r9 380 worthwhile upgrade over an HD7850

Schweet · Sep 15, 2015

Hi everyone,

I'm thinking about extending the life of an old system (q9450 @ 3.5 GHz) with an r9 380 4GB from a HD 7850 2GB, and an upgrade to 8 from 4 gigs of ram.

Do you think that this upgrade is worthwhile? Will I really notice a difference between the 7850 and the 380, especially considering the 380 has 4GBs of VRAM and is paired with 8 GB's of system RAM? Will this difference be able to tide me over at pretty decent fps on med at 1080p for new titles for another year or two where the 7850 would not be able to?

Or, will I only marginally improve performance over a 7850, holding on for only a few more months, and need to upgrade soon anyway, in which case the extra $300 dollars on this upgrade would not be worth it, and should instead go towards a new build?

It would be sweet if this little upgrade would let me play Star Citizen with tolerable fps, med settings and 1080p. Do you think that is at all realistic? I've seen people play it with a gtx 960, but there is the question of that CPU bottlenecking too hard with AI and other ships present (maybe DX12 will help here?)

But, otherwise I'm looking at somewhat less challenging games like the Witcher 3 (still very challenging), Total War Warhammer, Kingdom Come: Deliverance, Arma 3, ANNO 2205, Divinity Original Sin 2 etc...

With my 7850 I currently get about 30 fps average, 20-25 in towns, and 35-40 in low demand areas, on the Witcher 3, 1080p, med settings, 40-60% CPU and near full GPU usage. How much do you think an r9 380 would improve upon this?

Here's a witcher 3 benchmark where at 1080p and med settings the gtx 960 gets 53 fps and the 7850 gets 35 fps average:
http://www.techspot.com/review/1006-the-witcher-3-benchmarks/page2.html
and the 380 is slightly more powerful than the 960, and with twice as much vram as the 960 model compared to on this link.

In Summary, will this upgrade:

1) Improve my Witcher 3 experience substantially?
2) permit me to play SC on med settings 1080p where the 7850 would not?
3) permit me to play new titles at 1080p med settings 35+ fps at least for the next year or 2?
4) be a worthwhile upgrade over a 7850 and 4gigs of ram?

Rookie_MIB · Sep 15, 2015

Comparing the specs: Yes. Probably about 30%? Hard to say since driver optimizations and improvements to the GCN cores make a difference.

Your 7850 has 1024 stream processors at 860mhz with the memory at 1200mhz and 153GB/sec bandwidth on a PCI-e x16 v3 160 Gflops

The R9-380 has 1792 stream processors at 1050mhz with the memory at 1050mhz and 182GB/sec bandwidth on a PCIe x16 v3.0. 190 Gflops

Schweet · Sep 15, 2015

Rookie_MIB :

how do you think this will translate into real world fps? 30% meaning from 30 fps average to 39 fps average?
Good enough for another 1-2 years with the specifications I gave?
What about SC and TW3 sepcifically?

4745454b · Sep 15, 2015

If you upgrade anything, make sure it will carry over to a new system. This means I wouldn't buy a new CPU or RAM. (unless your board can run DDR3) Anything you buy that won't carry over is money wasted. The 380 will run in a new setup, so if you want to try that you can. But you are honestly at the end of the road with what you have. Think about what you wrote. Barely 30FPS sometimes at 1080 with MEDIUM settings. You are missing out on a lot. Time for a new system.

Schweet · Sep 15, 2015

4745454b :

I'm not gonna upgrade the CPU, but I was planning on the RAM upgrade to be more compatible with recent titles, most of which say something like 'quad core CPU with 8GB RAM and mediocre GPU" or whatever for the system specs.

"Barely 30FPS sometimes at 1080 with MEDIUM settings" is my current rigs performance. My hope was to push this to more like 45 fps @1080p and med/high settings for another two years so that I can wait just that much longer for the faster skylakes, the cheaper/faster ddr4, the pascal GPUs, the cheaper/better z170 MOBOs, and maybe most importantly for the release of VR devices like the Rift and Vive.

The first one or two iterations of VR in that year's time will presumably work out many of the bugs and drivers etc...and we'll see some real world benchmarking tests to know what hardware VR REALLy requires. I don't want to jump the gun upgrading to a system that will still be insufficient once those are released and they get rolling on the software for them.

So, all in all, I'm asking if I can tide myself over until all of that arrives with this upgrade where the 7850 would be unplayable.

Another way of putting it is: if it's a given that I'm waiting another year to see how all of that plays out, is this upgrade a worthwhile stopgap? Or should I just keep plugging along with my 7850 and save the money?

4745454b · Sep 15, 2015

I understood why you want to upgrade the RAM. But as I said if you buy RAM for this system it will be mostly likely DDR2 RAM, and it won't help with any future system. I don't know what you are spending on the DDR2, but it would be money better spent on something newer. The trick is to keep your gaming now, without spending a lot.

Rookie_MIB · Sep 15, 2015

A Core2 Quad 9550 can actually get some respectable geekbench scores, which means it's not a bad processor. Yes, DDR2 will limit it somewhat, but going with a R9-380 - if it doesn't give him the jump he needs will certainly not hinder him if (WHEN) he decides to upgrade the rest of his system. Yes, the DDR2 would be a waste, but for the most part he's at the end of the line with the CPU as far as upward movement. His only choices are the QX series, and there's only 3 or 4 processors which are stupidly high in power usage compared to what he has now.

So - some DDR2 would run him between $20-40 to go to 8gb (if he has 4x1GB and needs to replace it all). If he already has 2x2gb and gets another 2x2gb, it'll be cheaper. Even if he does get some 'useless in a a future upgrade' DDR2, it still might help him NOW. And it's 20 bucks. Three days of Starbucks.

4745454b · Sep 15, 2015

Perhaps, but why waste it? If it's "$20-40", that $40 in DDR3 will get him 8GBs instead of four. I'd even say limp along with what he has now, as we are moving to DDR4 at the moment. I know it's only a week of starbucks. But if it's tying you to a dead/dying system why bother? The GPU is a good upgrade as it will run in a new setup. Same with a PSU or HSF. But to buy a new CPU or ram that is generations old seems like a bad idea to me. Unless you buy used a get a good price.

Rookie_MIB · Sep 15, 2015

The $20-40 is the range for 8gb. As I said, if he has 2x2gb, he can get another 2x2gb probably for even less than $20. And I agree, he's better off getting either a full Haswell, or even jump to Skylake. But - that'll cost him a minimum of $400ish, not including his r9-380. He might not have the funds.

Schweet · Sep 15, 2015

Unfortunately, decent, especially overclockable, old ddr2 is a bit more expensive than you are estimating, more like 50-60 dollars for 2x2gb.

I know I'm better off jumping to skylake, and I will, but the question is whether to do it now, or, if it is better to wait for all of the things that I said I would be waiting for (especially VR).

And, if it is better to wait, and so it is a given that I am waiting about another year for a new build, is it worth it to upgrade this old one temporarily?

I could also recoup some costs selling the 8gb ddr2 and the 380, and the rest of it, when I build the new system.

Rookie_MIB · Sep 15, 2015

My suggestion would be to -try- the extra RAM and the R9-380. If it works, it works and you've solved the problem.

If not, I would say a good Haswell system will be good for a while. I priced out a core system recently about $380 and that's using an overclockable high-end i5. A stock i5-4400 or so would be about $40 cheaper, and because it also included a hyper 212 evo, another $35.00 since there's no oc'ing for the i5-4400. So - $300ish for a i5-4440, gigabyte H87 board, 8gb crucial ram. That would be a plenty solid build with the R9-380.

To go with Skylake (because they only have two k-series CPUs priced right now, you're looking $420ish for an i5-6600k, hyper 212 Evo (k-series come with no heatsink) 8gb DDR4 Crucial RAM, and a Gigabyte H series board. Again, it would be a great base for the R9-380, but it's significantly more expensive for a small percentage increase as the Skylake CPUs are only a few percentage points above the Haswell CPUs.

Schweet · Sep 16, 2015

Rookie_MIB :

sorry, I accidentally clicked pick as solution instead of reply to your post lol.

I won't spend the extra on an in-between mobo and cpu to hold me over for a year. If i'm gonna build a new comp then I'll just get the 6600k and the z170 and a 970 and do the whole upgrade now.

The only options I am considering are a ram/gpu upgrade to the old system now, with a full new system build in the future about a year or two, or a fully new system build now without getting the ddr2 ram or 380 at all.

The other question is if the 380 and extra ram is even a noticeable improvement over the 7850 in the first place. Anybody on here make this upgrade specifically? Or a similar upgrade, like a 7870 to a 280x or something?

Schweet · Sep 16, 2015

Rookie_MIB :

I think I'll try this, but if it doesn't work it's a 15% restocking fee at newegg to send back opened merchandise (whereas there is no restocking or shipping back fee for returning unopened merchandise).

15% on about 300 bucks is paying like 45 dollars just to give it a try, so I guess that's the cost of the gamble here to see if the 380 can do everything I need it to for the next two years, that furthermore I would not be able to do wit the 7850 (that is, if I get about the same performance with the 7850 on new titles anyway then I would have wasted the money and could have waited another year with my current system without any upgrades)

Either way, I'll get an SSD now that I can transfer to a new system, or is there any problem with taking an ssd from one mobo/chipset to another? I would have to do a clean wipe no?

Rookie_MIB · Sep 16, 2015

Schweet :

The R9-380 will easily be good for the next two years or so. It's a very capable GPU, so I doubt you'll need to worry about refunding that.

Getting an SSD is a great upgrade for any system - I had an old Toshiba with a Core M and a spinny drive. There were some days when it took 3-4 minutes to boot up and when I had to swap page file info? I could go make a sandwich. And eat it. Putting in the SSD even in that old beast was like getting a brand new system. It's amazing the difference that makes. It doesn't make the computer 'work' faster, but boy when you're moving data around on a drive it's makes a world of difference. Moving from one system to another can be problematic and you may have issues depending on your OS and licensing.

And ultimately, looking at your system with the Q9450 - my brand new Haswell system scores about 11,000 or so. Your Q9450 scores nominally about 7-8000 (depending on your clock speed) - just out of curiosity, have you geekbenched your system? Believe it or not, that puts it right around an AMD A10-7850k CPU and even the FX-6300. Check gaming benchmarks for those - they don't have any bottleneck issues.

I think you'll be fine. Get the R9-380, get 8GB RAM, it's your cheapest route and I think you'll be in good shape.

Schweet · Sep 16, 2015

Rookie_MIB :

Great, thanks! I'll go with the 380 and ride things out a little longer.

As far as transferring my SSD across to a new system in two years, there wouldn't be any problems if I just wipe it clean and install a new OS (assuming I buy a new one then, I've only got win 7 now and the free upgrade to win 10 won't last forever) would there? The only disadvantage there is having to buy a new license, assuming they aren't all free by then?

And, if I want to keep my old OS, the problems are in getting the new chipset drivers on there so that the new mobo recognizes it? Isn't it easier just to wipe the thing?

Rookie_MIB · Sep 16, 2015

If you have the Win7 install media, then don't worry about it too much as long as you have a valid license key. Even if you don't things can be... worked around... if you know where to look. The Win10 upgrade program will go for about a year (ends some time late July?) and yes, make sure you have the right drivers handy - but honestly, Win7 is pretty good at changing things on the fly when you put in new hardware.

Schweet · Sep 16, 2015

Rookie_MIB :

sweet, thx

Schweet · Sep 16, 2015

here's my geekbench btw:

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/3463141

multicore:
6668
about 8000 for integer and floating point, 1362 for memory

I also finally managed to download star citizen today and test with my 7850, 4gb rig with MSI afterburner:

High Settings:
99% GPU
CPU staying around 50-70% with 35-40 fps in hangar and free flight, more like 70-90% when directly in combat and
with 30 fps, very rare dip to mid 20's

low settings:
GPU is 90%+ with 30-35 fps in combat, CPU stays the same

Social Module:
Low
GPU: 75-85%
RAM: 2800/4000 inside, 3400/4000 outside
VRAM: 1500 inside, 1800 outside
CPU: 60-80%
FPS: 25-30, 20 outside

Med
GPU: 85%-90%
RAM: 2900 in inside 3100 outside
VRAM: 1800 inside, 3100 outside
CPU: 65-85%
FPS: 20-30 inside, 15-25 outside

The social module was kind of playable FPS at first, but after about ten minutes there was a drop to totally unplayable 0-10 fps, at which point CPU and GPU usage also became erratic and moslty low. I'm not sure if that was a network problem of some kind on one end or the other, too many people joining, or my system just being to weak or what.

Hopefully, with release optimization and DX12 the q9450 will perform somewhat better, and the R9 380 will allow high settings at playable FPS, but who knows, maybe the q9450 just won't be enough for star citizen at any settings regardless of GPU.

I'll give a performance update when I get the upgrade

Schweet · Sep 17, 2015

Okay, so I installed the r9 380 and 8 gigs of ram. Unfortunately, the new ram isn't quite as overclockable, which means that my CPU is also limited by my MOBOs auto overclock feature to 3.2 rather than 3.5 GHz. I don't know if there is a workaround for this, or if it will matter that much.

Here was the Witcher 3 Performance on My OLD card and 4gigs ram:

Results @ 1080p with medium settings, no hairworks, are around 35 fps average, rarely dipping below 30, and often above 40.

The GPU usage hovers around 87-91%
The CPU usage varies from 40-60%
RAM usage at 3.7-3.9 GB
temps on all are fine
(using HWmonitor and MSI afterburner fyi)

Now new card and 8 gigs:

Results @ 1080p with med settings, no hairworks

FPS: 45-50 riding around, 40-45 in a fight, about 40 in town
The GPU usage hovers around fluctuates from 75-90% rapidly
The CPU usage varies from 70-90%
RAM usage at 4.5-4.7 GB
temps on all are fine

Results @ 1080p with HIGH settings, no hairworks

FPS: 38-42 riding around, 38-45 in a fight, about 40 in town, 45 walking around, 55 in caves
The GPU usage hovers around fluctuates from 75-90% rapidly
The CPU usage varies from 70-90%
RAM usage at 4.5-4.8 GB
temps on all are fine

AAAAAAAND then I blue screened of death while playing the witcher 3, I have no Idea why. I had crashed the witcher twice before with my old card, and they caused me to have to restart, but it wasn't a bluescreen

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: BlueScreen
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033

Additional information about the problem:
BCCode: 1e
BCP1: FFFFFFFFC0000005
BCP2: FFFFF80002E744C5
BCP3: 0000000000000000
BCP4: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
OS Version: 6_1_7601
Service Pack: 1_0
Product: 768_1

Files that help describe the problem:
C:\Windows\Minidump\091615-21216-01.dmp
C:\Users\User01\AppData\Local\Temp\WER-39390-0.sysdata.xml

Schweet · Sep 17, 2015

Now for Star Citizen:

New GPU:

High Settings:
100% GPU
CPU staying around 70-80%% with 30 fps in hangar and free flight, more like 90-100% when directly in combat and
with 30 fps and consistent dips to low 20's

low settings:
basically the same as high settings

Soooo...on SC the performance is worse, the CPU totally chokes the GPU, especially given that I can only OC to 3.2 GHz with this new RAM. Maybe this will improve with optimization/DX12 but probably not

Schweet · Sep 17, 2015

SO, on the whole this was a mistake I think. I'm getting 10-15 better fps on average in TW3 (which is noticeably nicer, but not huge), and I'm doing much worse in SC because of the CPU lowered OC due to the new, less OCable RAM.

Maybe in less CPU intensive games I'll continue to get that 10-15 fps advantage over the old system, but its just not worth it really.

I'll be sending all of this back then

There goes a bunch of time wasted and about 50 bucks in restocking fees

Schweet · Sep 17, 2015

Metro Last Light On Old GPU:

Also, on Metro Redux @ 1080p and all settings maxed and around 35fps average, often going into the 40's, never below 30:

The GPU usage fixed at 99%
The CPU usage varies around 40-60% still
4GB RAM fine
temps on all are fine
(using HWmonitor and MSI afterburner fyi)

On New GPU:

The GPU usage fixed at 99%
The CPU usage varies around 50-70% still
8GB RAM fine
temps on all are fine
FPS: 60-120, generally around 80-90

So 25-85 more FPS, HUGE gain.
Except that it crashes either on startup or within a few minutes of playing, sometimes to desktop and sometimes so that I have to restart the computer. At least the few times I tried it.

I'll try it out on Atilla TW as well just because I've already got it all setup, but I can conclude that it's only a huge gain on games that aren't CPU intensive, and that I've causes some kind of problem that is making everything crash.

Rookie_MIB · Sep 17, 2015

Do you have the latest drivers? Many times the drivers it ships with are what they had at the time the board was made and may not incorporate the latest fixes. And, when you do the driver update, download the latest driver right from AMD, uninstall the old driver completely. REBOOT. Then reinstall the new driver.

All in all, the only game you had a regression on was Star Citizen - meaning it definitely is CPU bound - as for the DX12 optimizations - there's supposed to be a big drop in CPU draw calls especially on AMD GPU powered systems. I figured you'd get about at 30% increase in FPS which (except for the Star Citizen due to the CPU issue) which you did get.

One thing I didn't ask BTW - what PSU are you running? One powerful enough for the R9-380? Get the drivers sorted out before you send it back, all in all it does sound like it helped a fair bit in spite of your CPU limitations.

Schweet · Sep 17, 2015

Rookie_MIB :

I do have the latest drivers. I uninstalled the old drivers, installed initially from the CD, and then got the latest from the internet. I actually even uninstalled and then reinstalled the latest from the internet just to check (with a reboot inbetween like you said).

The improvement on FPS with the new card without the CPU bottleneck in Metro was very good, and with a little bottleneck in TW3 was pretty good, until it crashed, which it did repeatedly. Maybe I had a defective Card. Also, not quite worth the money imo now that I see the result.

PSU is Corsair TX 750, so no problem there

Given that I'll probably continue to be CPU limited at least some of the time going in to the future, and that the 8gigs of RAM doesn't overclcok enough to get me to 3.5 GHz (and I couldn't find better ddr2 anywhere for a sane price), I think I'll just save up another 500 bucks and make a whole new build come black friday.

Thanks again for the help everyone, and sorry for the anti-climax

4745454b · Sep 18, 2015

It sounded like you said you picked the best answer in error so I removed it. If you feel a better one applies (even if it's the one you picked.) then please pick your answer again.

For the games that perform worse you can check the loads for the CPU and GPU and see which isn't being stressed as much anymore? You did see some faster games, so doing a bit of legwork on the worse performing ones might be a good idea.

r9 380 worthwhile upgrade over an HD7850

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