Please help me clear up some confusion

Ezephkiel · Jan 16, 2015

Hi all.

I am currently in the process of looking for a new gaming PC after not having a desktop for a few years now. (too many grand strategy games killed my old one and my laptop has started to feel their punishment too!).

I have not got any experience in building a PC from scratch and have been looking at prebuilt bundles but am getting confused by the myriad of choices which I don't fully understand.

So far these from Scan are looking tempting:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/scan-3xs-amd-vision-premium-amd-fx-8350-8gb-corsair-vengeance-3gb-xfx-r7-280-2tb-hdd-w-o-os
Chassis - Corsair Carbide SPEC-01 with red LEDs
Power Supply - Corsair 600W XS600M Semi-Modular
Motherboard - Asus M5A97 R2.0, AMD 970 Chipset
Processor - AMD FX 8350 Eight Core, 4GHz
Memory - 8GB Corsair Vengeance Pro 2133MHz RAM
Graphics Card - 3GB XFX Radeon R9 280 with 1792 streams
System Drive - 2TB Seagate Barracuda 7200.14 HDD

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/scan-3xs-performance-gt-gaming-pc-intel-pentium-g3258-8gb-corsair-vengeance-msi-gtx-760-1tb-hdd-win-
Chassis - Fractal Design Core 1000 Compact Gaming Case
Power Supply - Corsair 450W VS450
Motherboard - Gigabyte GA-Z97M-DS3H, Intel Z97 Chipset
Processor - Intel Pentium G3258, overclocked to 4.4GHz
CPU Cooler - Arctic Cooling Freezer 11i
Memory - 8GB Corsair Vengeance Pro 2133MHz RAM
Graphics Card - 2GB MSI GTX 760 Twin Frozr Gaming OC
System Drive - 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200rpm

Alas they are close in price and vary quite a lot which confuses me even more.

Ive tried researching what is best and have read how 8 cores is considered overkill for games. But more cores are being used in modern titles.
I have also plugged in similar or identical components in websites such as pc specialist and the price is alot higher there.

I do tend to play a full spectrum of games and would like to have the option for upgrading in the future and longevity. Mostly grand strategy and games that tend to use a lot of processing power(?) are the ones i play the most (HOI3, X3AP, Distant Worlds etc) but would like to play new titles as well.

Sorry for the wall of text and any help will be appreciated, even a rough guide at sites I should look at and read.

So in advance, thankyou for any advice!

Ez

sincreator · Jan 16, 2015

The first one has a better CPU and GPU, not to mention a motherboard and chip capable of a little overclocking. It also has a larger power supply, and more HDD space. It's a no brainer, get selection #1.

Ezephkiel · Jan 16, 2015

Thanks for the quick reply! Was kind of leaning toward that one. I was just mainly wanting to know if it looked like an ok system and would achieve what I wanted?

Ill probably have a look a bit more, but as a prebuilt system for that price range its the best I can find I think.

If i were to buy the components separately do you think it would be significantly cheaper than £650? (with the possibility of not working as I am pretty clueless on it.)

Thanks once again, will probably go ahead with this machine unless people point out anything wrong.

Ez

Eximo · Jan 16, 2015

But it is not very upgradeable. 970 chipset is not the top of the line, and even the 990FX chipset is now 6 years old. AMD hasn't released any truly new standard CPUs for a while. FX-8350 is basically the fastest AMD chip. It is comparable in performance to an i5 at stock settings. The 8 cores may become useful as more games start to utilize them.

The Intel build does use the latest consumer chipest Z97. That particular build comes with a pre-overclocked dual core processor. You can swap that out for a quad core i5-4690k or i7-4790k for maximum performance, either now, or later on. What I don't like with that build is a relatively small power supply paired with a decent sized video card.

Building your own is not difficult and can save a lot. You can also customize builds at scan.co.uk so you aren't limited by the pre-builds they offer.

By the by, those builds don't include Windows.

sincreator · Jan 16, 2015

I agree with what you are saying Eximo, but the first system should be fine as long as he intends to only run one video card. If he thinks that in the future he may want to SLI/Xfire then he should go for the second system. This will require more spending down the road though on a new CPU and power supply.

maddogfargo · Jan 16, 2015

On average, modern games are using more CPU cores now. So either AMD or Intel will be a good build. Look for 4+ cores for Intel (i5 or higher) and 6+ cores for AMD (FX 6xxx series or higher).

And FX 8350 is great for gaming. In most titles it will run as well or better than an i5. In multi GPU settings it scales better than the i5 and runs closer to an i7 in performance.

If you are going to stick with a single high end GPU, the 970 chipset is fine. You only need the 990fx for the PCIe lanes for Crossfire/SLI builds.

If you go Intel, I'd recommend a Devil's Canyon i5 4690k + single GPU or i7 4790k + dual GPU. Devil's Canyon fixed the thermal issues with Haswell.

Ezephkiel · Jan 16, 2015

I see. So would the Intel system be a more long term investment?

I tried the custom builds on their site (of which you cant customize these two, well the vision premium is listed on there but it has different specs and is more expensive.)

I noticed I can buy windows cheaper separately than the price it is listed on most of these custom sites, plus I would probably go for windows 7 out of personal preference.

I did toy with the idea of building a pc and starting with the most up to date motherboard I can get and slowly add more features, the games I play at the moment aren't particularly graphics intensive just big and complex.

The power issue you mention is also a concern as I think it was my old power supply going which fried my last computer.

I have read a lot of modern graphically intense games put more pressure on the gpu rather than the cpu, is this true? and would either of these be able to take any more powerful cards in the future? I am basically trying to get something that I wont have to replace in 2 -3 years,
My last pc (an old friend built it for me) could not play the newest releases very well about a year after I had it and had limited upgrade options.

Thanks for the insights, will have to have a bit more of a think about what i will do.

Ez

(man you guys reply fast! I will have a research on whats been said above, thanks)

sincreator · Jan 16, 2015

This system may be a better buy for you. You will have to buy a video card and operating system though.

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/scan-h15i-pre-built-pc-intel-core-i5-4460-processor-8gb-ddr3-ram-1tb-hdd-dvdrw-optical-drive-no-oper

£371.99 Inc VAT

• Intel Core i5 4460 "Haswell Refresh" 3.2Ghz Quad Core CPU with integrated Intel HD 4600 Graphics
• Asus H81M-Plus Motherboard
• 8GB Corsair 1600MHz RAM
• 1TB Seagate Barracuda, 7200rpm, 64MB Cache HDD
• LiteOne 24x DVD-RW
• Silverstone, mATX Case
• 500W ScanFX PSU

So add this: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/2gb-xfx-radeon-r9-270-boost-28nm-5600mhz-gddr5-gpu-900mhz-boost-925mhz-1280-streams-dp-dvi-hdmi-plus
£109.52 Inc VAT

and this: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/microsoft-windows-81-64bit-dvd-english-international-oem-the-most-popular-one!
£76.57 Inc VAT

Comes up to £558.08 total. Right around the two systems you linked first. You get a better CPU, and a slightly slower video card which you can upgrade when you like/need without having to worry about the CPU providing enough power.

Eximo · Jan 16, 2015

That's a good compromise solution. Though I still lean towards the Z97 chipset with an Intel build, that way you can replace the CPU with an overclocking one later if desired.

Ezephkiel · Jan 16, 2015

So would is the Gigabyte GA-Z97M-DS3H, Intel Z97 Chipset be more upgradeable in the long term? Is the Intel Core i5 4460 the best the Asus H81M-Plus can take.

The cheaper option does look tempting. I would most likely get windows 7 for £40 instead of 8. Unless there is any reason 8 is better for running games.

How does the 2GB MSI GTX 760 Twin Frozr Gaming OC fair as a card? The last card I had was a Gigabyte version of an amd card I think, Never had a Nvidia before.

This is where i get confused on what to focus on now and what to upgrade later.

Thanks for linking some other options though, been reading some articles on the various components (not that i understand most of it =) .

Ez

Eximo · Jan 16, 2015

That H81 motherboard supports the same range of CPUs, but not the same range of features. Overclocking isn't possible on this board (without BIOS reflashing at least) But it was not intended for overclocking. It won't have the same VRM (Power) capabilities as Z series boards.

Z97 will get you Crossfire and SLI potential, depending on the board, but also allow for overclocking of K series Intel chips.

H81 is from the previous generation as well. THere will be one more chip series for LGA1150 sockets. When the Broadwell chips come out it is highly likely you will need a H97 or Z97 board to use them. Since these have yet to come out, you can expect them to be available new from stores for the next several years at least.

Ezephkiel · Jan 17, 2015

Ok, so what im understanding is if i want something i can upgrade a bit later I want the Z97 chip. As graphics aren't a problem for me at the current time would something like this suit me better?

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=FS-004-OG&groupid=43&catid=2475
- Power Supply: Super Flower 450W 80+ Bronze Rated PSU
- CPU: Intel Core i5 4690 3.50GHz Haswell Quad Core CPU Turbo Speed 3.9GHz
- Motherboard: Gigabyte Z97-HD3 (Socket 1150) ATX Motherboard
- Cooler: Prolimatech CPU Cooler - RAM: 8GB DDR3 1600MHz Dual Channel Kit
- Graphics Card: Your choice of AMD Radeon DirectX 11 Graphics

Thanks

Ez

EDIT:

after reading some reviews on the Z97-HD3 it seems like its not to great and with no other options on that site ive found this instead which seems better and cheaper.

http://www.ukgamingcomputers.co.uk/orion-i5-pc-p-114.html
with these customizations:

Corsair CX 430W PSU
Intel Core i5 4460 3.2GHz Processor
Asus Z97-K
AMD Radeon R7-240 2GB
8GB Corsair XMS3 DDR3 1600MHz RAM
1gb HDD

@ £555

So its the same Graphics, slightly slower CPU, bigger HDD and better(?) Motherboard. I think.
I could then later on add a more powerful cpu/gpu, thats what i am hoping. Am i on the right track?

ohiou_grad_2006 · Jan 17, 2015

Of what you posted get the amd build. The other builds don't look as balanced. The 970 chipset won't matter if you only run a single card. I've got a slightly older 8 core overclocked to close to the speed of the 8350, and a Radeon 7950 which is basically last year's version of that r9 280, I play everything at high or even almost ultra settings.

Those Intel builds, like the last one with the r7 240, dude that card would be crippled in gaming vs the r9 280.

Check out the link comparing the i5 4460 and the amd fx 8350.

http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i5-4460-vs-AMD-FX-8350

Single core performance the 8350 is slightly worse but most games rely more on your video card anyway. Now if you go to the i5 4690k, then yes the votes wood swing toward the i5, but that's more money. If you get the i5, you get a better processor but your not going to have add good a gaming experience because your still running that r7 240 and a worse power supply you'll be replacing when you want to upgrade later.

If you go Intel get a z97 board and k series chip. For your case though, that amd system looks the most balanced. My system is similar and isn't the fastest but games great. When i ran 3dmark a week or 2 ago, it told me my system was faster than 57% of all systems tested. Gives you an idea. If you want more cpu power later you can always sell the board and cpu and buy something faster. But at least for a while pretty sure you won't be worried.

Ezephkiel · Jan 17, 2015

Interesting, although currently for the games I play and the long list of steam games I own which I have been unable to play on my old systems that would be overkill for now. I'm basically looking for some good bare bones components which I can add to later. Id be happy to replace a graphics card or CPU but starting again from the motherboard would be a bit daunting for me.

I have tweaked the previous set up a bit after reading a bunch more reviews:

Power Supply: Corsair CX500 500W (over the 450W, is this even necessary? maybe for future upgrades?)
Processor: Intel Core i5 4460 3.2Ghz [NEW] (I could replace this in the future if needed)
Processor Cooler: Stock Manufacturer Heatsink and fan
RAM: 8GB Corsair DDR3 XMS3 1600MHz
Motherboard: Gigabyte Z97X-SLI (the reviews were better than the z97k and i could later use the SLI)
Graphics card: AMD Radeon R7 250 2GB (apparently alot better than the 240 and would handle what i want to play at the moment)

Maybe if i want to play more modern titles in the future I could get a beefier card and cpu. Am I on the right track with what im trying to achieve?

Cheers

Ez

ohiou_grad_2006 · Jan 17, 2015

If you already have the cpu out you are really only taking a few more cables and screws. Do what you want, but I'm telling you video card wise, that r9 280 will school that r7 240 or 250 you are looking at.

Ezephkiel · Jan 17, 2015

I understand that, thanks for the advice, its just not of the highest concern to me at the moment as most of the games im playing are 5+ years old and just require more processing power and memory to run. Grand strategy games tend to slow down to a chug after more and more units are present.

Hopefully with what ive chosen I can do up in a year or two when I've exhausted all my old games and want to try something flashy and new.

Ill probably end up ordering that set up in a few days unless there's any glaring problems people point out.

So thanks everyone for your input and help.

Ez

sincreator · Jan 18, 2015

Ezephkiel :

Looks good to me. "If" you can stretch your budget, I do recommend at least a r9 270. If not, you can always get better down the road. Heck if you wanted, you may be able to get by on the HD4600 onboard since you will be playing older games. Then use that time to save for a really nice video card. If you could save to get at least a R9 290/GTX970 then your system would play all titles at 1080p with ease on Ultra settings. This way you won't waste the money having to buy the first card and then later a more expensive card. It will save you in the long run is what I'm trying to say.

Here are some bench marks using the HD4600 onboard. If you run lower settings it may just get you by: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7963/the-intel-haswell-refresh-review-core-i7-4790-i5-4690-and-i3-4360-tested/7

PS: I would try to substitute the CX500 for a XFX550w(for future upgrades). The XFX unit is usually pretty close in price and is far better quality. All of XFX's power supplies are made by Seasonic, and they are one of the very best PSU manufacturers.

ohiou_grad_2006 · Jan 18, 2015

If you can't get the r9 270, look at the r7 265. From what I've read that card is basically a rebranded radeon 7850. I just got rid of mine when I upgraded but it will do highish settings at 1080p. Should perform similar to the gtx 750ti.

Ezephkiel · Jan 18, 2015

Nice, thanks for continuing to put up with me

If the on board graphics could handle X3 Albion Prelude and maybe Napoleon Total War decently that sounds like a plan, I think i'll go with the above build but rework it as this then.

Corsair CX 430W PSU
Intel Core i5 4460 3.2GHz Processor
Gigabyte Z97X-SLI
8GB Corsair XMS3 DDR3 1600MHz RAM
Intel Integrated HD Graphics

They only offer Corsair PSU's so when I can save a bit more and feel the need I can upgrade this along with the graphics card later, which I can probably buy separately at a cheaper price. Would 550W be sufficient for all the cards you've mentioned and maybe a few more powerful ones? Never really understood what determines how much you need.

One last thing (I think im pretty close to what I want!), Ive read on the ukgc site reviews about how they have installed windows and optimized it. Is this worth the £70 when I can buy a copy for £35 and probably have a crack myself.

Thanks all for the advice, wonderful community you have here. Will call this solved tomorrow evening I think and place my order. Then start looking for some fancy graphics cards later

Ez

Ezephkiel · Jan 19, 2015

So after all that Ive decided to bite the bullet and build it myself. Done some shopping around via pc part picker and come up with this following your guys advice and with the aim to add a GPU later.

Case: Corsair Carbide 200R
Motherboard: Gigabyte Z97X-SLI
CPU: i5 4590
PSU: XFX ATX 550W
RAM: Kingston HyperX Beast 2x4gb 1600 DDR3
HD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda
+ 1 anti static bracelet for a pound

all for £445

Good quality stuff (I think) and a hell of alot cheaper than the £600 systems I looked at to start with.
Now to swat up on some videos of putting it together!

Thanks all for the advice, im sure ill be on here again in a week or two when Im struggling to get it running

Cheer!

Ez

sincreator · Jan 19, 2015

Looks good. So now you have an extra 100 to start your saving towards a decent video card that should last for a while.

PS: Don't forget your operating system.

Please help me clear up some confusion

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