Added top fans, temps are higher.

TranzTeKk

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EDIT: Seems like running my 144hz monitor on anything but 60hz makes my GPU go out of idle and raises the temps. Thanks for your help though. :) However, having 1 fan on the middle of the top blowing out, replacing the middle of my front fans blowing in, and replacing the back fan blowing out with the new fans actually helped the temps a bit better, but it looks like I'll be running 60hz outside of gaming for now.

Hey guys.

I just recently purchased 3 120mm fans by Cougar. They are the Hydro-Dynamic ones, not sure on the model number right at the moment.

The case I am using is the NZXT H440.

Anyway, I added them to the top case, where they are blowing air out. Ever since adding this and my new monitor, my GPU idle temps went up by almost 16 degrees and my CPU is running hotter as well, at 6 degrees higher than usual.

The case has 3 fans in the front intaking, and the back fan is blowing out of the case. I figured a monitor wouldn't do this so I can only assume it's the fans.

Anyone have any idea what I am doing wrong or any suggestions for how to set this up?

Also, would adding more ram make the computer hotter by chance? Thanks for all your help!
 
Solution
You need more intake than exhaust, always. Chances are you have too much exhaust since you added the fans, thus causing a negative pressure so air doesn't circulate properly.

In other words the fresh air is bypassing your gpu to some extent and getting sucked straight out.. causing a "hotspot" in the case.

Try turning down the exaust fans to low/medium and make sure the intake fans are going full speed. You may need to remove one of the exhaust fans entirely, or move the faster fans to the front.

There are alot of possibilities but I think you get my point.

TranzTeKk

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Positive, I did the basic paper test and the paper blows away instead of being sucked in, so I'm pretty positive that they are.
 

Adroid

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You need more intake than exhaust, always. Chances are you have too much exhaust since you added the fans, thus causing a negative pressure so air doesn't circulate properly.

In other words the fresh air is bypassing your gpu to some extent and getting sucked straight out.. causing a "hotspot" in the case.

Try turning down the exaust fans to low/medium and make sure the intake fans are going full speed. You may need to remove one of the exhaust fans entirely, or move the faster fans to the front.

There are alot of possibilities but I think you get my point.
 
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TranzTeKk

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I will do that and let you know.



I understand. The case is odd in the way that it has a cover with little vents on the top of the case, so I thought maybe it was the case itself.

However, I understand what you are saying. I'll try your suggestion and get back to you with the results.
 

TranzTeKk

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EDIT: Figured out the issue. Running my monitor at 144hz on the desktop makes my GPU go out of idle mode, causing higher temperatures. Thanks guys for your suggestions.

So I disconnected the fans. The CPU is running cooler but the GPU is actually hotter than it was before I disconnected them. Which is weird, since it was idling at 35 before I put the fans in.

With the fans in, it went up to 47 idle. After I disconnected the fans, it jumped up to 51 idle.

Not sure what's going on then.
 
Positive or negative pressure is meaningful from a cooling standpoint only in the respect that if you have a blower type card that pushes most of the air at the back, this air can get sucked right back in the back grille. Otherwise air turnover is air turnover.

Positive air pressure is significant also in the respect that decent cases have filters on the intake fans. So air coming in thru those openings filters out dust.

So lets look at your situation:

(3) 120mm + (1) 140mm fans blowing out with no resistance
(3) 120mm fans blowing in with intake filters providing resistance.

It's oft said that this situation results in more air exiting the case than coming in which is false. If air in didn't equal air out the case would implode / explode. But your are pulling air in from the rear grille and some of that likely is GFX card exhaust. However, your problem I believe is not related to positive / negative pressure.... but to the fact that there is no air getting to the GFX cards. Front air intake is short circuiting to the 3 exhaust fan and the GFC card is left recirculating the same air oiver and over.

What has likely happened here .... is your intake air is rapidly pulling all your fresh air in right up to the top of the case This is a weakness of the H440 case; most cases in this size / price range have bottom air intakes and / or also have the ability to mount fans on the back of the HD cage. The Phanteks Enthoo Luxe / Pro for example has mounts for 2 fans on the bottom and 2 and on the back of the HD cages.

I would take one of the top 3 fans out and try and mount it on the back of the HD cage. If ya MoBo has enough fan headers.....

A. Rear (1) and Top (2) Fans Blowing Out
B. Front (3) Fans Blowing In
C. Internal Fan (1) on HD cage blowing at GFX card

Then I'd set up the Fan curves such that Channels B runs about 75% - 80% of Channel A. Use a smoke test to see if exhaust from the GPU is being pulled inside or, if ya have access, a fog machine works great

http://www.amazon.com/Chauvet-Hurricane-700-Fog-Machine/dp/B001WMC7MO

Te other issue you may have is that with all the extra air flow.... have you checked to see if your dust filters are clogged ?






 

Adroid

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I think we agree that the fresh air is being sucked out too quickly, but positive static pressure is important for that reason. Having positive pressure does help circulate air, which in turn helps remove heat from the hot components. Having positive pressure doesn't doesn't mean implode/explode. Typically mechanical engineers design rooms or buildings with a slightly positive pressure to ensure circulation. Having equal intake/exhaust is improbable, it's usually slightly one way or the other (slight being the key word, or yes you may potentially have damage). In the case of computer cases, slight positive pressure is a good thing.
 
As a Practicing Engineer for almost 40 years and owner of an engineering consulting firm, I can tell you that we don't design buildings with significant heat sources "for slightly positive pressure to ensure circulation". We design buildings to get the heat out as quickly as possible and that is not by blowing it around the interior.

Most simple building ventilation (talking simple air exchange here not AC or heating) is exhaust, tho supply fans are sometimes provided to augment this. Things get a bit more complicated in muti-story buildings focusing on human habitation rather than heat mitigation, but a PC case is more akin to free standing restaurant, manufacturing facility, power plant or emergency generator room but even the house you live in operates on negative pressure.

- The most common example is that in every house with an attic fan, ventilation operates under negative pressure. Hot Air is sucked outta the house, pushed into the attic and out ..... fresh air comes in thru windows because of negative pressure and, if used, intake vents.

- Staying in the house for a moment, how does hot air get out of the kitchen ? Is there an intake fan blowing air in ? Now that would just blow all the hot air around the kitchen. Instead there is an exhaust fan which creates negative air pressure to quickly remove heat from the room.

Having positive pressure does help circulate air, which in turn helps remove heat from the hot components

- No it doesn't. Your building analogy falls apart here because where heat is being produced it's just the opposite. Commercial Kitchens are always designed with negative pressure because the important design criteria is to get heat (and fumes) out in order to keep the important components (the cooks) at a reasonable working temperature..... just like a PC case. Machinery rooms, power plants, engine rooms all have high side wall or roof exhaust ventilation. Blowing air in pushes the heat around the room and is counter productive. As the heat is exhausted fresh, cool air enters the space and cools the components .... as the hot air is vacated, cool air moves in to take its place.

Look at the product lines here:

http://www.greenheck.com/

Why are product lines are predominately exhaust if the primary means of building ventilation is positive pressure ?

- Instances of positive pressure design are confined spaces. I teach a training course on the subject and students oft suggest that "isn't it more important to get the hazardous gases out rather than get fresh air in ?. While getting the hazardous gases out is important, the primary concern that we have when entering a confined space is that there is oxygen available for the men entering the space. Exhausting gases out in no way insures that oxygen is getting into the work area.... blowing air in does. Another issue with regard to positive ventilation in homes is that warmer air contains more moisture and this is normally augmented by humidifiers especially in cold climates with long winters and long heating systems. With positive pressure ventilation that warm moist air escapes thru outlets cracks and seams until it reached the outside wall and condenses leading to mold and other problems.

This also has relevance again to your house where positive ventilation may be desired in a basement in areas where radon intrusion thru the foundation is an issue. There are other benefits to positive ventilation but as in the example above, the purpose here is to avoid radon exposure, nor increase circulation or exhaust heat.

I didn't say anything about positive or negative pressure causing implosions or explosions. I said " If air in didn't equal air out the case would implode / explode". Exhausting air from a storm drainage chamber with rotting leaves which create hazardous gases in now way insures the presence of oxygen as the exhausted gases could easily be replaced by more heavier than air gases from the connecting pipelines.

Say you have a 2 Cubic foot case ..... Ya have 2 fans pushing air in at the rate of 50 cfm. Ya have one fan pulling air out at 50 cfm. So someone measures and comes up with the following answers, pick which is feasible. (Assume 0 friction loss)

a) There is 100 cfm going out and 50 cfm going in
b) There is 100 cfm going in and 50 cfm going out
c) There is 100 cfm going out and 100 cfm going in

The answer is C.

-Under a), each minute there would be 50 more cfm going our than going in and the case would implode.
-Under b), each minute there would be 50 more cfm going in than going out and the case would explode
-Under c) .... there is 100 cfm going in thru the 2 fans, 50 cfm going out thru the 1 fan and 50 cfm going out the rear grille ... aka equilibrium.... for every unit of air that enters a case, a unit must leave the case. Think of a pressure tank with pressure relive valve set at 50 psi.... Pump air in ....48, 49 50 ..... you can keep putting more air in but the relief valve should open ... for every cfm in, 1 cfm goes out the valve .... equilibrium. Disable the valve and have what happens ? Air in must = Air out or Big Badaboom !

Another reason this method is beneficial in building design is that as workers and customers are in and out all day long and negative pressure inside the building helps keep doors closed tight. I am reminded of this each day as I'd enter the corner delicatessen for my morning coffee and you have to give the door a good tug to get the door to start opening and then once you create an opening the slight pressure differences immediately equalizes and the door swings freely.

However a case has much more air turnover than a typical building. Where a simple building with a significant heat source might have 6 to 30 air changes an hour. A PC with just 3 fans might have 30+ air changes a minute. Take a very simple Best Buy Type PC with no grilles or other openings except for one 120mm exhaust fan mount at rear top and and one intake fan at the bottom front.

Now take this fog machine

41uFbkUVVwL.jpg


And test the air flow with the fan in front as intake and then the fan in back as exhaust ..... the air flow pattern is identical. With one place to go in and one to go out "circulation" does not change one way or another. Been there, done that using that exact same fog machine.

You can create instances where either negative or positive will presents issues. But the positioning of the intakes and exhaust has far more influence on circulation patters than positive or negative pressure.

Take this room plan (looking Down)

AOOOOOOB
AOOOOOOB
OAAOOBBO
OOAA BBOO

The exterior wall is A-B

In scenario 1, we mount a 150 cfm fan at point A on the outside of the room blowing in..... the air velocity would move in a U pattern shown by the AB lettering, around the room and out the vent B. Now mount the same fan at point B as an exhaust fan and the same 150 cfm would enter thru A at the same velocity and continue thru the exact same pattern. A person inside that room would in no way be able to tell or measure a difference in circulation of air patterns.

Similarly, the air pattern within case is determined solely by the quantity of air entering / exiting each intake / exhaust port. Take my case..... I can mount 4 x 120mm fans on top and 4 x 120mm fans on bottom... using no filters since we have a whole house filter it's not needed and all other openings are sealed.

4 x 120mm on bottom each pushing 65 cfm or air in from the bottom..... since we must maintain equilibrium, that will push 4 x 65 cfm out the top

let's switch....

4 x 120mm on top each pulling 65 cfm or air out the top..... since we must maintain equilibrium, they must pull 4 x 65 cfm in at the bottom

No difference whatsoever.... the intake air is coming in at the same rate and at the same velocity whether it's pushed in or pulled in and with therefore have identical circulation patterns. Introduce from and reap vent openings and things get much more complicated but again, it's the positioning of the ports that matters.






 

Adroid

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I got bored with your solution about 1/4 way through the read. Glad you are an engineer. I still disagree with your evaluation. Proof is in the pudding, and slightly more intake always gives me cooler temps. Static pressure does matter.