Is ASUS a reliable company for GPU's?

One of the best, right up there with MSI, or EVGA (minus the 970 and 980, EVGA had issues this time around)

They had an engineering issue that resulted in a misaligned cooler on their cards, resulting in 2/3 heatpipe contact with the GPU die creating higher temps, and louder fans.

Asus is right up there at the top, both on the nVidia and AMD GPUs and very high quality

Asus owned the quality crown with the 6xx series of nVidia cards but has since slipped precipitously. Throughout the 7xx series Asus consistently had the lowest clocked card from the Big 4. The quality of GFX cards in recent times (7xx and 9xx) has been decidedly in MSI's favor. Check Techpowerup reviews for the 780 Ti and the MSI scored the highest rating (9.9), same for the 780..... same for 770.....Bit-Techs very detailed 970reviews brought the reasons to bear with a detailed analysis of the components used for chokes, capacitors and power delivery and how they are cooled.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2014/09/19/nvidia-geforce-gtx-970-review/1

Again, while the Classified card is a great example of quality, the EVGA SC series remains the least desirable of the bunch with a defective cooling design and componentry that is well below what is employed by the competition. But this has been true since the 5xx series. Again, the reasons become quickly evident with a detailed reading of the bit tech review.

Items of concern on the Asus card

The [Asus Card's] base clock speed comes in at the lowest of all three: 1,114MHz, a 6 percent jump over reference that gives the card a boost clock of 1,253MHz. As with the other two contenders, the memory has been left alone at 7GHz. Hopefully the Strix GTX 970 can make up its clock speed deficiency when overclocking.

ASUS has also trimmed the standard 2 x 6-pin PCI-E power connections down to a single 8-pin one, which has an LED to tell you when your cable is correctly connected and working. This design makes cable management easier, but there's a chance it could negatively impact the card's overclocking potential.

On its custom PCB, ASUS places all eight Samsung memory chips on the front side, meaning that the backplate does not directly cool any of them. In fact, the chips are left without any contact plate or heatsink touching them, relying solely on air from the fans to cool them.

We also find a 6-phase power delivery system for the GPU, a 50 percent upgrade from stock specifications. It also uses ASUS's DIGI+ VRM controller for precise, digital voltages, as well as high quality Super Alloy Power components for buzz-free choke operation, longer capacitor lifespan and MOSFETs with a 30 percent higher voltage threshold than standard. Sadly, the memory has not been granted the same treatment. It is fed by a single phase found at the other side of the PCB, and this one does not use any special components.

The MOSFETs of the DIGI+ power phases are cooled by a small heatsink, but the VRM controller and the MOSFETs for the memory power phase are left, like the memory chips, to fend for themselves without direct cooling.

Click to expand...

EVGA falls a bot short of the Asus but here's where MSI shines:

The power delivery is the best of any here; it's a 6+2 design. Further, MSI uses its own improved components for both the GPU and the memory power phases. The components are referred to as Military Class 4 since they meet MIL-STD-810G regulations. Specifically, we find Hi-c CAP and Solid CAP type capacitors and Super Ferrite Chokes, which are designed to provide higher stability, lifespan and efficiency.

A miniature heatsink takes care of cooling the main GPU MOSFETs near the rear I/O, while a metal contact plate equipped with thermal pads is used to cool three of the four front PCB memory chips as well as the remaining power circuitry including the memory MOSFETs and the VR controllers.

Click to expand...

No, it's not better than the 780 Tix ..... comes up about 9% slower than the reference 780 Ti which in turn falls 8% behind the MSI 780 Ti .... so 18% behind total

Having a high pre OC on a card has nothing to do with the quality or design of the card, many of the manufacturers run through a tiered line of cards that are based on the binning of the chips to so they can offer a large variety of pre OCs (EVGA has been doing this for years. Asus generally releases a single non-reference model (based on their CU cooling design at a slight pre OC...they then often release higher end end cards like the Strix and Matrix models which normally stress more on noise and cooling. Also the lower clocks on the CU don't mean a whole lot as their cards all seem to OC very well, my Asus 780s do, and in fact I've heard Jacknaylorpe refer a number of times to get large OCs on his formula build with his Asus 780s in SLI

I'd be leary and am of all the new cards - all have gotten good 'reviews', but have to keep in mind the cards sent out for reviews are all hand picked, so reviewers are getting the best of the best, unless I just jump on something (occasionally) it nice to see a few user reviews, and that particular card has already had a few reviews from customers complaining of coil while:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127832

the Asus Strix model (initially anyway is looking a little better)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121899

I'm (at this point) looking to get the Asus 980 Strix, but am waiting for some real people reviews

Yep, should have no problem, I know I'm getting anxious to see them in action

Having a low factory OC is certainly an indicator of what the manufacturer thought the card was capable of doing based upon the componentry and design they provided. And, you failed to address the major point of the post being the differences in componentry and the differences and how each card is fabricated and cooled. Better power supply, more phases, better power delivery, better caps, better chokes, and better cooling of those components all lead to a card which performs better, performs quieter, takes more OC and lastly better survives the abuse we throw at it.

Why is it that you mentioned the 780s I used but conveniently left out the how and why I got those OCs ..... my cards are water cooled.... thereby eliminating much the the component deficiencies detailed in the bit-tech article. I added thermal pads, and TIM and water cooling to overcome many of these deficiencies. You also left out the fact that MSI retooled their 780 design with the Gaming series resulting in different construction between the 1st 780s and 2nd series. I bought my 780s when MSI had their 1st design out, Since the newer design surfaced, I have bought nothing but MSI.

The MSI Gaming series doesn't compete with the limited edition Matrix....MSI makes the Hawk and Lightning series in that arena. The DCII is the direct competitor to the Gaming series and the Strix has the DCII cooler... as for the claim is a higher end card then the DCII, you do realize that the 970 Strix manages a meager 2% improvement over the stock 970.... I'd hardly call that "hi end" .

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GTX_970_STRIX_OC/25.html

As very clearly detailed in the bit tech article, and which you conveniently failed to address despite it being the primary focus of the post you're responding to , MSI uses superior quality components ..... choke, caps and power delivery, etc and cools them better which is why MSI consistently outperforms Asus on air.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2014/09/19/nvidia-geforce-gtx-970-review/14

Here ....Asus comes in behind the MSI with MSI having better power supply, better power delivery, more power phases, better components, higher OC, more heat pipes, it has memory cooling Asus doesn't, it's shorter and has independent fan control

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_geforce_gtx_970_strix_review,26.html
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_geforce_gtx_970_gaming_review,26.html

Here Asus comes in last before and after overclocking again starting with 1114 Core / 1253 Boost / 7000 MHz memory to start and overclocking to 1264 / 1443 / 8002. MSI tops Asus again comes in last again starting with 1140 Core / 1279 Boost / 7000 MHz memory to start overclocking to 1325 / 1501 / 8002.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GTX_780_Ti_Direct_Cu_II_OC/29.html
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_780_Ti_Gaming/29.html

Here again , MSI scores a 9.9 rating, overclocks to 1090 MHz Core and 1970 MHz on memory, reaches 153.4 fps in BF3 all while keeping noise at 30 dbA. Asus trails behind across the board with a 9.4 rating, 1070 MHz / 1910 MHz, 152.6 fps and is almost twice as loud at 39 dbA.

The quality of the card depends upon the components it's made from. Since the Asus 670 DCII Top, Asus has not produced a winner. MSI clearly is using better components and is cooling them better; this is not disputable.

An 8 pin connector is not equal to 8 + 6 pin
A 6 + 1 design does not equal a 6 + 1 design
Two 100 mm independently controlled fans using multiple thermal sensors is better than two 92mm with 1 sensor
Having thermal pads / plate on PCB memory is better than not having them
Having thermal pads / plate on memory MOFSETS is better than not having them
Having direct memory cooling is better than not having it

As a result of the above, the MSI card is able to run cooler and with more stability leading to higher overclocks, quieter performance and longer expected longevity. The temp measurements are real and the overclocking results have been published. It's a clear win across the board. To borrow aline from "A Knight's Tale", the Asus card "has been weighed, it has been measured, and it has been found wanting." Placing a logo on it that matches your avatar won't change the physical construction of the respective boards.

Yes Jack, we all know you are a great user of google and reading on the internet, you read a review or two on the 970 MSI and it's God's gift to the world. Also noted you ignored the brief explanation of reviews and of issue of coil while. Expected you jump all over that (which no doubt you would have if you had gone beyond a review or two and kept up with things, and that it notable that some of the other 970s are experienced same - especially EVGA. And of course you simply ignore all the issues the MSI has been having with their fans which is all over the net and has been since day 1

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-2311513/evga-msi-gigabyte-asus-gtx-970/page-3.html

https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=183618.0

Many others, check with google, it's your friend....This has long been a problem, when so many think anything they see on the net is Gospel, reminds me of that commercial with the lady saying "it has to be true, they can't put it on the internet if it isn't true"

Well yes I am an educated person and like most I rely on the work of others to gain knowledge.... I use the text books and online guides, standards and codes to design plants, buildings and bridges and the validity of those sources is accepted by the people who review and approve our work before construction. . The key in the use of outside resources is to be able to judge the validity of them and how they are peer reviewed as well as the reputation as to those doing the testing. Today, all the design guidelines, codes and standards are on line. Is the NYC Building Code online version somehow different from the print version ?

Your preference for unsupported posts, where authors hide behind a screen name, defies logic. An author who performs the test, tears down the card, identifies the components and puts it out there for peer review *with his name on it* will draw my interest. When the results are repeated over and over and over again, and none of the comments challenge them, you can look at that source with a reasonable level of certainty. Yes, I put more faith in that than anonymous posters who claim that they had this happen once and though they haven't used the product in 6 years know another unnamed guy who did. That's the image behind your state farm commercial reference.

The belief that anonymous postings are somehow valid enough, but careful testing and analysis where the author "signs his work" and subjects it to peer review is a mindset that I can not fathom. You didn't bother apparently to read past the 1st page of your own reference to see if the problem is being addressed.... did you read the part in "your reference" where the same problems have been reported on the Asus forums ? Did you bother to read that many users solved the problem themselves ?

Yes, the state farm commercial is a a great example.... but what is the guy referring to ? Is he referring to the published sites that he's uploading his accident report to ? Is he referring to the online version of the NY Times ? Is he referring to the financial stock quotes ? No, they are referring to the anonymous posts where people can just rant on and on without any documentation.

MSI has determined several causes of the problem...... removal of the sticker on the fan has solved the problem for many but the most logical explanation is that when the fan starts off, the voltage is insufficient to kick start the fan and getting it going. Anyone who has ever used speed control on a case fan is familiar with this issue. MSI is experiencing a birthing issue affecting a small % of users after introducing a new feature. This is not an uncommon occurrence, one of the reasons I stay off the bleeding edge and wait for the 2nd or 3rd stepping on all new products. Just as I did with the Asus Z87 boards and missed the externals don't wake from sleep problem. It's a nice step for Asus to add the fan cut off feature that MSI introduced in 2008. Now MSI has expanded upon that feature introducing separate control for both fans and needs to iron out some birthing issues for the new feature.

It would appear that when fine tuning the BIOS, MSI engineers working with a "broken in" model, set the start up voltage by measuring what it took to kick start the fan. With some of the newer cards, the new" fan bearings are a bit tight and many users have since come back and stated that after running the fans at 100% for a day, the problem has disappeared. But, you didn't bother to refer to that page in you reference either. Others found removal of the sticker resolved the problem.

MSI are no longer including the stickers and announced a BIOS fix was being developed for those who still have the problem. Alternately, they have offered to replace any cards still exhibiting the problem. So these problems are being addressed and will be fixed. Is Asus adding phases to their power delivery, are they adding cooling measures to their memory and other PCB components, are they going to change out the chokes and caps ?

Are you suggesting that birthing problems with a new release is somehow unique to MSI :

-Asus Z87 C1 boards had an issue with external drives not waking up after puter resumed from sleep .... response, sorry, buy our C2 stepping if you have this problem.

Asus Z87 / Z97 boards BIOS clock freeze problem identified in dozens of dozens of threads on the RoG forums, newegg customer reviews ..... still not addressed by Asus after 13 months, they announced a BIOS fix in June, still not released and now TS denies such was ever planned (despite the announcement still on the forums).

So why is MSI's response to their customers offering to swap any problem cards somehow bad, and yet you're willing to turn a blind eye here here ? .... oh yes, it has an Asus logo on it. When you are enough of a "fan" to use the Asus logo as your avatar, it's very hard to look at your posts without the assumption of bias. Especially when in response to a list of reasons why one product is better and you don't address a single point on that list.

The habit of making assumptions without any attempt at verification which you've applied to both the product and the poster (i.e. I don't use google). Shooting blindly at the messenger doesn't make up for the fact that you didn't address a single fact contained in the post. Here again is the challenge, can you address any of the facts presented:

1. Will an 8 pin connector provide as much current as a 8 + 6 pin ? Why has no one else done this ?

2. Is a 6 + 1 design the equal of a 6 + 2 design ?

3. Will two 100 mm independently controlled fans using multiple thermal sensors produce more air and control it better than two 92mm with 1 sensor ?

4. Is having thermal pads / plate on PCB memory better than not having them ?

5. Is having thermal pads / plate on memory MOFSETS is better than not having them ?

6. Is having direct memory cooling better than not having it ?

7. Is 4 heat pipes better than 3 ?

8. Is 30 dbA quieter than 39 dbA ?

9. What % of reviews have shown an Asus GFX card overclock better than the MSI card since the 670 series ?

These are all yes / no questions verifiable not only by the tear down report but the pictures. If you want to argue successfully that the Asus cards don't come up short, those questions will have to be addressed. "It must be good, it has an Asus Logo on it" don't cut it and doesn't stand up to the any recognized method of research.

Quality is dependent on what components are used not what logo is on it. When reviews from respected sites are mixed, it becomes a tough choice and is subject to reasonable discussion of pluses and minuses. When the majority of sites all come to the same conclusion and back it up with well written and logical reasoning, component lists and pictures, that's going to get attention.

I'm all ears if you want to address the component selections and why you think they are as good or better. Yes, silicon lottery can result in varying results but when you go thru the 7xx series, the 780 Ti and the 9xx series w/o a single win, it's time to recognize things have changed. And when you see a tear down like the bit tech article, and see the cheaper components and see the lack of cooling on those components, the reasons why are obvious and entirely expected.

I use Asus products, I am just not emotionally invested in them as would a sports fan who continues to claim their team is best while the team's players are playing golf and the competition is in the playoffs. I used a lot of Asus 560 Tis ... superb card.....I used a lot of Asus 670 TOPs....superb card. I used a lot of Asus 780s .... very good card, ..... All were regarded as such in the reviews, scoring high ..... But since surpassed by MSI's version 2 of their 780 card and with everything since they have not done well as the componentry chosen explains why.

Odd the Asus cards were both rated better by users and outsold the MSI 780 2-1

9 questions, 0 answers.

As usual you make no sense, this happens all the time, if anyone disagrees with you, you start writing books, all of your 'questions' have nothing to do with what I've said. I haven't attacked MSIs design, although anyone knows that the best looking design in the world is only as good as it's execution, one can have a design that appears fantastic, but doesn't result in real world results, and before you start chapter 4 or whatever, I'm not saying that about MSIs cards. But simply that as an engineer that's something you should be familiar with

So in your view, comparing actual component lists, design and fabrication differences between 2 products "makes no sense" and all we should rely on is what logo is on it to judge quality. As an engineer, design and fabrication differnces is in fact something I am very familiar with. When I write a spec for say a pump, I detail the materials of construction, design criteria, hydraulic and electric efficiencies and other relevant criteria. Invariably at bid time, there's always one or more guys with poorer materials, poorer design , lower hydraulic efficiencies, lower electrical efficiencies who wants to be considered an equal. So we go thru the motions ...

Does it have stainless steel wetted parts ? .... No, cast iron
Does it have tungsten carbide wear rings ? .... No, ceramic
Does it spin at less than 1750 rpm ? .... No, 3450
Does it use an air cooled motor ? .... No, it's oil cooled
Does it have a hydraulic efficiency > 65% .... no, 45%
Does it have an electrical efficiency above 90% ?, No, 88%

But my pump is made by ABC company and historically made good stuff .... judging by your previous answers, not anymore, certainly not good enough to meet you have previously used out stuff for 20 years...... Your company used to make a pump like that, and if it still did, I'd take it ..... but for whatever reason, you no longer does so.

I'm not interested in looks, I am not interested in logos. Ignoring stark differences in quality of components used and the design of the card itself is what makes no sense. If you want to argue why the Asus card is better give us just one single facet of it's design and construction that makes it better....just one ! Numerous posts and not a single fact. I gave you a whole list of real differences in the design, you haven't addressed a single one of them.

In the real world, every one of those design criteria are significant. The use of those kinds of material upgrades is what once separated Asus from the pack and gave Asus it's reputation. I am disappointed that they no longer see fit to provide us with such niceties. If you are not going to provide direct cooling for your PCB components, you can not expect the cards to perform on the same level as those that do. Given the absence of those component upgrades, we can not expect the cards to perform on the same level as cards that do.... and the actual test results, in review after review after review, confirm what the component list tells us should be expected.

For example, when Asus uses Super Ferrite chokes in their Higher End MoBos, it certainly makes a big deal about how important they are in their advertising .... So why are they a "big deal" when Asus uses them, and unimportant when they don't ? .... yes, of course... they have the right logo and that makes all the difference.

As expected, chapter 4, your not worth wasting time on, if I want info from the web I can find the good info myself...and your last paragraph says it all, you are constantly harping about MSI and military grade and other, so why is it so good when they use it but not others. Simply basing all on something you read doesn't make it gospel, that's a big reason I pick things up and see for myself, and will be looking at a MSI 970 later this week in fact, and while looking at a single card won't be a full decision maker, it will provide some ideas

He doesn't like anybody that disagrees with what he's read

Still no facts, still no answers, still not one single iota of support for your position.... attacking the messenger yet again (#1 on the hit parade of dishonest debate tactics) rather than the facts presented.

Robert's Rules or Order state that:

" It is not the man, but the measure, that is the subject of debate.”

Every published resource reports the same thing but they all wrong; the only thing real that matters is what happens when you pick it up. Except you still can't come up with a single iota of support for your position. You can view the pics, both MoBos are depicted. Or are you suggesting the photos faked and all the articles are lies ?

I welcome opposing viewpoints. But an argument is won or lost on facts so why not produce just one ? I made 9 specific points ..... disagree all you want to in order to disagree you will have to actually provide counter point to those facts .

When debating a point, ......

There are two intellectually-honest debate tactics:

1. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts
2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic

Click to expand...

You have yet to address either. Since you are good at searching web, search on "intellectually dishonest debate tactics". There's still a few you haven't employed yet.



Who suggested such a thing ? MIL Spec is used by others. Let me point out another little company that uses it ... maybe you heard of it ..... it's called Asus. They tend to brag about it a lot too and apparently they think enuff of MIL Spec to slap a 5 year warranty on them. Maybe if you "read more" you'd know about these things. I use the Sabertooth MoBos, WS MoBos, M6F MoBos..... I use a lot of Asus products ... I have 7 Asus GFX cards in boxes here. All are from "back in the day", when they held the performance crown and they did use better components, ..... but when they don't include those niceties in an effort to save costs, and others do, and do it at a lower price, I'll make my selection by the design and ignore the logo.

Just because Asus makes a great product in some lines, doesn't mean that everything else is built the same way. Corsair uses great components in the HX and AXi lines, that doesn't make the CX series good PSUs cause they have the same logo.

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/SABERTOOTH_Z97_MARK_1/

TUF Components [Alloy Choke, Cap. & MOSFET; Certified by Military-standard] - Certified for Tough Duty

Click to expand...

http://rog.asus.com/317622014/asus-tuf-motherboards/asus-unveils-tuf-sabertooth-z97-and-gryphon-z97-motherboards/

.....the TUF Z97 boards pack upgrades of the usual features: Thermal Armor, Fortifier, Dust Defenders, mil-spec components and server testing methods to ensure it’ll be 24/7 stable.

Click to expand...

Don't have a bad thing to say about any of those. However, the Strix does not have super ferrite chokes, the Strix is not Mil Spec, ....and those are two things of the many mentioned that differentiate the two cards. In simple words....

-Super ferrite chokes / mil spec, premium capacitors, direct cooling, more power phases, more heat pipes .... matters no matter whose logo is on it. The MSI has em, the Asus don't.

Hmmm. chapter 5 a bit droll, keep reading you might find something exciting