JGS524 (10/100/1000). Something happened before I started here with the switch (I think it used to have Sonicwall or something) but I couldn't even tell you how to get into it since I think it solely acts as a switch now (no protection).
Does that additional information provide any more insight for the issue? Please let me know and thanks again for responding so far!
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nda38189
September 24, 2014 8:35:26 AM
bill001g said:
If you were to hook the server to the router and all the other users to a switch that was then connected to the router you could unplug the wan connection and it would have no impact on the traffic between the users and the server. You really need to think of the lan ports as a 5 port switch with one of those ports hooked to the router chip internally. The only traffic that passes over this connection other than the traffic to the ISP is the wireless traffic.The amount to traffic that can pass over the wan connection is a combination of ISP limitations and the router CPU capacity. Now this cpu is the router chip not the one that does switching. The utilization of the router cpu is seldom a issue but if you were to say configure very advanced firewall filters or VPN you could impact the traffic. This again is only traffic going to and from the wan it should have no impact on lan-lan traffic.
Sorry - I totally didn't mean to click "choose this as the solution" but it seems I did. Do you know how to change that haha?
Also thanks for the explanation - that makes a lot of sense. I figured the router's LAN ports were just like a switch but didn't realize the hardware was basically completely different/segregated. I assume that if I have a router today that can handle the internet traffic over the WAN then this router should be able to do the same (being that it isn't a worse router at all)?
Also, as a side note, the Actiontec router only has WAN speeds of 10/100 while the Netgear router has WAN speeds of 10/100/1000. Would allowing the computers to access the internet at faster speeds cause a bottleneck issue at all (assuming that everyone is trying to stream videos or something, let's say)?
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Reply to nda38189
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Unselected, although I expect that bill001g will provide the best solution.
Unless your Internet speed exceeds 100Mbps, a gigabit router (or switch) should not improve Internet speed. It will, however, allow all devices that are attached to the gigabit router (or switch) directly to transfer data much faster than those on a slower switch or router LAN port.
As bill001g said, the only time that the router will affect speed is if the device is directly connected to the router LAN ports or if the traffic goes off the subnet, which requires routing. All data movement within the subnet uses MAC addresses, not IP addresses so the router is not involved in the transfers say between two computers attached to a gigabit switch on the network.
Unless your Internet speed exceeds 100Mbps, a gigabit router (or switch) should not improve Internet speed. It will, however, allow all devices that are attached to the gigabit router (or switch) directly to transfer data much faster than those on a slower switch or router LAN port.
As bill001g said, the only time that the router will affect speed is if the device is directly connected to the router LAN ports or if the traffic goes off the subnet, which requires routing. All data movement within the subnet uses MAC addresses, not IP addresses so the router is not involved in the transfers say between two computers attached to a gigabit switch on the network.
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Reply to RealBeast
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nda38189
September 24, 2014 8:52:45 AM
RealBeast said:
Unselected, although I expect that bill001g will provide the best solution.
Unless your Internet speed exceeds 100Mbps, a gigabit router (or switch) should not improve Internet speed. It will, however, allow all devices that are attached to the gigabit router (or switch) directly to transfer data much faster than those on a slower switch or router LAN port.
Thank you (and I agree that bill001g will provide the best solution as well haha
)!Ok so that's good to know - the faster WAN port wouldn't make a difference if the ISP limits the speed to a slower speed.
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Ra_V_en
September 24, 2014 9:28:21 AM
nda38189
September 24, 2014 9:32:37 AM
Ra_V_en said:
Well then ill just sit and watch further progress in this topic, no need to chase a rabbit.Sorry I didn't mean it like that - I was just jokingly commenting with the moderator since I accidentally hit the best solution button for the other comment but had to "report it as abuse" to undo it! I really appreciate your help and would love more feedback from you if you have any more!!!
Also if any of the information I provided helps find a solution is greatly appreciate your input!
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Reply to nda38189
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Pretty much you are going to have to go back to the old way to troubleshoot networks. Managed switches are so nice when you have issues.
I would plug the 24 port switch into the router with all the user machine unplugged. This should have no impact at all. Then you can add a few machines at a time until you see the issue. If it is not a loop it has to be something like a duplicate IP or some machine sending some kind of traffic that is causing a issue. A switch is really stupid so the device by itself can not really cause a issue.
I would plug the 24 port switch into the router with all the user machine unplugged. This should have no impact at all. Then you can add a few machines at a time until you see the issue. If it is not a loop it has to be something like a duplicate IP or some machine sending some kind of traffic that is causing a issue. A switch is really stupid so the device by itself can not really cause a issue.
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Reply to bill001g
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nda38189
September 24, 2014 9:58:30 AM
bill001g said:
Pretty much you are going to have to go back to the old way to troubleshoot networks. Managed switches are so nice when you have issues.I would plug the 24 port switch into the router with all the user machine unplugged. This should have no impact at all. Then you can add a few machines at a time until you see the issue. If it is not a loop it has to be something like a duplicate IP or some machine sending some kind of traffic that is causing a issue. A switch is really stupid so the device by itself can not really cause a issue.
Ok I can try that. My coworker has already returned the Netgear router - do you think there is a better router that might fit our needs or would that router have possibly done ok after troubleshooting? I just don't want to tell my boss we should buy the router we just returned and then have a similar issue...I can buy another router too if there's a model people have more experience with.
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So now I got curious since some newer router cpus have moved the switch into the same die even though it is logically separate. Your router has this switch chip in it, it is still a different physical chip. This appears to be quite a powerful device that the router software is only using a small subset of its features.
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/53115-PB01-R.pdf
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/53115-PB01-R.pdf
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Reply to bill001g
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Best solution
nda38189 said:
bill001g said:
Pretty much you are going to have to go back to the old way to troubleshoot networks. Managed switches are so nice when you have issues.I would plug the 24 port switch into the router with all the user machine unplugged. This should have no impact at all. Then you can add a few machines at a time until you see the issue. If it is not a loop it has to be something like a duplicate IP or some machine sending some kind of traffic that is causing a issue. A switch is really stupid so the device by itself can not really cause a issue.
Ok I can try that. My coworker has already returned the Netgear router - do you think there is a better router that might fit our needs or would that router have possibly done ok after troubleshooting? I just don't want to tell my boss we should buy the router we just returned and then have a similar issue...I can buy another router too if there's a model people have more experience with.
There is not a huge difference when you are just looking at router functions. You will find that there is actually only a small handful of chips that all the routers use. There are some difference in the software but mostly that is personal preference. I tend to like router that you can load third party firmware on but I tend to like to play with my router....as opposed to just using it.
I would have to say any of the larger name routers should meet your needs. If you really want to see comparisons you can look at smallnetbuilder charts but most the difference are in wireless throughput wired is about the same and even older routers can exceed most peoples internet connection.
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nda38189
September 24, 2014 10:16:44 AM
bill001g said:
nda38189 said:
bill001g said:
Pretty much you are going to have to go back to the old way to troubleshoot networks. Managed switches are so nice when you have issues.I would plug the 24 port switch into the router with all the user machine unplugged. This should have no impact at all. Then you can add a few machines at a time until you see the issue. If it is not a loop it has to be something like a duplicate IP or some machine sending some kind of traffic that is causing a issue. A switch is really stupid so the device by itself can not really cause a issue.
Ok I can try that. My coworker has already returned the Netgear router - do you think there is a better router that might fit our needs or would that router have possibly done ok after troubleshooting? I just don't want to tell my boss we should buy the router we just returned and then have a similar issue...I can buy another router too if there's a model people have more experience with.
There is not a huge difference when you are just looking at router functions. You will find that there is actually only a small handful of chips that all the routers use. There are some difference in the software but mostly that is personal preference. I tend to like router that you can load third party firmware on but I tend to like to play with my router....as opposed to just using it.
I would have to say any of the larger name routers should meet your needs. If you really want to see comparisons you can look at smallnetbuilder charts but most the difference are in wireless throughput wired is about the same and even older routers can exceed most peoples internet connection.
Thanks! Will get a new router (may be the same one then haha) and try the set up again, with the suggestions from everyone who responded. Thanks again!!!
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Ra_V_en
September 24, 2014 10:29:45 AM
bill001g said:
Pretty much you are going to have to go back to the old way to troubleshoot networks. Managed switches are so nice when you have issues.I would plug the 24 port switch into the router with all the user machine unplugged. This should have no impact at all. Then you can add a few machines at a time until you see the issue. If it is not a loop it has to be something like a duplicate IP or some machine sending some kind of traffic that is causing a issue. A switch is really stupid so the device by itself can not really cause a issue.
Good call. I'd start with one PC connected to that 24p switch as a testing device. Open 2 cmd consoles running ping -t XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX, 1 for the gateway/router address, 1 for some outside address (google.com). Then plug 1 by 1 other switches, server and other hosts. At least you will know when exactly "magic" starts to happen.
Its funny how u debate about home grade routers considering build in chips, besides that wombling I certainly can't see any reason why any from widely available routers couldn't stand ~30 hosts. If you want to get anywhere beyond the performance of those routers you need to consider bussiness-class... and it all starts from RV Cisco Series. Thats my 2 cents.
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nda38189
September 24, 2014 10:40:40 AM
Ra_V_en said:
bill001g said:
Pretty much you are going to have to go back to the old way to troubleshoot networks. Managed switches are so nice when you have issues.I would plug the 24 port switch into the router with all the user machine unplugged. This should have no impact at all. Then you can add a few machines at a time until you see the issue. If it is not a loop it has to be something like a duplicate IP or some machine sending some kind of traffic that is causing a issue. A switch is really stupid so the device by itself can not really cause a issue.
Good call. I'd start with one PC connected to that 24p switch as a testing device. Open 2 cmd consoles running ping -t XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX, 1 for the gateway/router address, 1 for some outside address (google.com). Then plug 1 by 1 other switches, server and other hosts. At least you will know when exactly "magic" starts to happen.
Its funny how u debate about home grade routers considering build in chips, besides that wombling I certainly can't see any reason why any from widely available routers couldn't stand ~30 hosts. If you want to get anywhere beyond the performance of those routers you need to consider bussiness-class... and it all starts from RV Cisco Series. Thats my 2 cents.
Awesome - yeah I was considering running the server LAN cable to one of the spare ports on the 24-port switch anyway since I feel like it's just one device less to manage go through for the majority of users (I know it probably doesn't matter but it may make me sleep better at night haha!). I will definitely use your idea of pinging the router and one of google's IP addresses at each step. I will check the prices of the Cisco RV series routers and see if the price is far off from the Netgear one. If it is then I'll try the Netgear again (I think you and I are both in agreement it's a great router haha). Thanks again for the help!!
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