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how to choose ram?

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October 2, 2014 7:57:01 AM

Does the manufacturer of ram really matter? or should i just buy based on the amount of gigs i want. (which speaking of--is 8gigs ok for gaming)

More about : choose ram

a c 248 4 Gaming
October 2, 2014 8:31:16 AM

"Run of the mill" or hi performance ?

Brand - I look 1st at Mushkin as the Redline series, at least the ones I have been getting have all been Hynix modules. In the upper performance range, they also have slightly better timings and won two recent Editor's Choice roundups her on THG. If I don't find what I am looking fir there, I'll look to Corsair and then Gskill. Everybody has their favorites but underneath, other than the modules used, it's pretty much all the same .... buty I don't like "blingy" graphic type logos. I avoid the new "lower priced" guys on the block .... no bad experiences, just been afraid to dump my toes in those waters.

Speed - Faster is better despite all the post to the contrary..... check THG reviews and you will see up to an 11% fps increase in some games with 2400, other games show 0% but the average is 2-5%.

CAS - Lower is better.

Height - Those tall heat sinks with the teethy things, have a very important cooling function .... and that is "looking cool" (I guess). That is the only cooling function they provide so best to stick with the low profile jobs which won't hit ya air coolers.

Warranty - If RAM is gonna fail it will do so in a short time, that's why just about everyone offers Lifetime warranty.

I like 2 x 8GB, 2 x 4Gb is certainly serviceable.

Best 2 x 8GB kit buy right now are the Mushkin 2133's @ $145
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Vest 2 x 4 GB kit buy is the Mushkin 2133 Blacklines @ $77
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...





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Best solution

October 2, 2014 8:37:25 AM

The manufacturer only matters if the name is questionable to you. If the names on the table are well-known like Corsair, Crucial, or G.Skill, then no, it doesn't matter. Brands like Team or Pareema might be good, but less people tend to buy these so the reviews might be more sparse.

GB capacity is important, but in many cases, so is speed. If you run integrated graphics, for example in an AMD APU, RAM performance is key to squeezing the most power out of them. The best APU's can handle DDR3-2133, while Intel's mainstream processors use DDR3-1600. The insane Haswell-E platform uses DDR4-2133.

And yes, 8 GB is OK for gaming :) 

Here are my recommendations for a variety of processors:

Intel mainstream processors (ix-4xxx): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Intel enthusiast processors (i7-5xxx):
http://pcpartpicker.com/mr/newegg/gskill-memory-f42133c...

AMD high-end APU (A8 or A10):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

AMD midrange APU (A4 or A6):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

AMD Socket AM1 APU:
same as Intel mainstream

Let me know your specs and I can find the perfect RAM for your system.
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 2, 2014 8:57:13 AM

The best one are in my post above..... if you still want 16 GB, nothing will touch those Mushkins. Corsair used to use Hynix modules (the Gold Standard) in their Vengeance Pro line but they switched to a cheaper supplier after version 4.51

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/memory-scaling-gami...

Quote:
We invited all of the major players in the retail memory business to participate in today’s evaluation of memory scaling across both desktop platforms with on-die graphics. The willing participants submitted samples ranging from a low-cost high-latency DDR3-1866 kit to high-cost low-latency DDR3-2400. We found that DDR3-2133 performed best on both AMD and Intel platforms, and Mushkin’s 997121R won the performance race by being latency-optimized at that data rate. It gets our most prestigious and rare Elite award for being the best product in its class.


In short, it's better and cheaper than anything offered by the competition at this point in time....at least on this side of the pond... UK will pay more.



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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 2, 2014 9:06:45 AM

Saves $2 :) 
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October 2, 2014 9:07:36 AM

It's 2 pounds cheaper lol. Both kits will serve you very well, it's just a matter of preference at this point.

Jack, that Mushkin kit is £170 in the UK. Is it better? Probably, but it's not cheaper.

EDIT: In retrospect, I'm sure you already knew that. BTW, love your signature :) 
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 2, 2014 9:11:20 AM

Yeah, that's why I said ..... "at least on this side of the pond... UK will pay more." Mushkin after all manufacturers all their RAM in US ... most everyone else in far east

Duhhh on the pounds thing tho
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October 2, 2014 9:13:20 AM

voltoid27 said:
It's 2 pounds cheaper lol. Both kits will serve you very well, it's just a matter of preference at this point.

Jack, that Mushkin kit is £170 in the UK. Is it better? Probably, but it's not cheaper.

EDIT: In retrospect, I'm sure you already knew that. BTW, love your signature :) 


I would better pay £2 extra to match ROG's motherboard design :D 

BTW, mushkin should look good on ROG's motherboard as well but is it worth £40 extra? I'm not this good at understanding clock speed and cas impact on performance :) 
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October 2, 2014 9:16:40 AM

Assuming a best case scenario of 11% improvement cited by Jack (and that's for DDR3-2400, not 2133), you would be paying 29% more for the privilege. So no, not in the UK.
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 2, 2014 9:20:58 AM

Well yes, I have the Mushkin Ridgebacks in the Asus Maximus VI Formula and they do match perfectly .... can't see very well in this pic tho.....

After this picture, I tweaked the coolant coloring a bit to better match the red.



If you were doing 2 x 4GB which is fine for a gaming box....the 2400s are only 70 pounds

I'd look at these 2 x 4Gb .... best 2400's on market .... dunno why the 16 Gb is so expensive over there .... except that Mushkin can't keep up with demand .... I scored my last set for $155 .... now they are $210 here

http://uk.pcpartpicker.com/part/mushkin-memory-997083
http://uk.pcpartpicker.com/part/mushkin-memory-997122r

here ya see the effect of faster speed memory on gaming performance w/ 2400..... 0% in Crysis / 11% in F1
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/32-gb-ddr3-ram,3790...

So would I pay 6 pounds to go from the Gskill 1600 set at 64 pounds to the 2400s at 70.... in a heartbeat.

But at 16GB, from 132 pounds to 200 is a bit harder to justify.... I would but wouldn't recommend that anyone on a budget take the jump.

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October 2, 2014 9:21:53 AM

voltoid27 said:
Assuming a best case scenario of 11% improvement cited by Jack (and that's for DDR3-2400, not 2133), you would be paying 29% more for the privilege. So no, not in the UK.


Ok, thank you, I will keep vengeance pro on my list then :) 
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October 2, 2014 9:27:11 AM

Wow Jack, that's a fantastic-looking rig! Kudos to you.
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October 2, 2014 9:27:11 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
Well yes, I have the Mushkin Ridgebacks in the Asus Maximus VI Formula and they do match perfectly .... can't see very well in this pic tho.....

After this picture, I tweaked the coolant coloring a bit to better match the red.



If you were doing 2 x 4GB which is fine for a gaming box....the 2400s are only 70 pounds

I'd look at these 2 x 4Gb .... best 2400's on market .... dunno why the 16 Gb is so expensive over there .... except that Mushkin can't keep up with demand .... I scored my last set for $155 .... now they are $210 here

http://uk.pcpartpicker.com/part/mushkin-memory-997083
http://uk.pcpartpicker.com/part/mushkin-memory-997122r

here ya see the effect of faster speed memory on gaming performance w/ 2400..... 0% in Crysis / 11% in F1
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/32-gb-ddr3-ram,3790...

So would I pay 6 pounds to go from the Gskill 1600 set at 64 pounds to the 2400s at 70.... in a heartbeat.

But at 16GB, from 132 pounds to 200 is a bit harder to justify.... I would but wouldn't recommend that anyone on a budget take the jump.



your rig looks too expensive for me :) 

The cheapest is £200 which is even more compared to the one you suggested earlier :S
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 2, 2014 9:27:12 AM

If ya go to 8GB take the Mushkin 2400s (just 6 pounds) .... just fine for a gaming box.... I use for CAD so 16GB a no brainer

If ya stay at 16 GB, take the Vengenace Pros if budget is a consideration.
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October 2, 2014 9:29:43 AM

Keep in mind that if you do go with the Mushkins the operating voltage is 10% higher than the G.Skills. Not a big deal, just something to think about.
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 2, 2014 9:37:31 AM

Yes, at 1600 speed, everybody is at 1.5 volts ... Most 1866 is now at 1.5 too and even some 2133's are starting to show up at 1.5 / 1.55

Under XMP setting for 2400 though, everybody (Corsair, Gskill, Mushkin ,etc) is at 1.65 volts. Those Hynix modules can withstand 1.9v and more.
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October 2, 2014 9:46:58 AM

JackNaylorPE said:
If ya go to 8GB take the Mushkin 2400s (just 6 pounds) .... just fine for a gaming box.... I use for CAD so 16GB a no brainer

If ya stay at 16 GB, take the Vengenace Pros if budget is a consideration.


well, if you look at the price of my build £50 won't make much of a difference but i need to know how much superior mushkin 2133 mhz or 2400 mhz is over vengeance pro 1866 mhz? will I notice a difference in day to day use as well as gaming?

also, mushkin has a way higher latency rates, as far as I know lower is better lol, but i have NO idea how big impact of CAS is on performance. Could you please clear this out for me? :) 

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October 2, 2014 9:50:58 AM

voltoid27 said:
Keep in mind that if you do go with the Mushkins the operating voltage is 10% higher than the G.Skills. Not a big deal, just something to think about.


tbh, I have no idea what you are talking about :D  is it related to power consumption or something to do with overclocking or something else? :D 
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October 2, 2014 10:17:32 AM

It's related to both. More voltage, more power consumption, more heat. People overvolt their RAM because it allows them to reach higher speeds or lower latencies. Generally sticks with lower rated voltages have more overclocking headroom, but it depends more on the module quality.

Really, you don't need to worry about it. Overclocking RAM doesn't do much for performance other than giving you bragging rights :D 
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October 2, 2014 10:22:41 AM

foreign said:
how much superior mushkin 2133 mhz or 2400 mhz is over vengeance pro 1866 mhz? will I notice a difference in day to day use as well as gaming?

also, mushkin has a way higher latency rates, as far as I know lower is better lol, but i have NO idea how big impact of CAS is on performance. Could you please clear this out for me? :) 



Not much. RAM speed doesn't affect performance more than 10% outside of synthetic benchmarks. You might see single digit percentage gains, but day-to-day use won't reveal any benefit.

CAS latency can't be evaluated on its own. DDR3-2133 at CL10 has much lower latency than DDR3-1600 CL10. The Mushkins' CAS latency is higher because the speed is higher, as latency is based on clock speed as well; the two essentially cancel out for similar latency compared to other sticks mentioned in this thread.. Latency doesn't have much of an impact on performance either. Lower is better, but price is a much more important factor.

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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 2, 2014 10:52:22 AM

FPS increases have been notes as high as 11% .... CAD, video recording, financial data manipulation all benefit significantly from faster RAM. The differences aren't much, barely breaking into double digits but again, a 980 is only 14% faster than a 970.

So the way to look at it is on return on investment. We have roughly a 1600 GBP build here.... assuming for the moment assume that OP goes with 8 GB system..... so +6GBP / $1600 GBP is a cost increase 0.4%. Since we know the performance increase is way more than 0.4%, this is the proverbial "no brainer".


Now lets look at a 1650 GBP system w/ 16GB and to stretch the issue , let's use those 200 GBP Mushkins which is a 68 GBP increase in cost.

68 / 1650 = 4% .... so with an average 2 - 5 % increase in performance, sometimes being 0% and sometimes being 11%, it's a bit more of a conundrum..... if you are a F1 fanatic, yeah sure....otherwise I could see an argument both for and against.

Those DDR3-1600 Corsair Vengeance CAS 9 kits are $145 here in US ... a pair of Gskill Tridents at 2400 CAS 10 are $175

1650 GBP is about $2650 here but let's take off $500 cause UK gets stuffed on prices. Maybe more / maybe less, i dodn't wanna redo whole build to find out :) 

$30 for 2400 over 1600 is a cost increase of 1.4% ..... now 2 - 5% performance increase looks a helluva lot better at a 1.4% increase in cost....so at US prices, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Her's how to compare latency ... if you have 1866 CAS 9 and 2133 CAS 9, 2133 is faster.

Your Corsairs are DDR3-1866 CAS 9
The Mushkins are DDR3-2400 CAS 10

CAS x 100/ DDR speed

So....

Corsairs = 9 x 1000 / 1866 = 4.82 nanoseconds
Mushkins = 10 x 1000 / 2400 = 4.16 nanoseconds

So with respect to CAS / latency, Corsairs are about 16 % slower.






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October 2, 2014 11:18:23 AM

And herein lies the problem with my logic. I considered only the cost of the RAM in the value, but RAM does not a PC make. When you look at it from a whole-build perspective, it does start to make sense.

By the way, your ns latency values are half of what the actual values are. Latency calculations use the "I/O bus speed", which is half of the advertised speed, as the bus isn't double-speed like the RAM itself (I can't explain it very well but it makes sense in my head :D ). The DDR part of DDR3 isn't taken into account. The formula is CAS * 100 / (speed / 2).

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October 3, 2014 8:29:11 AM

Jack, all you had to do is remove uk. from the link and hit "Enter" to see the price for my build in USA :) 

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/9dj3WZ

I have a dumb question, what the other 3 numbers mean in CAS or CL or whatever you call it? eg vengeance pro has the following latency: CAS 9-10-9-27

Also, what Non-ECC Unbuffered would mean?
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 3, 2014 8:36:30 AM

Either way ...same result if both are divided by 2 :) 

ECC is error correction.... not a 'thing' for desktops. Both addressed here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECC_memory

Looks like my US cost guestimate was perty close.





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October 3, 2014 3:19:37 PM

JackNaylorPE said:
Either way ...same result if both are divided by 2 :) 

ECC is error correction.... not a 'thing' for desktops. Both addressed here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECC_memory

Looks like my US cost guestimate was perty close.



So, what would be a better choice over vengeance pro 1866 cl9 for about the same price in UK? Could you please make your suggestions?

Also, I see u have a watercooled rig therefore I have a question, what's needed to watercool cpu and both gpus? I mean how many radiators, what size of radiators, what pump will be enough, reservoir, pipes, fittings, monitoring tools, etc?

I'm trying to estimate how much it would cost and see if I will go this route.

I have slightly better graphic cards on my list now :)  http://uk.pcpartpicker.com/p/Gh7rpg
They are definitely the fastest 970's right now and there is an option to get them watercooled:
http://www.alphacool.com/product_info.php/info/p1274_Al...
http://www.overclock.net/t/1514327/760-reference-waterb...
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 3, 2014 4:32:51 PM

I have had my problems with EVGA FTW's .... went thru 5 of them, not one was stable at factory overclock. And the FTW is not by any means the fastest one.

Hexus got the FTW up to 1,315MHz base and 1,466MHz boost but the MSI and Gigabyte have both passed 1500, at bit-tech, the MSI one also passed 1500. The copper cold plate is replaced with an aluminum one which has far less cnductivity so i don't see the FTW as competing with the likes of MSI and Gigabyte ... want to find out more about voltage control, chokes , caps and how they are cooled before forming a final opinion.

And I grind my teeth at reviews who state:

Quote:
This is what overclocking is all about, is it not? Why pay the premium for a GTX 980 when you can pick up a GTX 970 that, with a bit of tinkering, can be made to deliver a similar level of performance?


Why ???? Dude, the 980 can be overclocked too.

Now for water cooling.... 1st thing you have to decide is cstom water loop or AIO....lets go the later.

1. Download the radiator size estimator here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1457426/radiator-size-estima...

2. Pick a fan speed you can live with.....I recommend 1200-1250. We can see in the estimator that each 120mm of radiator provides about 60 watts of cooling at 10C Delta T w/ a radiator thickness of 30mm.

3. Lets add up ya stuff....

4790k ~ 135 watts OC';d.
GTX 970 ~ 175 watts OC'd to the wall x 2
Pump ~ 20 watts

So say 500 watts OC's about 400 watts at stock

4. You'll need the rads to be able to yank out about 60% f the heat, the other 40% will come from direct radiation to air....so 500 x 0.60 = 300 watts.....240 at stock

5. 300 watts / 60 watts per 120 = 5 .... so 5 x 120mm will give ya a Delta T of 10C....at stock, you need 4 x 120 for 10C. Now 10C is the generally accepted goal and represents the difference between coolant and ambient air temps. If you go for 4 x 120mm and run OC;d, your delta T would be 12.5C.

6. Because of the case you have chosen, I'd put a 2 x 120 rad or 3 x 120mm on top and a 2 x 120 on bottom.

Option 1 :

Swiftech 220-X on top ($140) and Swiftech 2 x 120mm rad on bottom ($57).
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/25187/ex-wat-327/Swif...
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/13545/ex-rad-262/Swif...

2 x GPU Blocks - Expect to spend $140 per block bw/ backplate

EK MSI Gaming Water Block is coming Soon
EK EVGA FTW Water Block is coming Soon
EK Gigabyte G1 Water Block is coming Soon
EK Asus Strix Water Block is coming Soon

So with 4 x 120 you'd be good for 240 watts but you could pick up 13 watts per 120 w/ fans in push pull....dount ya can install the 4th fan behind the pump so 3 x 13 would give ya another ~40 for 280 watts

Now if ya switched cases to the Enthoo Pro (save a pound), you could do a 2 x 140mm rad on top and you'd get a 2nd fan controller Now you'd have one for case fans and one for rad fans).

That would be with just push fans

82 x 2 + 60 x 2 = 284 watts

Adding 2 x 13 for the bottom fans and 1 x 17 for the top fans adds 43 watts or 327 watt. That's what I would do .... Enthoo Pro with H240-X on top and 240 rad on bottom.....284 watts of cooling should be fine.

NOTE:

I used the alphacool calculator.... shuda used the Swiftech one, you can d/l that and I expect won't change by more than 20 watts or so.

You'll need (2) G1/4 barb fittings for each added (2 per GPU block, 2 for rad),4 clamps, some black PVC 3/8" tubing and some extra coolant .. maybe $35 - $50.

Option 2 is all custom loop but thats a lot more complicated. in short ....

I'd go 3 x 140mm on top with the Phanteks case and maybe a 240 on bottom or front.

Alphacool XT45-420 on top / ST30-120 on front or UT60-240 on bottom

Swiftech MCP / D5 pump

EK 150mm reservoir (have to check fit)

Then the fittings.





As for the RAM order I simply went to partpicker and listed by Kits .... scrolled down to 2 x 8GB and did "find in page" for "2133" .... last one is the best buy methinks








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October 6, 2014 8:54:16 AM

Are the radiator fans being controlled based on motherboard temperature or cpu temperature or gpu temperature or at full speed at all times? I have no idea how it is controlled and if there is any way to make it full auto (eg if gpu, cpu or system temps are raising fan speed increases by itself)?
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 6, 2014 9:59:32 AM

You can do it any way you want. If water cooling than a MoBo I'd suggest is the Maximus VII Formula .... aka M7F. It has a built in water block. It has two PWM CPU Fan Headers which you can use for your pump, and IIRC, six PWM / DC CHA headers. FanXpert3 software will control each channel individually. CPU headers are selectable in BIOS for 3 pin DC or 4 pin PWM operation. Similarly, the CHA fans can be selected same way and you can also select what temperature controls them ....

CPU
MoBo
VRM
Temp Sensor (installed where you want)


Download the M7F manual for detailed explanation.
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October 6, 2014 12:11:14 PM

JackNaylorPE said:
You can do it any way you want. If water cooling than a MoBo I'd suggest is the Maximus VII Formula .... aka M7F. It has a built in water block. It has two PWM CPU Fan Headers which you can use for your pump, and IIRC, six PWM / DC CHA headers. FanXpert3 software will control each channel individually. CPU headers are selectable in BIOS for 3 pin DC or 4 pin PWM operation. Similarly, the CHA fans can be selected same way and you can also select what temperature controls them ....

CPU
MoBo
VRM
Temp Sensor (installed where you want)


Download the M7F manual for detailed explanation.


But what options do I have going with VII Hero and is there any way to control fan speed based on GPU as well as CPU temp? I'm looking for a simple cost effective option if there is one.

BTW, I have chosen 750D case over 450D so I have extra room for the loop. Also looking at 760T as an option.
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a c 248 4 Gaming
October 11, 2014 1:34:06 PM

The Asus M7F is the lowest cost MoBos I am comfortable recommending. Not that there is anything wrong with the Hero, just that you can get the same thing in the MSI GD65 for $40 less. But for a WC build, the M7F makes much more sense.

Again, the features available in the Hero are very similar up and down the RoG line and you do things the 95% the same way as I have described in last 2 posts. Both have FanXpert3 but if you want to see exactly how many headers are specifics for the M7H, I'd suggest downloading the M7H manual.

As for the cases, I can't offer much help there ... tho I was a frequent user of the 750D and 500R in the past, I don't see Corsair competing very well with the Phanteks line


$90 - $110: Phanteks Enthoo Pro (Case of the Year 2014) - No window is $90, Black w/ window is $100 / White is $110 - Great air cooling or entry water cooling build w/ built in fan control, pump and reservoir mounts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guBAl6g8BlY


$150 - $160: Phanteks Enthoo Luxe (Just released few days ago) - Black is $150 / White is $150 - Great air cooling or mid level water cooling build w/ built in fan control, pump and reservoir mounts and RGB LED control system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkRJsjuvQVY

$220: Phanteks Enthoo Primo (Case of the Year 2013) - Black is $220 / White is $220 - Great air cooling and superb water cooling build w/ built in fan control, pump and reservoir mounts and LED switch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU1yMvkdsyY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ppwqUNIppY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1RzXMZ8BNI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIpoC65bpX4

? : Enthoo Evolv (not yet released)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3m2DQmmTX4

? : Enthoo Mini XL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1nPVLuWFNo
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