Could I have blown a brand new power supply (PSU) from other fried components?

b_profane

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Hello there

I've been building gaming machines for over 10 years now. Had something strange happen to me this summer. I went away on holiday for about 2.5 weeks, and came back and my box wouldn't boot up at all (no power, no post, nothing). I do recall over the last 6 months or so some instances of fail-to-get-out-of-sleep-mode, needing a full re-boot, etc. Not all the time, but sometimes.

So then I crack open the box to start to poke around. Quick summary of my system when I did:

- ASUS P6TD Deluxe motherboard
- Intel i7 950 series CPU
- Corsair 280mm (ie dual-fan) watercooler
- 3x 4gb of RAM
- Corsair 850w power supply
- TITAN X Geforce video card
- 2x SATA hard drives

After checking all cables and unplugging / refitting them, nothing seemed to work. I then turned to the power supply because basically it would not power up at all (no fan, beep, nothing). I did the paper-clip test and nothing. I cracked it open (I know, but it was about 4 years old anyway, and I lost the warranty), and no capacitors seemed blown. There was a lot of dust in there, but hey. I could get the power light to come on the surface of the mother board. And I could also hear one single faint "click" within the PSU box, but that is all. When I cut power completely to the PSU the "click" re-sounded, but this time in reverse, as if it was switching off.

So I decided to order another PSU, this time an EVG model - the Supernova - also 850w. I plug it in and nothing. Nothing - except the same clicks. After much trouble shooting, which included:

- taking all graphics cards out
- all RAM except one card out
- disconnecting all SATA hard drives
- even a bench-test of the mobo with it sitting on a cardboard box

I still got nothing. A paper-clip test on this brand new PSU also results in nothing, no fan etc. So now I conclude that it must be something with my mobo / CPU etc. Since it has been about 5 years since I last bought these components, I felt it was time for an upgrade anyway. So I bought:

- MSI 970 Gaming mobo
- AMD 8-series CPU
- upgraded Corsair 280mm water cooler
- 3x 8 GB of RAM

I install all of these and hook up to the (also brand new) PSU and...NOTHING!

Now I'm at a loss.

Looking back at the series of events, I am left asking: Could the mobo / CPU have been fried in such a way that it returned the fire to my new PSU and fried it?? Can a new PSU be fried immediately by some built up surge, etc? As for the power source, I was originally (and always) hooked up through a surge protector. For all of the tests above, I tried with and without the surge protector, and I also tried another power outlet in the house. Any advice will be helpful. I'm now going to try to have that PSU replaced, but if they won't do it, I guess I'll order another one. But this is starting to get expensive...!

Cheers in advance.
 
Solution

First, 3.3 (orange wire) and 5 (red) volts are sometimes on a same regulator. It appears so in this case. The 3.3/5 volt regulator is also defective here. Troubling or just a coincidence? Probably the latter. But that pattern will not be ignored.

Dust can always be quite heavy. But as long as the dust has not completely obstructed any airflow, then the system is designed to still have sufficient airflow. Very little airflow keeps parts more than cool enough. Airflow so tiny that it cannot be felt with a hand. Gentle airflow is designed to keep it cool even in a 100 degree F...
It could be 1, your PSU was a DOA which is highly unlikely. It sounds like some components are faulty. Check and see if you can get a replacement for that PSU, and run it on another system if possible to make sure it works. Thats very odd, keep me posted.
 

westom

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Even ATX specs define what a power supply must do. For example, power up a PSU with all outputs shorted. Even that short circuit must not damage a PSU. The load cannot damage any properly designed PSU. And a properly designed PSU must not damage the load (motherboard, disk drives, etc) even when it fails.

Little can be concluded without numbers. For example, a power controller decides when a PSU powers on or off? Did you know of the power controller and that a PSU is actually two separate power supplies? Without numbers from a meter, then only speculation is possible.

No 'stored surge' is in a motherboard. That series of events seems strange, but leaves many assumptions unstated. For example, was a paper clip test conducting while connected or disconnected from the motherboard? Best information on power 'systems' (more than just a PSU) means numbers from meter using some requested instructions. Only then can a reply discuss the entire power system.

Without numbers, then replies can only use expressions such as "it sound like" or other speculations. Definitive answers (and why that failure exists) are possible only with a meter.
 

b_profane

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Thanks. To answer your question, the 'paper clip' test was done while disconnected from the motherboard. It was not in fact a 'paper clip' test, but done using a test cap that came with the brand new PSU and fit over the 24-pin main cable. All other cables were disconnected. Turning on the power switch resulted in no fan.

Unfortunately I didn't have (and don't have) a meter to provide the numbers. I am very perplexed though. I get that a PSU can be DOA, but that should be a very rare occurrence. And I feel that after having ordered the new one to replace a PSU that died, and it then arriving and not working (after much troubleshooting) and failing the 'paper clip' test is even beyond rare. i.e. That I should be so unlucky as to replace a fried PSU with a PSU that is DOA? I can't help but think that something in the setup has affected the new one the same as the old. Just can't for the life of me understand what it could be.
 

westom

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Again, your conclusions are not based in what is; are based in what should be.

Not having a meter is irrelevant. Meters sell for less money than a hammer. Meters are ubiquitous.

Again, nothing on a good or bad motherboard can damage any properly designed PSU. If a built up surge exists, then where is a motherboard part that stores that much energy? It does not exist. Without numbers from a meter and instructions, then nobody can provide an informed answer.

Its can get expensive if you do not spend much less money on a meter - to learn what is defective before fixing anything. Shotgunning is typically the most expensive repair strategy.
 

b_profane

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Ok, so I went out and bought a meter. Here is what I can tell you, and I would be grateful if you could guide me further, or give me your thoughts. I have run the tests on both the original and the new PSU. All tests were on the main 24-pin motherboard connector. All tests were run with the PSU not connected to any part of the computer (no motherboard, fan, nothing).

ORIGINAL PSU (Corsair HX 850W):
- yellow (+12v): +0.38
- red (+5v): -0.01
- orange (+3.3v): 0.00
- blue (-12v): +0.49

NEW PSU (EVGA 850W P2):
- yellow (+12v): +0.17
- red (+5v): +0.02
- orange (+3.3v): 0.00
- blue (-12v): -0.01

So clearly a dramatic loss of power. I also tested the yellow & red on the peripheral 4-pin MOLEX and got the same readings. I have ordered a new PSU which should arrive tomorrow.

The last thing I want to do is plug it into the setup and see it get fried as well.

:??:
 

westom

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Stop worryng about something that could have occured 500 times. If damage was to happen, it occurred already and in microseconds. Put everything back to original configuration. A meter will not say anything useful until you read exactly what was posted:
What were you going to do without first reading each sentence as posted - without requesting instructions? Nothing.

Literally, you must request instructions, as stated repeatedly, before ... well ... that is the point. Stop assuming.

You took meter readings that say nothing useful because you assumed rather than read what was posted. So meter readings say nothing useful.
 

b_profane

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I have stopped assuming. I have put everything back into its original configuration. Awaiting instructions.
 

westom

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Restore everything as when the computer worked. AC power cord connected to a receptacle. Computer not on. Set a digital meter to 20 VDC. Attach its black probe to the chassis.

Locate a purple wire (pin 9) from the PSU to where it attaches to the motherboard. Use a red probe to touch that wire inside a nylon connector that attaches to motherboard. If necessary, make that connection using a needle or paper clip. It should read somewhere around 5 volts. Record that number to three digits.

Next, do same with a green wire (pin 16). Then press computer's Power On button. Monitor how meter changes and what it eventually settles to. First number should be something well above 2.6. Second number should be something near to zero, Actual numbers and time to change (behavior) are relevant.

Repeat same to a gray wire (pin 8). Note a higher starting voltage, a lower final voltage, and its behavior. Report those three digit numbers and behavior.

Setup computer to execute as much software as possible. IOW it should be outputting sound loudly, while searching the disk, while playing complex graphics (ie a move), while powering a USB device, while accessing the internet, etc. Having it access many peripherals simultaneously is important. If it cannot power up, then monitor any one red (pin 4,21-23), orange (pin 1,2,12 or 13), and yellow (pin 10 or 11) wire for what each does as and after its power button is pressed.

Report all three digit numbers from those six wires. Next reply will identify or exonerate suspects.

BTW, if wires are not colored, then a PSU may not be ATX Standard. See www.smpspowersupply.com for color and pinouts.

 

b_profane

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First of all, thank you for laying all this out for me. I appreciate the help.

Now, unfortunately after having done all of what you said, there is still no significant power to speak of coming out of my PSU. The computer doesn't boot, turn over, post, nothing. I have restored everything to its original set up. I have connected the original PSU to the original pc and then run these tests. And I've connected the new PSU to the newly built pc and run them. Testing each of the purple, green, grey, red, orange, and yellow wires while connected to the motherboard produces no activity. All read 0.00, both before, during and after I turn on the power button. The only activity I witness is the very faint and one-time "tick" from within the PSU.

When I disconnect the PSU from the motherboard, perform the paper clip test, and then test those pins, I get the readings as detailed in the earlier post.
 

westom

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First reading was from the purple wire. A power system is actually two completely different power supplies. Purple wire is power for a computer referred to as a 'power controller'. Without something approaching five volts. then we have an anomaly to trace. Let's follow that evidence.

Disconnect an AC power cord before making or breaking any connection so as to not damage hardware. Then unplug that maybe 24 pin connector from the motherboard. Attach meter's red and black probes to that purple and any black wire. Then reconnect the AC power cord. What is that voltage - all three digits are significant.

What we can conclude from your first test: If that purple wire did not have a voltage, then a motherboard short or power supply defect exists. If 5 volts appears, then a motherboard short exists. If 5 volts still does not appear, then power is not entering, being regulated by, or coming out of the PSU. That test determines where a failure is on the left side (motherboard) or right side (PSU or its AC power connection). IOW we are now 'following the evidence'.

Another power supply inside that PSU might be perfectly good. At this point. we do not care. We are simply concerned with a smaller supply that must provide 5 volts on the purple wire. To determine if that smaller supply or the motherboard has a defect. What number or voltage movement does that new test report?
 

b_profane

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Ok I have to apologise, my friend. In going back to run more tests, I discovered that the box of my chassis is not conductive (due to the paint?) and therefore I had no ground before. I tried using a screw as a ground instead and that works. So please ignore my last post.

I re-ran all of your original instructions -- i.e. restored the system back to its original configuration, and then back-probed the motherboard connector the pins as you describe. Here are the results:

purple:
- 5.12 reading while PSU is on / computer is off

green:
- 4.59 initial reading
- turning on computer causes it to drop rapidly (within about 1 second)
- eventually settles on 0.03

grey:
- 0.02 initial reading
- turning on computer has no effect
- it remains at 0.02

red:
- 0.00 initial reading
- turning on computer has no effect
- it remains at 0.00

orange:
- 0.00 initial reading
- turning on computer causes it to climb steadily over approx. 5 seconds
- eventually settles on 0.06
- note: when computer is powered off it takes about 5 seconds to steadily drop to 0.00 (i.e. not immediately)

yellow:
- 0.00 initial reading
- turning on computer causes it to immediately jump to 0.26
- then drops down to 0.05 over about 20 seconds (quickly at first and slowing down steadily)
- when powered off, it very slowly drops to 0.00 (over about 30 seconds)

And as I said earlier, as the computer does not power on at all, so I cannot run it with any heavy load.
 

westom

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OK. A power supply is actually two separate supplies. Purple wire connects a small supply to a computer that controls power. That 5+ volts is perfectly good. So the power controller is operating properly.

Green wire is that computer ordering the PSU from off (4.59 volts) to on (0.03 volts). So the power controller sees a front panel power button request a power on.

Gray wire is a voltage monitor that (at 0.02) tells the power controller that it never sees proper values on critical voltage wires.

Now to look at another power supply inside that PSU.

Apparently the 12 volts (yellow wire) sees an initial attempt to provide power. Then cuts off when some other voltage (apparently) does not meet required values. 3.3 volts (orange wire) also sees some attempt.

But the 5 volts (red wire) never gets started. Apparently the power controller was told voltages are bad because 5 volts never gets started. BTW, very useful descriptions for the red, orange and yellow wires.

Suspects on 5 volts are power supply or its load. Either PSU has a defective 5 volt regulator output. Or a short somewhere on the load (motherboard, disk drive, GPU, etc) causes 5 volts to never get started. We know what voltage is defective. Now decide if the defect is on the load (left) or PSU (right). This is where we draw a line between suspects to discover a failure on the left side or right side.

Disconnect AC power cord. After a few seconds, disconnect all other power wires to disk drives, GPU, etc. Also temporarily disconnect that GPU from motherboard. IOW only power connection should be to the motherboard. Restore that AC power cord. Set the meter to measure that 5 volts and press the power button. If any formally attached device was defective, then the 5 volts should rise (or at minimum rise for only a second). If not, then only remaining suspects are motherboard or PSU.

Again, remove AC power cord and delay. Then disconnect that 24 pin connector. Restore AC power cord.

This time, connect the meter to that connector (and PSU) red wire to red probe; any black wire to black probe. Using a paper clip, short the green wire to any black wire. Paper clip is now ordering PSU on (as the power controller once did). If that 5 volts shows a response, then the PSU may be good - numbers and behavior are important. A good PSU implies a short circuit on the motherboard.

If that 5 volts does not move, then we know (without doubt) that the 5 volt regulator inside the PSU has failed. BTW that would be rather unusual because 5 volts and 3.3 volts often share a common regulator. IOW I am betting that short was on the motherboard.

Obviously, this procedure assumes most likely responses. If disconnecting disk drive and GPU result in good voltage, then procedure changes from what is above. But this provides enough to accomplish something - maybe half of what was posted. Or if lucky, all of what is posted. Report back to get a modified procedure or to learn more about what exists.

Again, those numbers say the PSU is ordered to power on. But a 5 volt output (red wire) has problems - either a defective regulator inside the PSU or a short circuit elsewhere in computer's 5 volt bus or 5 volt peripherals (ie disk drives)
 

b_profane

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Disconnected power connectors from the GPU and hard drives. Disconnected GPU from the motherboard. Back-probing the red cable on the mobo connector showed no activity (0.00 before and after power button pressed).



After doing this I get a reading of only 0.01 on the red wire before shorting the green wire and 0.02 after shorting the green wire to a black wire.
 

westom

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Apparently the 5 volt regulator circuit in that PSU is defective. I might open the PSU to determine what part has failed. But that cannot be done by this channel.

We know PSU has good incoming power - purple wire has 5 volts. But the other power supply (red wire 5 volts) is defective.

Don't remember. Did you have other failed supplies? If it also has same symptoms, then a pattern exiss. Then an interesting (and confusing) defect exists.
 

b_profane

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A quick summary of the sequence of events.

- came back from holiday and turned on pc, won't start
- at that time pc was self-built, and mobo, CPU and PSU were all about 5 years old. GPU was 1 year old.
- paper clipped that PSU and fan didn't turn on
- bought new PSU
- pc still wouldn't start
- bought new mobo, CPU, water cooler
- connected new PSU to these and still won't start
- paper clipped that PSU and fan didn't turn on
- contacted this forum and entered discussion with you
- bought another new psu but have not opened

So, back to the title of this thread: could something about the old system (which fried the old PSU) have also damaged this PSU? I am hesitant to hook the brand new PSU up. Maybe some tips how to do this in a controlled way?

Anyway, this is a strange one, I guess.
 

westom

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Did you not connect a second PSU to that system? Use same procedure to learn if that has a similar failure.

Damage occurs in microseconds. If a motherboard caused PSU failure, then any PSU connected is already destroyed. Meanwhile, nothing in the load can damage a properly designed PSU. No damage due to so many features including over voltage protection, over current protection, and fold back current limiting.

Collect evidence using previous supplies using the same procedure. Meanwhile, no 'controlled' installation is possible. Either a supply works or it protects itself. Test with those older supplies first so that system remains least unchanged before connecting a new supply.

ATX specs even describe how to short all PSU outputs together - to test each PSUs self protecting functions. PSUs are required to be unharmed by the load.
 

b_profane

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Ok, I will do this, but prefer to bench-test that old system if possible rather than un-install all the new hardware from the chassis. If I am testing a bench-tested motherboard set-up with a multimeter, what should I use as ground?

Also a question related to the PSU that we have just diagnosed. If the power-up cable (green wire) seems to be working fine, then why would the paper-clip test fail to activate the PSU fan? Or perhaps that fan is controlled by the 5v wire, which we know is faulty...

And on a final note -- moving on -- I connected the brand new PSU to the system and all works fine (i.e. the new mobo+CPU+PSU). However when connecting all the remaining parts to the PC (cooler, GPU, HDs, etc), I have discovered that my second internal hard drive, when connected, causes the PC to start very briefly (for about 1-1.5 seconds) and then stop altogether. I removed all parts and tested one at a time, and have firmly narrowed it down to this second HD. I have re-arranged the SATA cables (switching from master to slave, and also only connecting it by itself), but it is always the same result. Quick start-up followed by complete power off. If I disconnect this HD, it all works fine. Is this a fried HD or caused by a short in it somehow? This failure is possible also related to the damaged PSU?
 

westom

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Ground is any black wire on that 24 pin connector or on any disk drive four pin power cable.

Purple wire (from the first and smaller power supply) successfully powers a power controller. Power controller powers that green wire. Green wire is a signal for the PSU to power on. Power controller (via green wire) is properly asking for a second (larger) power supply in the PSU to power on. But that larger supply is not providing 5 volts. Therefore all voltages (3.3, 5, 12, -12) are powered to protect anything that is powered by multiple voltages.

Often a fan is powered by the -12 volts - a different voltage. That one is not critical. But that also is part of the second (larger) power supply and therefore remains off after an initial attempt to power on.

Most failures are due to manufacturing defects. Unusual to have two PSUs both with such failures. But symptom is why the second supply should be tested to find a similar (unlikely) defect.

When the green wire asks a PSU to power on, then PSU tries to for up to 2 seconds. After two seconds, if proper voltages are not obtained, then PSU powers back off. That is what you have seen. I do not know why adding the second HD causes that reaction to change. Bit fpr now, only be concerned with the power 'system' and removing anything (shorted/failed) that might cause the power 'system' to not boot.

This would be an outrageous suggestion. But 12 volts in that one drive may be partially shorted to its 5 volts creating enough 5 volts to other parts; to actually try to start for a second or two.

Some background. Disk drive, for example, has two voltages - 5 and 12. If at any time the 12 volts goes less than 5 volts, then hardware damage can result. Circuits exist so that 12 volts is always at or higher than the 5 volts. You could measure this with a meter. Put the red probe on a yellow (12 V) wire. Black probe on a red (5 V) wire. At no time during a power up should that measured voltage every go negative - meaning 12 volts is less than 5 volts. It is a long shot. May not provide useful information. But easily observed and demonstrates another of so many safety features in every PSU.
 

b_profane

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Ok, I have gone back to the old PSU connected to the old system and run those tests again. The results are different:

purple: 4.99
green: 3.48 / drops within a second / settles on 0.01
grey: 0.00 / stays at 0.00
red: 0.00 / stays at 0.00
orange: 0.00 / stays at 0.00
yellow: 0.11 / stays at 0.11

If I disconnect the mobo connector and test the wires in the mobo connector, those reading are:

- yellow: 0.37
- orange: 0.00
- red: -0.02

I also might add that I have cracked that old PSU open, and there was quite a bit of dust inside. The PSU fan was facing the bottom of the chassis, and that was sitting on carpet. Maybe it wasn't getting proper ventilation over 4 years and the dust killed it? Just trying to find the culprit.
 

westom

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First, 3.3 (orange wire) and 5 (red) volts are sometimes on a same regulator. It appears so in this case. The 3.3/5 volt regulator is also defective here. Troubling or just a coincidence? Probably the latter. But that pattern will not be ignored.

Dust can always be quite heavy. But as long as the dust has not completely obstructed any airflow, then the system is designed to still have sufficient airflow. Very little airflow keeps parts more than cool enough. Airflow so tiny that it cannot be felt with a hand. Gentle airflow is designed to keep it cool even in a 100 degree F room. Heat is unlikely to have caused failure especially if not in a room that warm.

Be cautious when opening a PSU. Simetimes leak down resistors (typically 100K ohm) have failed. Then those capacitors can be storing over 300 volts long after the PSU is powered off. Safety says to short those capacitor leads together, with a screw driver on the solder side, to discharge any still charged capacitors. You will know if it was still charged. The spark will be robust and make noise.

Unfortunately most failures do not create a visible indication. In a rare case, a part might be physically deformed or blackened. All that gunk (maybe yellow or brown) spread across parts was to secure parts from vibration. That is where I would go next to learn what has failed and why. No formal procedure exists for it, each supply is rather unique, and care must be taken - all cannot be described here.

Well, duplicate the test without being connected to the motherboard on that new supply. This to confirm what you have been reading on those other supplies is not due to some overlooked procedure. To confirm that new supply does not have same characteristics as on the two older and defective ones. Then you have no choice. Connect it to the motherboard and measure.
 
Solution

b_profane

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Testing the brand new PSU (which is able to boot the computer) while paper clipped shows the following:

Red: 5.03
Orange: 3.31
Yellow: 12.27

So all looks normal and proves I have been testing correctly.

I suppose what we've concluded here is that both the old and the replacement PSUs have defective red/orange regulators. Are they defective for the same reason? Something caused by the old system while dormant on holiday? I don't know. Maybe the very first response to my OP was correct - i.e. the replacement was DOA. I gain comfort now that a brand new replacement does not seem to have these issues.

But now my new issue is my second internal HDD, once connected to the PSU causes the system to start/stop. I am using two HDDs, one with apps (and Windows) on it, the other as data. This faulty one is the data drive, which of course has me a little stressed, so I am keen to get this one back on-line. I will probably post this issue in a new thread, as I feel it is a new issue and perhaps not related to all of the above.

westom: Thank you for all your patience, explanations and help! I am a smarter PC builder because of this.
 

westom

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Informative would be that second hard drive as an only connection to that new supply. Does it cause 5 and 12 volt numbers to change? If working properly, it should not. If some kind of leakage exists between 5 and 12 volts, then numbers may change slightly. Although I would more expect that leaky disk drive component to get hot. Still it is worth trying since it is so convenient right now.
 

b_profane

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Ok, I have tried testing the yellow and red wires under both paper-clipped set-up where the HDD is the only thing connected to the PSU. And I also did a fully connected set-up (meaning all PC components are connected, and I power-on using the power button. The results are the exact same, which are the following:

WITHOUT THE HDD CONNECTED (i.e. normal start up)
Yellow (red node) + Red (black node): 0.00 quickly to +7.25 where it holds steady

WITH THE HDD CONNECTED
Yellow (red node) + Red (black node): starts at 0.00, then quickly up to about 10-11, then quickly back down to 0.00
Yellow (red node) + Black (black node): 0.00 quickly to ~11 and quickly back to to 0.00
Red (red note) + Black (black node): 0.00 and stays at 0.00 throughout

Looks to me like the red wire is not getting activated with this HDD is connected.
 

westom

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Another possibility. Maybe 12 volts is shorted to the 5 volts inside that disk drive. That higher voltage would trigger over voltage protection on the 5 volt regulator - intentionally shorting out (red wire) 5 volts. Then all other critical voltages must shut down. This would happen too quickly for a meter to see it. But it does explain some of your previous symptoms.

This type failure does not cause damage in a properly designed PSU.