Feedback for Mini ITX build

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faelan

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I mostly play console games, but recently I've been playing World of Warcraft on my 13 inch macbook pro from college. I don't mind the graphics too much, but would love a higher framerate. I would definitely consider playing more pc games if I had a pc.

What did I go overboard on and what did I skimp on?
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/WzcHnQ

For reference, my current macbook has 2x4gb 1333 MHz ram, an i7 processor, and the wonderful Intel HD 3000.
 
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We are just assuming he wants to ONLY EVER play WoW. What if he decides "oh hey, Watchdogs looks fun." or "Maybe I want to try the new Farcry 4". in that case the 970 will be IMMENSLY better than the 760. In those games the 760 will run at a mix of medium and high (mostly high) while the 970 locks the games at 60fps at Ultra and allow you to have some AA and things like that.

If we look at a gtx760 equivalent from 4 years ago, we get the gtx460. A great card in its time. If you have a 460 now it only is about as powerful as a gt740 which will run Wow comfortably at LOW settings at 1080p 60 fps. But if you had bought a gtx580 instead of the 460 (same difference as 760 to 970) you would still be playing WoW on high/max and other games...
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DonkeyOatie

DonkeyOatie

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Hi.

CPU: but you could upgrade to a 4690 by leaving out cooler.
Cooler, probably not needed.
Motherboard: You are not overclocking so you could move down to a H97 and save $70+
Memory: Can't use memory that fast effectively, but the deal is good, so OK
SSD: A Crucial MX100 is nearly as good and costs about $110.
HDD: I'd want one (1TB for about $55) from money saved on motherboard
GPU: Fine
Power supply: You need one, and a GOOD one tier 1 or 2 from this list using money saved from motherboard and SSD.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-1804779/power-supply-unit-tier-list.html
Seasonic and XFX are two good brands.
Case: To your taste.

Operating system?


 
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faelan

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I was thinking Windows 8.1 for an OS. I'll have to spend some time looking at the PSU options. Thanks for the tip on the motherboard!

I don't foresee needing more than 250 gb of storage, would you recommend sticking with a 250 SSD or dropping to a 120 SSD and getting a large HDD?
 
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g-unit1111

g-unit1111

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SSD: A Crucial MX100 is nearly as good and costs about $110.
Click to expand...

Crucial MX100 is decent, Samsung 840 Evo or 850 Pro is better.

Do I need an optical drive? I never use CDs/DVDs, but can I install an OS another way?
Click to expand...

Actually you don't really need a CD/DVD drive anymore. You can use an external one or a USB drive to install an OS. That original build you can definitely get way better for $1K for a mATX build. Try this:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4690K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($234.99 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock Z97M-ITX/AC Mini ITX LGA1150 Motherboard ($103.38 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-2400 Memory ($84.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 120GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($88.42 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($53.99 @ Amazon)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB Superclocked ACX Video Card ($339.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Aerocool DS-Cube Blue MicroATX Mid Tower Case ($122.64 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: SeaSonic 750W 80+ Gold Certified ATX Power Supply ($79.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $1108.39
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-08 23:59 EDT-0400
 
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BlueJays92-93

BlueJays92-93

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It looks pretty good to me but just two things. If most of what you play is warcraft and you don't mind graphics too much then don't you think a GTX 970 is a bit excessive? I currently have a 760 and it does everything I demand of it (at it considerably cheeper than a brand new 970). Also, have you made sure that the cooler you picked for your CPU will fit in the case? I personally never checked but I do know the 212 EVO isn't a slim cooler and taller coolers and ITX cases usually don't go well together. Also, if you're not overclocking do you need an aftermarket cooler? Could save $30 there if you don't deem it necessary. Hope this gives you some stuff to consider.
 
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faelan

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That's awesome that I don't need an optical drive. I will definitely nix the after market fan since I won't be overclocking.

I also agree that the 970 seems like overkill for my needs. BlueJays what would you buy if you were getting a graphics card today?

I don't see many PSU options for mini-itx. Since I'm already leaning towards the BitFenix Prodigy I might just go for the Prodigy M since it can handle micro-atx.
 
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mdocod

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PSU:

Stock clocked GTX970 and i5 Haswell will have a peak power dissipation of under 300W all system components accounted for in a traditional SSD+mechy drive configuration.

The "estimated" wattage calculated by online power calculators assumes achieving peak dissipation on every component in the system simultaneously, which is not possible in realty (trust me, I have tried, extensively, and measured the results of trying). For reasons that I will not get into at this time, it is not possible to get every component in a system running at peak dissipation at the same time.

If someone made a modern topology 350W PSU with the proper connections, that would suffice for this system, as such, nobody does. PSUs with the connectivity needed for GPUs in this class and above starts at 450W. Lots of overhead there actually. Oh, and for the record, a well made 450W PSU is more than sufficient for ANY STOCK CLOCKED single GPU 1150 socket system with a traditional drive configuration.

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Case:

If the goal of this build is to use the Prodigy case for its looks, or its novelty, or whatever, that is fine, however, if the goal is to do an ITX build, the prodigy is anything but, in fact, it is larger than many microATX cases. Granted, the ITX version of the case will only hold an ITX board, so it is technically an ITX case, but the "ITX" concept ends at the mounting holes. Everything else about the Prodigy case is large, and as an owner of this case, I would not wish it on anyone. The cable management is aweful, the triangle of tradeoffs in the space vs flexibility and expansion vs cooling is awful. There are numerous cases that do more with less space IMO. Consider, the SilverStone Sugo SG10 for example. It's smaller than the prodigy, yet offers microATX board support, better cooling, and great cable management. Even the simple CoolerMaster N200 is a better case than the Prodigy for most builds.

If you truly want to do an ITX build, that is "ITX" both on the inside AND on the outside, look at Lian Li ITX cases like the.....

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.....Here's how to do an ITX gaming/WoW build:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1231 V3 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($248.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: MSI H97I AC Mini ITX LGA1150 Motherboard ($108.99 @ Mac Mall)
Memory: Mushkin Stealth 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($72.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial MX100 512GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($208.97 @ SuperBiiz)
Video Card: MSI GeForce GTX 760 2GB ITX Video Card ($201.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Lian-Li PC-TU100A Mini ITX Tower Case ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: Silverstone Strider Gold 450W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular SFX Power Supply ($89.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1031.89
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-09 02:45 EDT-0400

The E3 is thrown in because at this budget, there's really no reason not to. It adds about 5% to the build cost compared to an i5-4590, yet offers up to 25% higher execution performance in some workloads. The i5 would certainly work fine, but if you're going for novelty in an ITX build, might as well throw in the novelty of using a Xeon chip as well. The added execution throughput might be nice if you use the machine for transcoding or any other non-gaming productivity stuff.
 
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DonkeyOatie

DonkeyOatie

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The reason for changing to the MX100 was to keep the budget but find the money for a power supply and without seriously compromizing either quality or speed.

 
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DonkeyOatie

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For good efficiency and extended power supply life, a PSU should be operated, most of the time, around 50% of it's rated capacity. A car may have a 400HP engine, but it won't last as long if it is run at full power all the time.

If your estimate is 325W, then a reserve of 225W to 325W is good for the system and allows room for some upgrades.

If you are going with some sort of small ATX build, there is still money that can be saved with the motherboard, and you can use a H97 board since you are not overclocking.

I like the understated (usually) simplicity and good design and cooling of Silverstone cases myself

 
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mdocod

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Meant to point out earlier, that the performance advantages of drives like the Samsung Pro series show up in benchmarks that simulate unusual workloads, but do not show up as tangible in single client workloads like loading applications or booting an OS, at least not by margins worth bothering with.

When we line up a bunch of SSDs with large discrepancies in "benchmark" performance, and measure their boot speed and application launching speed on a single client machine, they all wind up performing about the same. I'm in agreement that the MX100 is probably the most logical buy for a single client system, especially when we can buy a 512GB MX100 for only $50 more than the Samsung Pro 256GB.

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Not true at all as not all PSUs are created equally. If you're buying a Raidmax or an Apevia PSU, yes, you should probably take whatever the peak power estimate for the machine and DOUBLE it. If you're buying a modern Seasonic or SuperFlower, there is no need to do this, as they have already engineered the necessary overhead into the design.

FYI: There are MANY engines designed to operate at peak power continuously without failure. See Marine, Commercial Transport, Agriculture, Earth Works, and Industrial applications. There are also MANY non-commercial vehicles with engines that can operate at near peak power continuously without premature failure.. For examples, see micro-buses, vans and motorhomes with poor power to weight ratios and oversized engine cooling. In fact, almost any vehicle designed to perform WORK can operate at near peak rated engine power continuously without issues.

If you are buying a "sedan engine" version of a PSU, yes, you should oversize the snot out of it because it can not be trusted to operate at its label rating continuously because the support system is not in place for that (cooling/librication/driveline etc). If you are buying the tractor engine version of a PSU, there's no need to oversize. Obviously if you put a trailer behind your taurus and try to pull the pass at full throttle you're asking for trouble, but if you buy a tractor and put the pedal to the floor you better believe you can plow at that peak power output all day long, all season long, this year, next year, and every year for the next 30 years before that engine is going to need an overhaul.

FURTHERMORE (back to computers): Under normal single client workloads (not mining, or server-farm/render-farm/distributed computing etc), the peak power dissipation is not anticipated to be a sustained under any normal circumstance. Gaming workloads pull 50-80% of peak power dissipation on average. That "~300W" estimate for peak power dissipation with a GTX970+i5 really translates to ~200W averages while gaming, and ~40W or less while idle. Even an i5+R9 290 will only manage ~250-300W average power dissipation while gaming, which aligns very nicely with the efficiency curves on the better 450W units out there. The Peak power dissipation of an i5+R9 290 would be ~400W, which still leaves us ample overhead with a well made 450W unit, since those well made options from OEMs like Seasonic, SuperFlower, and ATNG, are capable of holding well inside ATX specs all the way out to ~550W where the over-current protection stops the show with everything well within safe operating margins.

If you want to build a 450HP tractor engine that can last 15,000 hours at peak output, you design a 900HP engine, and then govern it and label it a 450HP engine. Same sort of practice applies to building PSUs. There are HUGE differences in component sizing and quality and resistance characteristics from cheapo to high end PSUs with the same label rating. If you size and buy your PSU based on wattage ratings taken at face value then you may as well be using a ford taurus to pull a loaded trailer through a mountain pass.

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A commercial application of an i5 + GTX780 powered by an SFX 450W PSU: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Steam+Machine+Teardown/20473
 
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faelan

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You've all been an enormous help and I've learned a lot literally in just the past day!

The primary reason I am considering the Prodigy M is because it's unique (I'd get the blue one) and will stand out when I've completed the project. I've seen a few bad reviews about how difficult it is to fit things inside and that it feels cheap.

Are there other unique cases out there that are better? If not, is the tradeoff between quality and unique style worth ditching BitFenix?

For my goals would it be better to get the Prodigy M or the Prodigy? The Prodigy has better reviews, but requires use of a mini-itx (instead of micro-atx) motherboard. Is that truly a drawback? I do not plan on using multiple graphics cards.

Will the 2133 MHz I selected work on the Asus H97 mini-itx & mini-atx motherboards? The Asus site says the max is 1600 MHz.
 
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mdocod

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Unless you're buying a Z97 board with a "K" chip, there's not much reason to buy memory faster than ~1600-8-8-8 as most non-Z boards do not support multipliers higher than this. (varies by board, some manufactures have "broken" the rules so to speak and unlocked memory overclocked on B/H series boards).

If you like the prodigy blue, go for it.
 
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g-unit1111

g-unit1111

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I'm personally not a fan of the cheaper SSDs like the Crucial MX100, Kingston SSDNow, etc etc. You can get way better SSDs for not much more money like the Samsung 840 Evo or OCZ Vertex 460, both of which use higher quality NAND than the cheaper drives.
 
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logainofhades

logainofhades

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Just giving you another mini-itx option.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4440 3.1GHz Quad-Core Processor ($175.49 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock H97M-ITX/AC Mini ITX LGA1150 Motherboard ($89.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Mushkin Stealth 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($65.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial MX100 256GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($109.99 @ Micro Center)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 970 4GB STRIX Video Card ($349.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Cooler Master Elite 130 Mini ITX Tower Case ($39.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: XFX XTR 550W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($69.99 @ NCIX US)
Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($13.99 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 8.1 - 64-bit (OEM) (64-bit) ($90.26 @ OutletPC)
Total: $1005.68
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-09 12:30 EDT-0400
 
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DonkeyOatie

DonkeyOatie

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Speaking from my experience in motorsport, where I competed at the national level, running at full power all the time definitely reduces the life of the engine.

I realize that my comments are not applicable to many other areas where power supplies ARE built to run continuously, but in the general cases on this board and using the power supplies that many posters have, and given many supplies that they are planning to buy, my words have value and meaning, and they allow for overhead for expansion too.

You response shows why good, well designed, and robust power supplies should be used all the time.
 
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