Dx12 nvidia vs amd

Bitkevicius · Sep 2, 2015

Will be the r9 390 more powerfull than the gtx 970 with the dx12 update?

ElMoIsEviL · Sep 2, 2015

Yes. Unless the game is a GameWorks title, expect AMDs cards to be extremely competitive with nVIDIA's offerings. I broke this story under the pseudonym "Mahigan". Maxwell/2 cards do not support Asynchronous Compute. That means that while they can handle Compute tasks in Parallel, they cannot handle Compute and Graphics tasks in Parallel.

I could go into technical details but I'd likely lose everyone if I did. If you're truly interested in learning the ins and outs of this issue... there is a massive thread over at Overclock.net and another over at HardOCP (forums). Beyond3D is running tests to try and disprove my theory but, so far, have been unable to.

Tomshardware and Anandtech have not said a word on this growing controversy, shame on them, it seems these websites are more concerned with acting like 3rd party Public Relations firms than actually informing the public.

Why is it important that Maxwell/2 cards cannot support Asynchronous Compute (when they advertised they could)?

Because Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, Mirror's Edge, Fable Legends, Star Wars Battlefront (once it gets a DX12 update) and pretty much every single major title releasing in the next 3 to 6 months will support the feature.

If I were you, I would inform myself as much as I could. You can check out this article at ExtremeTech: http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/213202-ashes-dev-dishes-on-dx12-amd-vs-nvidia-and-asynchronous-compute
There's another over at Guru3D and another at DSOgaming.

Do not make a purchase before informing yourself.

Good day

renz496 · Sep 2, 2015

i think it is still jumping into conclusion too early. did you ask nvidia themselves how their ASync work? also the way i understand about it the feature are not mandatory in DX12. it is developer choice to use Async or not. just like tessellation in DX11. did all DX11 game have tessellation in it?

FunSurfer · Sep 2, 2015

It seems that AMDX12 > NviDX11

ElMoIsEviL · Sep 2, 2015

renz496 :

We have asked nVIDIA for comment on several instances. They've responded with "We're looking forward to DX12 Gaming".

That's it.

Now Async Compute may not be mandatory but it is used in these upcoming titles (sequels)...

Tomb Raider
Deus Ex
Fable Legends
Mirror's Edge

It will be integrated into the following Game engines and all the games coming out based on them..

Epic Unreal 4
Frostbite 3
Unity
etc...

There are MANY titles coming out in Q4 2015 as well as Q1 2016 which make ample use of the feature. Now you'll still be able to play the games but at an identical performance, assuming a compute bottleneck, as DX11 games.

In terms of GCN based cards... you're looking at up to 30% boost above the current Frames Per Second. This is why an R9 290x can match a GeForce GTX 980 Ti under the Ashes of the Singularity benchmark (and Oxide only made a small use of the feature).

My take is... I'd postpone on a Graphics card purchase, if you're looking to play DX12 games, until nVIDIA respond to this whole controversy. So far, they've been unwilling to respond. Many Tech journalists have reached out to them for comment but they're not budging.

Another interesting part in all of this is how nVIDIA applied pressure on Oxide in order to remove the feature in their benchmark. It seems that nVIDIA didn't want the bad press which would ensue.

All of this is verifiable, I'm not saying anything which hasn't yet been reported because, well, I'm the original source for this debacle. I emailed Oxide to come and talk to us about what we were seeing in Ashes of the Singularity after I formulated a well developed theory on the topic. That's when Oxide informed us of exactly what happened.

Everything is contained in this thread: http://www.overclock.net/t/1569897/various-ashes-of-the-singularity-dx12-benchmarks

It's a LONG read. But here are a few key points..

http://www.overclock.net/t/1569897/various-ashes-of-the-singularity-dx12-benchmarks/1200#post_24356995

http://www.overclock.net/t/1569897/various-ashes-of-the-singularity-dx12-benchmarks/1400#post_24360916

Peace.

Mousemonkey · Sep 2, 2015

You forgot to add this link :- http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/amd-there-is-no-such-thing-as-full-support-for-dx12-today.html

Maybe it's because it reveals how AMD aren't ahead after all or maybe you just "forgot to", who knows?

renz496 · Sep 2, 2015

Now Async Compute may not be mandatory but it is used in these upcoming titles (sequels)...

Tomb Raider
Deus Ex
Fable Legends
Mirror's Edge

any links you can provide those game will use Async? i know they are DX12 games but i can't find specific those game are confirmed to use Async.

Also any explanation why kepler able to get performance increase with DX12 as seen by the test made by WCCFTECH?:

http://wccftech.com/ashes-singularity-alpha-dx12-benchmark/

ElMoIsEviL · Sep 3, 2015

Mousemonkey :

I specifically mentioned Asynchronous Compute. I did not mention any other DX12 features. I didn't claim AMD has full DX12 support either (though they do have full support for DX 12_0 just not 12_1).

Why would I make claims which are not true?

Beyond3D made up a test to disprove my claims but it ended up proving my claims here: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/dx12-async-compute-latency-thread.57188/page-21#post-1869776

HardForums is full of discussions about this: http://hardforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Anandtech as well: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2443723
Guru3D has an article here: http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/nvidia-wanted-oxide-dev-dx12-benchmark-to-disable-certain-settings.html

TomsHardware is a little late to report on this...

Here's an nVIDIA advert misleading the public...

ElMoIsEviL · Sep 3, 2015

renz496 :

Rise of the Tomb Raider: http://gearnuke.com/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-uses-async-compute-to-render-breathtaking-volumetric-lighting-on-xbox-one/

Deus Ex - Mankind Divided: http://gearnuke.com/deus-ex-mankind-divided-use-async-compute-enhance-pure-hair-simulation/

Fable Legends (18 mins in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MEgJLvoP2U

Mirror's Edge: http://gearnuke.com/mirrors-edge-catalyst-reach-new-levels-gpu-optimizations-via-async-compute/

Just to name a few titles...

Pretty much every single PS4 and XBox One Console Port will as well.

Say as you wish and do as you wish... I'm just letting you guys know that I've been monitoring your news section and have yet to see anything on this issue. I used to be a big time Tomshardware reader... now I'm questioning this website quite a bit.

ComputerSecurityGuy · Sep 3, 2015

Yes. The fellows over at Arstechnica saw an R9 270 beat a GTX 980 Ti at 4K DirectX12 performance. Add that to the fact that the NVIDIA Windows 10 drivers are awful and AMD is a clear winner. In fairness, it may be that the NVIDIA cards support these features at some level and the drivers just do not support them, but it seems to be a hardware-level thing. Maxwell is DX11 optimized while GCN is optimized towards DX12. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar difference in Vulkan ( OpenCL replacement).

renz496 · Sep 3, 2015

Thanks for the link. So in TR dev use Async compute to accelerate their volumetric lightning. If that's the case can't just nvidia use their FL 12_1 for that? And in Deus EX they use Async compute for TressFX. We know nvidia able to handle TressFX in TR before so if nvidia simply bad in Async compute would that make nvidia performance will be bad no matter what? Also any thoughts on Kepler (770) performance increase in DX12 compared to DX11?

On another topic I see people are questioning why this matter are not reported more by media. I think we all want answers from nvidia but it is useless to pursue the story if nvidia are not ready with their official statement. Some of tech sites probably already asking nvidia but they might not publish their story unless there is definite answer from nvidia. Even with 970 fiasco it takes quite sometime before the matter become a news even when the community already discussing and try to make their to prove their theory. Pcper for one already approach nvidia for answers. And many expect pcper to keep quiet about it since to some pcper are pro nvidia in their view.

17seconds · Sep 3, 2015

Bunch of AMD sponsored games.

renz496 · Sep 3, 2015

Nah to be exact I would not be surprised to see if Mirror's Edge going to be nvidia title. And that's not because the game were part of TWIMTBP title before.

ElMoIsEviL · Sep 3, 2015

renz496 :

Thanks for the link. So in TR dev use Async compute to accelerate their volumetric lightning. If that's the case can't just nvidia use their FL 12_1 for that? And in Deus EX they use Async compute for TressFX. We know nvidia able to handle TressFX in TR before so if nvidia simply bad in Async compute would that make nvidia performance will be bad no matter what? Also any thoughts on Kepler (770) performance increase in DX12 compared to DX11?

On another topic I see people are questioning why this matter are not reported more by media. I think we all want answers from nvidia but it is useless to pursue the story if nvidia are not ready with their official statement. Some of tech sites probably already asking nvidia but they might not publish their story unless there is definite answer from nvidia. Even with 970 fiasco it takes quite sometime before the matter become a news even when the community already discussing and try to make their to prove their theory. Pcper for one already approach nvidia for answers. And many expect pcper to keep quiet about it since to some pcper are pro nvidia in their view.

I don't want my theory proven... I want nVIDIA to respond. I want to know if it is true or not.

nikoli707 · Sep 3, 2015

you and amd want them to respond. why should a company show their cards before its their turn. horrible business advice. both sides will only leak out twisted words to placate their potential customers. dont fall for that crap. both will perform well and like always some games likely will favor one architecture over the other.

renz496 · Sep 3, 2015

I'm not asking about your 'Maxwell cannot do Async compute' theory. I'm asking your thoughts on Kepler performance increase in AoS DX12 benchmark as seen by WCCFTECH in their test.

nikoli707 · Sep 3, 2015

i thought async compute has been around since the first titan card? or is it different when talking about gaming vs workstation?

renz496 · Sep 3, 2015

I don't know. I see some people did some digging and they found that nvidia have been doing Async compute in gpgpu since Fermi. Idk if they are different in gpgpu and when use in games.

ElMoIsEviL · Sep 3, 2015

renz496 :

nVIDIA can handle compute tasks in parallel but not Graphic+Compute (which is what Async Compute is all about in terms of the DX12 spec).

As for my thoughts on that one test at WCCFtech... it hasn't been reproduced. WCCFtech was also using a whole slew of different hardware configurations on all of those test systems. It is kind of hard to do any sort of comparison because of this.

17seconds · Sep 4, 2015

But aren't you doing the same thing, looking at a single pre-beta AMD sponsored benchmark, Ashes of the Singularity, and jumping to all sorts of conclusions? I have no doubt there will be a benchmark out before too long that leans heavily on raster processes, and the tables will turn. Heck, even just adding tessellation will burst that AMD bubble.

Any developer can exploit or accentuate any architecture as they please, particularly something like Ashes of the Singularity, which is more of a technology demonstration than a game anyone's going to play. It's extremely doubtful that the majority of DirectX 12 games will prefer architecture that a only a small minority of gamers run in their PCs.

nikoli707 · Sep 4, 2015

for farts and hahas i hope your right, i hope furyx just magically performs 200% higher than the 980ti in battlefield 5. we all will just buy incredibly powerful cards for really cheap then.

Dx12 nvidia vs amd

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