Can I hook a UPS to a surge protector?

Heres the thing, you can plug a UPS into a surge protector but the theory is that if you have other things plugged into the surge protector the use of those other things may cause the battery to trip on due to the voltage drop. A perfect example of something that would cause a drop would be something like a Laser printer. So I can't say it wouldn't be wise, but that is why its advised against.

You can, but I think you'd be diminishing the UPS's capacity to protect from surges. A good UPS will have a proper fuse or breaker for protection (And components robust enough to handle the load until protection kicks in), and the PC should already be fully isolated.

> Basically my surge protector us rated at over 4000 joules. But my UPS is only
> rated at 1000 joules.

What will either do during a typically destructive surge - hundreds of thousands of joules? Well, advertising successfully convinces many that a millimeters gap in a fuse or circuit breaker will stop that three miles of sky could not. That a fuse or breaker that takes milliseconds or seconds to open will stop a surge that is done in microseconds. Notice others make recommendations without numbers.

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Often so 'dirty' as to be potentially harmful to motorized appliances. Due to more robust surge protection already inside electronics, that 'dirty' power is perfectly ideal for all electronics. Did they forget to mention superior protection already inside electronics? Did they also forget to mention that adjacent protectors can sometimes compromise that superior existing protection?

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

Facilities that cannot have damage do not use that UPS or power strip. Protection is required. So they spend tens or 100 times less money for another, well proven, and superior solution.

Your concern is that rare anomaly - maybe once every seven years - that can overwhelm protection already inside every appliance. That means hundreds of thousands of joules connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to and be harmlessly absorbed by single point earth ground. This superior solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Is the only solution found in facilities that cannot have damage (ie telco COs, commercial broadcasting stations, nuclear hardened communication facilities, munitions dumps, etc). And is what you need to protect both that UPS and that power strip protector.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Answer typically costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much is that UPS or power strip? Why are those profit margins so obscene? Most consumers (due to advertising) never learn how this stuff was done even 100 years ago.

What Westom is speaking of is a whole-home surge protector, and there are a few inaccuracies in his statements:

1) to get the level of protection he typically states, 50,000 amps, the cost is not anywhere near as low as $1 per appliance.
2) These devices use the same type of components found in circuit breakers and power strip connectors, some of which were only invented in 1970.
3) The manufacturers of these devices do not claim to provide lightning protection as Westom implies.

About his statements on UPS:

1) the inverter doesn't supply a true sine wave, this is true. Most are closer to a square wave in output on battery. There are some PSUs that don't like this, but a decent manufacturer will make a big note of this on their website and in the documentation provided with the power supply. If your PSU manufacturer says no to UPS, don't use it.
2) There are UPS systems that can provide sine wave power, but these are the size of a small truck and are used only as temporary solutions in datacenters until they can get the diesel generators going with stable output.
3) supplying dirty power that can damage motorized appliances - Any and all motors in a PC are not directly connected to the UPS output, they first go through the PDU. Running an AC or washing machine off a UPS is not a good idea for many other reasons. Also the inverter is isolated from the mains power, so any noise it creates will not back-fed into the mains.

RE #2 that is wrong (Sine wave UPS being the size of a truck)

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00429N192?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00

I have this which provides sine wave power, and is recommended for today's Active PFC power supplies. It was $118 at the time

I also have one of these connected to my server and network equipment:

http://smile.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-SMART1500RM2U-Rackmount-Outlets/dp/B0001AC2P0/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1437079330&sr=8-5&keywords=tripplite+2U

I got a better deal than what it sells for there, and mine is an older model but still sine wave, I've had it for about 6 or 7 years.

Both of these on battery switchover you don't even feel, when you have a non-sine wave UPS some PSU's (like Active PFC ones) can be too sensitive to the change to "dirty power" and flicker off and on rebooting the computer. You should contact and refer to the PSU manufacturer regarding this. For example EVGA who makes my 750 B2 which is Active PFC told me they think it would not have a problem switching to simulated sine wave battery power.

Both of the batteries came with a listing of stuff you shouldn't plug into them, I don't have the list with me, but appliances and laser printers I do remember off the top of my head.

It looks as if my info on UPS systems is a bit out of date, then.

First, do you only have ten appliances? Then yes, it will cost more. Even smoke detectors, bathroom GFCIs, clocks, door bell, etc either must have a plug-in surge protector. Or are protected from other and destructive surges by one 'whole house' protector. It costs about $1 per protected appliance - typically about $70 in Lowes and Home Depot. It is, without doubt, the best solution and a least expensive.

A 'whole house' proteoct does not have components found in circuit breakers et al. Since circuit breakers and fuses disconnect power AFTER damage has been done. To protect human life. 'Whole house' protector is for appliance protection - to protect appliances BEFORE a surge can do damage.

Furthermore, no protector does protection. Protection is always provided by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. No plug-in protector connects to that or will even discuss it. What makes the 'whole house' protector so effective? That low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. No earth ground (ie with all plug-in magic boxes) means no effective protection.

'Whole house' protectors have been the only and routine protection from lightning as even demonstrated in 1950s Bell System Technical Journal papers. And in early 1930s GE and Westinghouse papers. Transistors were the new technology. So the Bell System had to determine if protectors in all COs were capable of protecting transistors from direct lightning strikes. With minor corrections, the answer was yes. Because 'whole house' protection, properly earthed, is the only proven protection from direct lightning strikes and other destructive anomalies. That has not changed for over 100 years.

Is that protection 100%? Of course not. It is defined as 99.5% to 99.9%. Insufficient for lightning protection because it is not 100%. But it is, by far and without exception, the best and least expensive alternative available to every homeowner.

A true pure sine wave UPSes approach $1000. Nobody needs that. However they are advertising to naive consumers who will automatically believe the first half truth. This 120 volt UPS was sold as a pure sine wave UPS. It outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. And yes, square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. So they did not lie. They market to people who will believe anything stated without perspective - a number. Such as %THD. A majority foolishly believe a UPS is a surge protector. Yes it is. At 4000 joules, it is a near zero surge protector. They did not lie.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Telco CO will suffer about 100 surges with each storm. How often is your town without phone service for four days after each storm while they replace that computer? Never. Because the solution that is not 100% is THE solution always used in every facility that cannot have damage. How effective? Research papers use numbers such as damage once every 400 years. Only effective solution from lightning and other destructive transients is that effective.

Did you see my earlier reply? This is absolutely not true. I have 2 pure sine wave units, 1 was $120 the other was about $500. Secondly a surge protector protects form more than just lightning, such as poor house wiring and shorts, and any number of other things that can cause damage to equipment. UPS's are able to absorb this as well with the added benefit of your computer not hard shutdowning when the power flickers/goes out.

My parents house got hit by lightning about 10 years ago. Stuff still managed to blow out despite having a whole house protector, however ANYTHING on a surge protector was fine. I'm not saying thats what saved it, was probably dumb luck, but it happened.

A surge protector never - as in never - protects from household wiring shorts. Shorts create a low voltage. Numbers are printed on every protector box. That 330 volt let-through voltage means a protector does nothing (remains inert) until voltage well exceeds 330 volts. A short creates a lower voltage - does not create over 330 volts.

If any house has defective wiring, then what specifically does that protector protect from? If defective wiring is an open neutral, then a protector does absolutely nothing but disconnect its protector parts to avert a house fire. That resulting higher voltage remains connected to and damaged the appliance. Then a fuse blows so that the resulting appliance damage does not threaten human life. What does an adjacent protector do? Nothing.

If defective wiring exists, an informed homeowner fixes defective wiring. A misinformed consumer spends massively on surge protectors or a UPS as it that will avert the threat to human life.

Fix a defect - ie defective wiring - not its symptom. If a power cycling appliance causes incandescent bulbs to change intensity, then fix defective wiring. Never cure symptoms with a UPS or protector. Wiring (even 1930 vintage) must be so robust as to not cause voltage changes to other appliances.

Even a 'whole house' protector does not avert damage. A 'whole house' protector works because and only if properly connected to what actually does all protection - single point earth ground. If your parents had a 'whole house' protector and still suffered damage, then defective earthing should have been inspected and corrected.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Effective protectors only connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to what does protection - single point earth ground. If damage occurred, an informed homeowner investigates - learns what human mistake caused that damage. Then corrects that human mistake.

Um, no wrong. A short circuit causes excessive electric current which when it hits a surge protector causes the fuse or circuit breaker to pop. This is one of the simplest concepts in electronics. I don't know if you're someone who just does a lot of internet research and therefore fancies himself an expert, but you are so utterly and completely wrong its amazing.

If a short circuit exists, then no current gets to the protector and appliance. Because the short circuit even causes voltage to drop to near zero; then to zero when fuses between the grid and short trip.

If you do not know what a short circuit is, well, then explain how 120 volts increases to well over 330 volts during a short circuit. Since a short circuit (in household wiring) causes voltage on both wires to be same - voltage drops to zero. Does not increase from 120 volts to well over 330 volts. That should be obvious even using concepts taught in elementary school science.

Unfortunately many who recommend surge protectors or UPS do not even know what happens during a short circuit - that creates a large current and a near zero voltage. All others are warned about many who make recommendations and do not even know how electricity works. As if a short circuit increases voltage.

Protectors has relevant numbers on its box. Its let-through voltage is 330 volts. That means protector circuits do nothing until voltage well exceeds 330 volts.

What are you talking about???? Are you serious?

When there is a short circuit it causes the current to SPIKE, there is no increase in voltage but the voltage is not what causes the damage its the surge in current. Short circuits have nothing to do with voltage.

On the other end of the line your protection is a fuse or circuit breaker that can handle a certain number of AMPS of electricity. Amps are a measure of current. So then you have a circuit breaker that if the current goes over say 35 amps (or whatever it is) it pops protecting the equipment. If there is no circuit breaker the equipment absorbs it, usually damaging it.

Theres an old saying its not the volts that kill you, its the amps (in reference to touching the 3rd rail).

If you don't believe me read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_circuit

I cannot believe you are still arguing this, you literally have no concept of how electricity actually works.

So many foolishly recommend a UPS or protector to do what it clearly cannot.

A short (created by defective house wiring) creates a large current - that goes no where near a power strip, UPS, or appliance. That short is terminated by circuit breakers in the main box. That short creates a near zero voltage. A near zero voltage harms no appliances.

A power strip protector does absolutely nothing until 120 volts well exceeds 330 volts. Number is on every protector's box. You should have read it. A short circuit does not create 330 volts. A protector does absolutely nothing for defective household wiring - despite denials based only in urban myths.

An informed homeowner does not fix defective wiring with a power strip protector or UPS. A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout - so that unsaved data can be saved. A strip protector is typically for surges so tiny as to already be made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance. Why would anyone recommend either for hardware protection? Because most who recommend this stuff only recite urban myths promoted by advertising.

If a defect exist in household wiring, an informed consumer fixes that defect. Only the naive and foolish buy a UPS or strip protector to 'cure' symptoms.

OP asked about connecting a UPS and surge protector - for no useful purpose. In some cases, dirty power from a UPS can damage the protector. UPS is only for data protection. Superior protection, already inside every computer, even makes 'dirtiest' UPS power irrelevant. Superior protection already inside every computer converts tiny surges (ie 1000 joules) into electricity to harmlessly power its semiconductors.

What is the best power strip? A $3 power strip with UL Listing with an always so critically important 15 amp breaker. Adding some ten cent protector parts (to sell it for $25 as a protector) may even decrease human safety.

This is the only thing I can agree with:

"An informed homeowner does not fix defective wiring with a power strip protector or UPS"

However buying a power strip or UPS as protection for very expensive equipment from any number of things that can happen to cause a home short is a GOOD idea. So yes the OP is wrong to try and use a UPS and surge protector in line to offer more protection. but the use of EITHER devices for protection is absolutely important.

All UPS's do not supply "dirty power' I have 2 sine wave UPS's in my home that provide perfectly clean power. They aren't thousands of dollars like you say, you can buy one right now for $150. I've proven this over and over.

You keep harping on volts, volts is not what causes damage. You again have proven you have no idea how electricity works, how a short can happen in a home. I don't know what is wrong with you or why, but you sound like a complete fool. Just stop already.

> However buying a power strip or UPS as protection for very expensive equipment
> from any number of things that can happen to cause a home short is a GOOD idea.
> So yes the OP is wrong to try and use a UPS and surge protector in line to offer
> more protection. but the use of EITHER devices for protection is absolutely
> important.

That is true if a conclusion comes from popular urban myths. First indication of a misguided conclusion is statements without numbers. For example, protection already inside expensive appliances is (as required by standards) superior to what any power strip or UPS claim. Numbers. A 1000 joules surge may be so tiny that electronic appliances convert it into low and rock stable DC voltages. That same 1000 joule surge is why so many "know" MOV protectors are sacrificial devices. It is grossly undersized. A surge, too tiny to harm expensive appliances, may destroy that near zero protector. Numbers such as joules are damning. Why do you never provide such numbers?

This 120 volt UPS is a pure sine wave output. Include numbers. Its output is 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 vol.ts. The manufacturer clearly did not lie. Square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. If your UPS is a pure sine wave (and no UPS is truly pure), then numbers such as %THD were posted. No numbers is why a pure sine wave UPS is also some of the 'dirtiest' power seen by electronics.

Why is that power so 'dirty'? Superior protection already inside appliances means a 'dirtiest' UPS is not harmful - again demonstrated by numbers.

Any claim that is subjective is best labeled bogus. If beliefs are based in technical knowledge, then every paragraph includes numbers that define that claim. Especially manufacturer specification numbers. Manufacturer spec numbers define protection provided by a power strip or UPS as near zero. Inferior to protection already inside appliances ... that even makes irrelevant 200 volts square waves with 270 volt spikes.

If volts do not cause damage, then why did International Design standards define how robust electronics must be ... in volts. For example, long before the IBM PC existed, 120 volt electronics had to withstand up to 600 volts without damage. ATX standards for computers listed numbers approaching 1000 volts. At least one Seasonic PSU claimed to withstand 1800 volts without damage.

Electrical nature of each anomaly must be discussed ... with numbers. Some transients do damage as defined by voltage. Others do damage as defined by current. Your home must suffer a 20,000 amps transient (ie lightning) without damage. So a minimally sized 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Then a near zero voltage is created - causing no appliance damage. But again, facts provided with numbers that every homeowner should learn. A minimal 'whole house' protector must be 50,000 amps. The connection to earth must be low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet'). Numbers never provided in subjective posts based only in hearsay.

OP asked about UPS and power strips for appliance protection. UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved. UPS does not protect hardware. Does not claim to. Its 'dirty' output does not cause hardware damage due to superior protection already inside every appliance. However a pure sine wave UPS can do damage to power strip protectors.

Power strip protector claims to protect from a transients that is already made irrelevant by protection inside appliances. Anyone can read numbers. A 1000 joules protector (therefore rated at 3000 joules), is for near zero surges. It is not for another and completely different type that actually does damage.

A properly earthed 'whole house' protector to essential to protect a UPS or power strip. As was understood long before computers existed.

Another fact that every homeowner should learn. 'Whole house' protection is only 'secondary' protection. No UPS or protector define protection. Every protection layer is defined by the earth ground. Every homeowner is strongly encouraged to also inspect their 'primary' surge protection layer. A picture demonstrates what should be inspected AND what is unknown to most who recommend power strips and UPSes:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Bottom line: An honest reply always includes numbers. Where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed? You have repeated half truths and lies promoted by advertising - subjectively. Your first useful post will state where energy is harmlessly absorbed. Otherwise you have not recommended protection.

A protector (UPS or power strip) is only as effective as its earth ground. Neither plug-in UPS nor strip have an earth ground. Their manufacturers will not discuss earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground ... where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.

I should not have to repeat facts (with numbers). Your next post (if informative) will included technical (specification) numbers in every paragraph.

westom talks like a spambot or like the windows technical support phone calls I get saying my computer is sending them error messages which is full of bs.

Saberus, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you for replying to this guy. It all comes down to him basically describing how we all know electricity to work as an "urban myth".

I just want to grab him and shake him and yell AMPS at his face!

Westrom sounds like a guy selling house surge protectors

Direct lightning strikes without damage is routine. That 4000 joule protector is for near zero surges - that typically do no damage. Protectors or UPS adjacent to appliances do not even claim to protect from destructive transients.

Amps, volts, and joules are all interrelated. Apparently electrically naïve layman are in denial due to knowledge only from advertising.

No UPS nor plug-in strip claims to protect from destructive surges. With profit margins that are tens or 100 times greater, some layman get nasty when reality demonstrates how easily they were scammed.

Nothing inside a house protects from destructive transients. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. The naïve who keeps posting, well, he never did this stuff.

Joules that measure a 'whole house' protector have no relationship to 4000 joules that defines the OPs completely different device. Those two devices obviously operate completely differently. Joules are measuring different things by devices that operation completely differently. Whole house protectors rated at 50,000 amps means hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly. That 'whole house' protector absorbs near zero energy. A power strip (a one shot device) gets destroyed by a surge often too tiny to damage household appliances. But that means learning this stuff rather than attacking with ridiculous denials and silly statements about current.

120 volts sine wave UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Another UPS that actually has more 'sine wave' like outputs is about $1000. No UPS need be that 'pure' due to superior protection circuits routinely found inside all electronics.
In every facility that cannot have damage, the 'whole house' solution is the only solution. Some will fire an employee for installing a plug-in protector or UPS - that increases risk of fire and damage. But that means learning science rather than learning how to be nasty and ignorant.

Yes every honest consumers expects a sales site to provide specification numbers - a least a full page of those numbers. But with so many technically ignorant consumers such as Saberus, more profitable is to sell inferior products at higher prices ... by not providing spec numbers. Keep the ignorant ignorant. Then they will incessantly promote ineffective products.

His Tripplite specs say nothing about a sine wave - despite his bogus claims. A pure sine wave does nothing useful. Tripplite specs say it only does what is already done inside a PSU of every properly designed computer. Why spend so much money to only do what is already done? They are marketing to the technically naïve who get nasty when he must provide spec numbers. UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power. Since a 120 volt UPS that outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts does not damage any properly designed computer. Not one. It is marketed as a pure sine wave UPS. And they did not lie. Nobody need spend $1000 for pure sine waves since superior circuits required to be in a computer already make that unnecessary. But only the fewer who know electricity would know that. The electrically naïve deny it.

'Whole house' protection is required in every facility that cannot have damage. Earth ground as required for human protection is often insufficient for transistor protection. But only the electrically informed would know that. Reasons why were explained previously. Only a fool spends tens of times more money for a UPS or power strip that clearly does not protect from any typically destructive transient. And yet those fools keep reposting misinformation and moronic denials.

OP is strongly encouraged to spend tens or 100 times less money for the only solutions always found where damage is not acceptable. That means earthing that Saberus clearly does not understand and that does not exist in any home unless the homeowner upgrades / installs it. One can learn how this stuff was done even 100 years ago by ignoring his hyperbolic denials - that always come without valid numbers.

BTW a 1000 joule surge means current and voltage is defined. Only the electrically educated would know that. Denying reaity was posted in the Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump tradition.

Protection is always about earth ground - and not by scams promoted by Saberus. He still cannot say how hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate - due to an education from advertising. As if 1000 joules means current is undefined. Please get educated. 1000 joules makes obvious what the voltage and current would be - if one learned this stuff before denying it.

And so it continues... ignoring the basic tenants of electricity, how amps is the measure of current. How current is what can cause damage, how Active PFC PSU's are sensitive to non sine wave power. How Sine wave UPS's DO put out sine wave power and what he describes is simulated sine wave which non sine wave UPS's produce. And the links Saberus posted mentioned pure sine wave output for both devices, and they max out at about 126 volts on a spike on battery, not 270. You ignore what doesn't match your story.

If a house was missing a proper ground then that's a problem that needs to be repaired, but the assumption needs to be that his house is properly wired. Assuming that, there are still many ways equipment can get damaged.

But we get it, your way is the right way and all the UPS and power strip companies are in collusion in a conspiracy to charge people for stuff they don't need. We get it, get over it.

Again you have confused an earth ground that provides human safety (only one incoming AC wire connects to earth) with upgraded earthing required for transistor safety. So many numbers posted previously defined this difference. Including numbers for resistance and impedance.

A house that meets latest codes can also even make appliance damage easier due to defective earthing. Again, its about how and where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

OPs 4000 joule protector is near zero; to protect only from surges typically made irrelevant by protection already inside each appliances. We know this for so many reasons. Including numbers for earth ground. That near zero protector also has all but no earth ground. Also explained with numbers Even a trivial 100 amp surge would result in something approaching 12,000 volts at the appliance. Where is protection? Mythical.

Damage is done by energy. 20,000 amps connected to earth by a properly earthed lightning rod means 20,000 amps times near zero voltage. That is near zero energy resulting in no damage.

That same 20,000 amps current connected to earth by a less conductive material (ie wooden church steeple) means 20,000 amps times a high voltage. That high energy resulting in massive steeple damage. Protection (as even demonstrated by Franklin in 1752) has always been about where energy dissipates.

Its just not that difficult. But for some, soundbytes being the first thing told must always be the truth.

Yes, sometimes damage can result even with proper protection. In one case, we (because we do this stuff and others here do not) properly earthed a home. Then lightning damage resulted. A vein of graphite was behind the house. So a best connection to earth was incoming on AC mains, through household appliances, and out to that graphite vein via the structure. Due to that graphite, lightning ignored what would have otherwise been the best earth ground.

Single point earth ground was expanded into a loop to surround that house. Damage was due to a human mistake. By expanding single point ground, that human mistake was corrected. No more appliance damage. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Once an earth ground was corrected, then energy no long dissipated destructively inside their house - no more damage.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. The OP's protector has no earth ground and (like other near zero power strip and UPS protectors) does not claim to protect from destructive surges.

I did this stuff for decades. As made obvious by so many answers with numbers. Others here clearly did not. That explains why do many believe near zero protectors with no earth ground must do protection. Advertising said so. That proves it must be true.

UPS has one purpose - temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved. 'Dirty' because protection already inside electronics is so robust. Only collusion are many naive layman easily manipulated by advertising. At least one knows 200 volt square waves with a spike of 270 volts must be a pure sine wave output - because advertising said so. It's only hard when one believes advertising rather than engineers and specification numbers.

Westom, what is your degree and when did your receive it? And when was the last time you worked in the field?

This is why I have no respect for anything you post. You do not know any of the basic electrical concepts. So you do what Donald Trump is currently doing - attack the person as proof that reality must be wrong.

Cited repeatedly are numbers and sources that do this stuff. We don't see this as much as we used to since most every venue we deal with now has proper earthing, and 'whole house' protection from manufacturers (previously listed) with integrity.

You should be asking to learn about the 'art' of protection rather than attack the messenger. A protector is only as effective as its single point earth ground. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Always.