New rig unable to POST

gianiloco · Sep 27, 2014

Hello everyone. About 3 weeks ago I built a new rig. It's not my first build, but I have never had a problem as weird as this before. After assembly the pc would boot (fans spinning) but I would get no POST (no BIOS screen, peripheral devices would get no power). This was solved by removing one stick of ram from DIMM 4 (setup was one 4Gb stick in DIMM 2 and one in DIMM 4, as stated in the mobo manual). Leaving the DIMM 4 stick didn't work either. Thinking it was a motherboard problem I sent back the mobo, the cpu and the ram only to get it back with the statement that everything had been tested and worked perfectly. Needless to say it didn't work perfectly for me after reassembling.

So after a little more troubleshooting I found out that my pc works perfectly on stock cooling, but when I install my aftermarket cooler, that's when I get the problems again. Since I needed a new cpu cooler on another rig I decided to build it in and buy another cooler (totally different from the first) for my new rig. The first two days everything worked, but on day 3 I hit the jackpot again when I booted up only to have the pc starting up for a fraction of a second, then shutting down again. This continued for a few cycles, and when it finally booted I once more only had fans spinning but no post.

Troubleshooting I have done:
- used a different PSU
- used different ram
- used different cpu cooling

even when I only connect the motherboard and cpu power cables I get nothing with 2 sticks of RAM. Is this a busted motherboard? Or a problem with the CPU? (since the memory controller is in there)

Specs:
i5 4690K
2x4Gb G-Skill Ripjaws 2133Mhz 1.6v
MSI Z87-G45 Gaming on BIOS 1.9 (So there is Haswell-Refresh support)
samsung evo 240gb ssd
Corsair RM1000 1000W psu
XFX R9 280x CF

Any help would be very much appreciated!

Darkbreeze · Sep 29, 2014

Have you tried booting with the CPU fan plugged in to the CPU2 fan header? Perhaps there is an intermittent voltage issue with the CPU fan1 header. It might also be an issue with the RAM compatibility on the motherboard and CPU. The CPU only natively shows support for modules up to 1600mhz although we know it can support faster modules. I don't know about 2133 though. That might be pushing it. What speed are you assigning to the profile? Also, the motherboard doesn't indicate a specific memory voltage supported but I know a lot of boards won't support 1.6v RAM. You may want to verify with MSI that your board does in fact play well with the modules you have. I'm unsure as to whether or not your RAM will work at a lower voltage, but you can try it. Here is a thread about that very issue.

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1953693/ram-running.html

You can also try going into the BIOS and resetting to optimal or default values. Preferably Optimal to see if it automatically adjusts to conform.

gianiloco · Sep 29, 2014

Hey, thanks for your reply. I tried plugging the fan in CPU2, but it didn't make any difference. As for the RAM, I also tried 2 sticks of DDR3 1333Mhz, and that didn't work either. The only things that get it to work so far are:

- Booting with one or two sticks of ram from DIMM 1 and/or DIMM 2 (booting from DIMM 3 and/or DIMM 4 doesn't work)
- Booting with stock cooling (at least for the 3 days that I tested that setup, waiting for my new cooler)
- Sometimes when I remove the aftermarket cooler and re-attach it the pc boots, but 50% chance that it freezes later

Not sure if it helps but the first cooler I tried was a scythe shuriken rev b. The one I'm currently using is a Cooler Master Hyper TX3 Evo

Darkbreeze · Sep 30, 2014

This is extremely sketchy. NOTHING about the cpu fan should cause any issues aside from possible throttling if the system doesn't detect a fan. Especially if you've tried more than one aftermarket fan, unless there is any chance you are connecting the fan connector in reverse, which can happen. I'm sure you haven't done that but just double check. It's relatively easy to do. Make sure the clip for the connector lines up with the relief on the board or visa versa.

Also, if you are using a non-PWM 3 pin fan, make sure you are using the correct 3 pins of the 4 pin PWM motherboard header. I think it's very possible you have a bad board. You might try downgrading to the 1.8 or 1.7 BIOS to see if the issues resolve. I've seen a few threads with people that have had troubles using various hardware on the 1.9 BIOS.

gianiloco · Sep 30, 2014

I agree with you on the sketchy part

I have never encountered a problem like this before.
The CPU fan connector is a 4-pin which you can only connect one way (it has this plastic form that only goes in one way).
Other than that, I already upgraded my bios from 1.8 to 1.9 thinking this would solve the issue, so I don't think downgrading would help.

Could it be that the cpu aftermarket coolers are pressing down too hard on the cpu? (maybe because of a faulty cpu or motherboard?)
I already rma'd the mobo and cpu once, but since they tested the pc with stock cooling, no issues came up.
This really must be a one in a million problem :/

Darkbreeze · Sep 30, 2014

Yeah, I dunno on that. Unless your CPU cooler is held on with a giant C-clamp using unrealistic pressure, it shouldn't be an issue. That being said, I know some MSI and ASRock boards are pretty thin and prone to possible issues with heavy coolers. But if that happens generally the board is damaged and no longer works correctly, if at all, even with the stock cooler. Try running the unit with the CPU cooler UNPLUGGED, just for the sake of argument and only long enough to determine if the same issue still persists. Once it boots into windows, if it does, I'd go ahead and shut down.

It really sounds like it could possibly be a power issue, possibly with the CPU itself. I'm really not to sure on this one. Maybe one of the senior members here can offer some better advice.

gianiloco · Sep 30, 2014

The cooler weighs only 340 grammes, so I don't think it's very heavy. Unplugging the cpu cooler made no difference either, as you suspected.
I also found out that the pc does boot with 8 Gb of RAM (even with the ram overclocked) if I set them up in DIMM 1 & DIMM 2. But there is hardly any room in DIMM 1 because of the cpu cooler, plus that would mean I would have to run my ram in single-channel mode, correct?

So I could run my pc if I wanted to, but I'm just not happy that it doesn't work as it should. Anyway, thank you for your help.

Darkbreeze · Sep 30, 2014

Run the rig with the RAM in Dimm1 and Dimm2. Then run CPU-Z and take a look at the memory and SPD tabs. Make sure it ISN'T running in dual channel. I have a suspicion the instructions for Dimm3 and Dimm4 are a misprint in the manual. Pretty much every other board I've seen lists the DDR1 and DDR3, or DDR1 and DDR2 slots for dual channel. It might be wrong, just make sure it's NOT reporting as dual already, it just might be.

And if it's not, until you can figure out why, the difference you'll experience in speed vs dual channel is probably not all the noticeable other than on paper.

gianiloco · Sep 30, 2014

It's not just in the motherboard manual. It's also printed on the motherboard itself. Plus, with stock cooling it works perfectly fine with Dimm 2 & Dimm 4. Dimm 1 & Dimm 3 don't work either as I get the same thing as with DIMM 2&4.
But I'll go and take a look at CPU-Z to see what it tells me.

Darkbreeze · Sep 30, 2014

Nah, you're probably correct. I'm just trying to consider possibilities, however unlikely. I've never seen an issue related to stock vs aftermarket cooling that affected anything other than current draw (Possibly, in rare cases) or thermal issues aside from possibly not seating the cooler correctly and having it crank down on one of the surrounding motherboard components. Any chance that with the aftermarket cooler you're forgetting to use the plastic shield under the base bracket on the backside of the motherboard and shorting something out?

gianiloco · Oct 2, 2014

The cooler I'm using works exactly the same as the intel cooler. Just clips onto the motherboard. Same as with the shuriken. Sent the complete rig for rma. I'll let the pros sort it out. Thanks for your help. If I hear what the problem was I'll post

Darkbreeze · Oct 2, 2014

Sounds good. I'd like to know for future reference as well.

gianiloco · Oct 23, 2014

By means of an update: my system still hasn't been returned to me. after two weeks they still cannot make a diagnose.
You would think that changing out the mobo takes a little less time than two weeks...

Darkbreeze · Oct 23, 2014

That's crazy dude. THIS is exactly why most of the folks here in the KNOW, don't recommend MSI motherboards. Piss poor quality control and worse customer service. No offense to you of course for buying an MSI motherboard. Lot's of people have no issues with theirs, but there are plenty who do and getting MSI to make good can be a nightmare. ASUS and Gigabyte would have taken care of you by now, way by now, and likely even ASRock would have resolved the problem.

gianiloco · Nov 3, 2014

Hey, thought I'd do one more update:
I received an email stating that they fixed my system.
After asking what was found to be the problem they stated that resetting the RAM to 1333 mhz solved the problem.

Seeing as I already tried 1333mhz RAM unsuccessfully I'm a bit sceptical. Especially since it apparently took them 4 weeks to find out!

When I get the system back later this week I'll update if it works or not.

Thumbs up..

Darkbreeze · Nov 3, 2014

Right on bud. Glad to hear there's at least a chance now that it's resolved.

gianiloco · Nov 4, 2014

Will the 1333mhz vs 1600 or more make any difference gaming? especially given cl11 timings?

Darkbreeze · Nov 4, 2014

You know, I'd be kind of upset about the whole situation. That board should easily support faster speeds as should the cpu. 1333mhz will definitely affect performance as the Haswell cpus show definite improvement with RAM faster than 1600mhz, unlike the Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge cpus.

gianiloco · Nov 5, 2014

I am upset about this

Problem is that anything above 1600mhz is considered 'overclocking' and thus no support is offered.
So even though the place I got it sold 2133Mhz certified ram, they do not offer any support for it.
And so if the pc crashes at anything above 1600 Mhz but handles 1333Mhz (even if it should do more, I've looked it up before I bought the mobo) I'm stuck with it..

Funny how they do anything to get their hands on your money but offer zero support when push comes to shove.

Darkbreeze · Nov 5, 2014

It should not be considered "overclocking" in reality. Overclocking, for the board, would be anything beyond what is listed as a supported memory profile. If the motherboard could not stably support the speed, the manufacturer would not list it as supported on it's website. On it's product page MSI clearly states:

Supports 4th Gen Intel® Core™ / Pentium® / Celeron® processors for LGA 1150 socket
• Supports DDR3-3000(OC) Memory
• USB 3.0 + SATA 6Gb/s
• Audio Boost: Reward Your Ears with True Quality
• Killer Ethernet: Kill Your Lag
• Military Class 4: Top Quality & Stability
• OC Genie 4: Overclock in 1 Second
• Click BIOS 4: Easily Fine-tune Your System
• PCI Express Gen 3: World's 1st PCI Express Gen 3 Motherboard Brand
• Multi-GPU: NVIDIA SLI & AMD CrossFire Support
• Sound Blaster Cinema: Realistic Surround Sound Experience
• Gaming Device Port: Optimized with Triple Gold-plating for High Polling Rate Gaming Devices
• Total Fan Control: Optimize All Fan Speed As You Wish
• Lucid Virtu MVP 2.0: Uncompromised Game Response Performance
• Fast Boot: Quickly Boot Up & Enter OS in A Few Seconds

"Overclocking", when it comes to RAM, is when you take the memory beyond or faster than, IT'S intended profile. If you setup 1600Mhz RAM to run at 1866Mhz, that would be overclocked. The OC listed next to memory on the OEM page is really a misnomer. They are just washing their hands of the matter since they really don't know what's wrong and do not want to be responsible.

WHO did you send the rig to? The motherboard OEM? Did somebody else build this rig?

gianiloco · Nov 5, 2014

I built the rig. But I bought all parts from the same website (they also build computers) so they were the first to go to for warranty.

Darkbreeze · Nov 5, 2014

Ah, I see and understand. Well, as I said, the memory controller on the CPU isn't limited to 1333mhz nor does the motherboard have such a limitation so it should not be limited unless there is a setting or some kind of compatibility issue. Or, the RAM is of an unsupported type.

Darkbreeze · Nov 5, 2014

Did you get the rig back yet? If so, run CPU-Z and look on the SPD tab. Tell me what the reported model number is.

gianiloco · Nov 6, 2014

It should at least be back by saturday. When I get it, I'll look it up. Even if I can't get 2133Mhz to run, I would like to at least get it to work at 1600.

Darkbreeze · Nov 6, 2014

Yeah, for sure.

New rig unable to POST

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