Build graphic/design workstations

Hi guys,

I've been doing a bit of research into building design workstations and I'd like some input on it if possible. The software will be CAD, Sketchup, InDesign etc. (mainly 2D but some 3D) running on Windows.

- What are the main benefits of a workstation card over a normal consumer card? Looking at benchmarks the GTX 950 for example has well over twice the 'brute force' processing power of a Quadro K620 but the Quadro costs more. Why is that? I've heard the Quadro will have more accurate colours and the drivers will have better support for this kind of software, is that true? Are there other advantages?

- Is it worth getting ECC memory? I know lots of memory will be helpful but is ECC worth it? Any recommendations on how much memory if using these programs? Would faster memory be helpful? If faster memory isn't that important maybe a large page file on a SSD would be better?

- Does this kind of software typically utilise more than 4 threads? Wondering whether an i7 or overclocked i5 would be best.

Thanks.


 
Solution

The Quadro's normally have a "validated" driver (i.e. less chance of errors), and have better double-precision compute performance. I believe the Quadro's are needed if you want 10-bit per channel colour support, but I could be wrong on that.

Dunno about the other questions...
 

snowctrl

Distinguished
You essentially have two key choices to make - Xeon or Core CPU, and GeForce or Quadro GPU

Xeons and Quadros are designed to be able to run at 100%, 100% of the time, without issue, so for example if you are gonna be leaving a system for days at a time to render 3D scenes, you might decide you wanna go Xeon and/orQuadro. Cores and GeForces are not intended for environments where they will be run consistently at max output. That's not to say that an overclocked i7 can't do it.... but a Xeon system is a non-hassle guarantee. But for example BOXX make workstations with overclocked i7s, but it is noticable they choose much less aggressiver overclocks than companies advertising systems for gaming.

Quadros also give you 10bit colour which is necessary if you wanna properly colour correct video, at which point you will also need to carefully consider monitor choice (I use Dell UP2716Ds for example). What a Quadro loses in power compared to the equivalent GeForce card it make up for in optimised drivers to a large extent (as mentioned above) and for some software they are essential given their better math ability (also as mentioned above)

Best solution - start with the software you will be using, and look at the system requirements - pro software often has certified hardware, GPUs especially.

ECC memory - this only works with Xeons (I think) so if you go Xeon, it is one of the advantages... but unless you're doing something absolutely mission ciritical, like financial calculations or space flight trajectories, ECC is unneccesary.

As for whether multi-threading is useful, this is down to individual software pacakges and how they are programmed, so you will need to look at that on a case-by-case basis. But I always go with processors that have it so I don't find myself wishing I had it at some later date.
 


jmsellars1,

Basics:

Rule 1: The fundamental design principle of workstations- and servers- is reliability /stability, even beyond performance. If a system has the computing power to run a particular Matlab problem in 10 hours instead of 14 but crashes at 9:59, then the 14-hour system is the winner. The tortoise that finishes the race, beats the hare.

Rule 2: The second principle is precision- avoiding errors- is more important than speed. I complex calculations, errors are extrapolated such that a tiny deviation is magnified, and this invalidates results. If you sent a spacecraft to the Sun and the course had a 1 degree error, it would miss by 1,550,000 miles.

Rule 3: Decide how much performance of each parameter is necessary and at what cost- cost /performance analysis

Rule 4: Protect the data.

Rule 5: Keep it cool

Rule 6: Keep it quiet

Rule 7: Spend only where it matters


CPU:

Stability: Do not overclock the CPU.

Single or Dual CPU's: The choice depends on the use- whether the programs benefit from multi-threading. There is another benefit of dual CPU's in that it adds another 40 PCIe lanes.

Calculation: For servers, VM, and analytical systems- data analysis, financial, resources,simulation, many programs are conifguerd to run on all availabl cores, so the choice is how many cores can be applied

3D modeling: Concentrate on single-threaded performance. This is because the lines and polygons that make planes, forms, and textures have to positionally calculated and this is typically done on one core two threads in the case of hyperthreading processors. this will typically mean fewer cores at a higher clock speed. For example, the No. 1 rated CPU on Passmark- has an average CPU rating of 22197, meaning it makes the highest total calculation per second is the Xeon E5-2698 v3 16-core costing $3,645. However, the single-threaded performance is rated at 1924.The Xeon E5-1620, which is a 4-core scores 1929 single-threaded, thanks to the 3.6/3.8GHz clock speed, but as it is four cores it has a CPU rating of 9100.

Rendering: Rendering may be CPU- cased, GPU based or a combination of the two. To choose a CPU for a workstation for substantial rendering is difficult as it may have to accommodate a variety of software approaches. It appears though that the peak efficiency of CPU rendering is using 5-6 cores and in some cases, dual CPU's actually reduces performance. An exception is Solidworks rendering which is fully scalar- the more cores applied the better.

CPU Cooling:

Workstation CPU's range from 65W to 150W and since they are not overclocked, and since fan /heatsinks are so efficient at heat transfer, liquid cooling is not usually necessary and it makes that odd noise. The only time I remember Intel recommending liquid cooling was for the Xeon E5-2687w v2 (8-core @ 3.4 / 4.0Ghz) Servers have a huge air flow that makes them so noisy that they have to be in special rooms, but check the heat transfer numbers between a good fan / heatsink and inexpensive single- unit liquid cooling and choose the good fan /heatsink.

RAM:

See Rule 2. In my office with ten systems, all the active systems have ECC error-correcting RAM. anything with a lot of objects such s gas flow, thermal, dynamic structural analysis, financial, environmental modeling, particles, reflections, shadows, color gradients, textures, can benefit. In Dual CPU systems, especially servers, ECC registered is used which makes an extra parity check and this helps synchonize between the two, four, or eight processors. Latency is a factor and ECC RAM because of the parity check takes time. However, again accuracy is more important than speed.

Workstations often run very large files- I was using a set of photos a few days ago that were 400 to 800MB each and processing the colors and intensity and etc. take a lot swaps to RAM. Also, workstations often run several programs at once. When working I may have 2D CAD, 3D CAD, photo editing, graphic design, rendering, wordprocessing, and two browsers running. When I learn Wolfram Mathematica I'll have that on too.I give 4GB to Windows and 2GB for each program and 1GB for the files running on each program then double it for swaps.

GPU:

This is a very big subject. In my view there is scope to use both consumer and workstation cards, but if image quality is more important than the speed, the workstation drivers are essential. Many 3D CAD programs run viewports with simultaneous views of the object, photo and video editing /processing needs 10-bit, color-correction, 64 anti-aliasing instead of x16, and there are special batch processing capabilities in CUDA accelerated photo and video editing. As GTX/ Radeon are oriented towards high frame rates, they take a "good enough" approach to image quality. The choice between Quadro /Firepro and GTX/Radeon is between image quality and image quantity.

Disk:

There is no question that workstations and servers benefit from fast disks, both in use and fro fast copying transfers. At the very high end PCIe and M.2 SSD's are great, but I've learned that There can be a "fast enough" level and saving a second or two here and there does not make a significant difference in the way I work. I upgraded a Dell Precision T3500 as a backup system and way to use the parts left over from other upgrades. This included the PERC 6/i RAID controller and 300GB 15K SAS hard drive from a T5500 I upgraded, plus the Quadro 4000 from an HP z420 upgrade. comparing to the HP z420 E5-1660 v2 with a 480GB Intel 730 SSD, the T3500 required 1 min 4 seconds to start from cold to desktop whereas the z420 took 24 seconds- very nice, and when opening an 85MB Sketchup model, the HP was about 25 seconds faster. This is comparing a system that cost $185 to a system that cost $2,000. Saves and file transfers are very much faster on the Z420 , but except for that and the startup time, while working, the T3500 was not particularly frustrating. I tried the Quadro K4200 in the T3500 and even the 3D model navigation was just fine.

Storage Drives: Servers always have redundant mirroring drive configurations -RAID 1- and often a performance RAID 0, but since RAID 0 is dangerous- if one the RAID 0 drives fails, it can take days to rebuild the replacement- the task is to is to find a happy medium of reliability and performance. In a busy office, a RAID 1 I think is essential, but is there is time to do it, backup to an external drive which only runs for backing up. I use a USB 3.0 Aluminum 3.5" enclosure with a fan containing a mechnical drive. there are four parttiion: active files, archive, media/reference/ and a quick restore complete system image. Becuase they only run when backing up, these drives last forever- I have a Seagate 160GB from 2009 in perfect health. This protect the data from viruses and ransomware, plus a number of times, I wanted to revert or use a piece of an yesterday's version of something. That's possible from an external backup but in RAID 1 the other version would be identical.

Case:

Unless space is incredibly tight, have the largest case you can. this will accommodate larger motherboards with more slots, more drives, have better air circulation for cooling, and be easier to work on. I simply put it on the floor under the desk and this also makes using the optical drive and USB ports- flash drives and the camera-very easy- next to my knee.

Having the system be very quiet is impossible to overstress. In some ways I prefer the build quality, case design aesthetics, and support of Dell Precisions, but the HP z420's I have are inaudible from one foot away and given the performance and reliability is so similar, the noise factor is almost enough to sway my choice.

Monitors:

I find having two monitors of any size preferable to a single huge one. I'd rather have two 21" than a single 34". This allows multiple programs to be seen simultaneously, programs on one monitor, reference material on the other, or to have one monitor with the image window and the other full of the menus and drop downs.

If the quality of the image is important, and if the room can be somewhat darkened, use a glossy monitor without anti-glare coating.

If at all possible see, the monitor in person before buying. The image quality is most important, but also see how the the controls work- what can be controlled, and also check the stability and position adjustments.

Performance:

Accuracy and reliability are very important but performance is also critical. This has an impossibly wide scope as high performance is related to optimization of particular tasks by hardware and software choices which may not assist other tasks. A system optimized for 3D CAD modeling will not be perfect for rendering animations for example, so the difficult task is to discover the areas where performance really matters and how many Dollars, Quidniks, or Kangarands it's worth- cost / performance.

The way to do this is to list every program every likely to be used, prioritize the list, and research the hardware best for each program and then consider the relative cost of that hardware to the priority of use.

On a cost-performance basis, it's impossible to better buying everything used, but in many cases companies want warranties, on-site support, and the latest technology. But, buying used /upgrading has been very rewarding. I've had five used workstations in the last eight years and with 100% reliability and a fair percentage of comparable current performance for a small percentage of the cost. The upgraded Dell Precison has 12-cores @ 3.57 /3.8 GHz, 48GB of ECC registered RAM, a 4GB Quadro, 250GB SSD, and 1TB enterprise HD for about $900-$1,000. True the benchmarks will be quite a bit lower, but check the current prices of a dual Xeon Precision with that specification and it over 9X as costly. A pair of Xeon E5-2643 v3 6-core @ 3.4 /3.7GHz costs $3,100 alone. Passmark baselines are extremely useful to see how well components work and Passmark published in effect cost / performance statistics.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

Modeling:

1. HP z420 (2015) > Xeon E5-1660 v2 (6-core @ 3.7 / 4.0GHz) > 32GB DDR3 1866 ECC RAM > Quadro K4200 (4GB) > Intel 730 480GB (9SSDSC2BP480G4R5) > Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > 600W PSU> > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit > Logitech z2300 speakers > 2X Dell Ultrasharp U2715H (2560 X 1440)>
[ Passmark Rating = 5064 > CPU= 13989 / 2D= 819 / 3D= 4596 / Mem= 2772 / Disk= 4555]
[Passmark V9.0 Beta Rating = 5019.1 > CPU= 14206 / 2D= 779 / 3D= 5032 / Mem= 2707 / Disk= 4760] 3.31.16
[Cinebench R15 > CPU = 1014 OpenGL= 126.59 FPS] 7.8.15

Rendering:

2. Dell Precision T5500 (2011) (Revised) > 2X Xeon X5680 (6-core @ 3.33 / 3.6GHz), 48GB DDR3 1333 ECC Reg. > Quadro K2200 (4GB ) > PERC H310 / Samsung 840 250GB / WD RE4 Enterprise 1TB > M-Audio 192 sound card > Logitech z313 > 875W PSU > Windows 7 Professional 64> HP 2711x (27", 1920 X 1080)
[ Passmark system rating = 3844 / CPU = 15047 / 2D= 662 / 3D= 3550 / Mem= 1785 / Disk= 2649] (12.30.15)

3. Dell Precision T3500 (2011) (Rev 2) Xeon X5677 4-core @ 3.46 / 3.73GHz > 12GB (6X 2GB) DDR3-1333 ECC > Quadro 4000 (2GB) > PERC 6/i + Seagate 300GB 15K SAS ST3300657SS + WD Black 500GB > 525W PSU> Windows 7 Professional 64-bit > 2X Dell 19" LCD
[Passmark system rating = 2751, CPU = 7236 / 2D= 658 / 3D=2020 / Mem= 1875 / Disk=1221]





 
Solution
Wow thanks a lot, don't have time to read through that huge reply right now but I will do tonight.

Any thoughts on requirements for those particular programs? It is mostly 2D Interior Design work in InDesign, AutoCAD and SketchUP across at least 2 monitors. Colour/accuracy are reasonably important but not absolutely critical, similar PC's at my friend's workplace seem to do the job fine on a low voltage i7, 32GB of DDR3 and a GTX 660 and I don't think their monitors are anything special. Just thinking I could come up with something much better if for example RAM speed and multithreading aren't so important. Then an i5 and a big page file would save a lot of money for example.
 

snowctrl

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Well others will disagree but I would recommend an overclocked i7 for maximum single threaded performance (that will blow away any Xeon) combined with the ability to render rapidly when necessary and a Quadro, since you will be using AutoCAD which benefits from single threaded performance and Quadro drivers etc.

Monitor I would recommend would be a 27 inch 2560x1440 - possibly two of them, depending on preference, with a Spyder calorimeter (or similar) for colour accuracy. Dell Precision are a great go-to option.

16GB RAM, SSD OS drive and second hard drive for storage (you could get two in RAID 1 for safety).

That's your cheapest it-will-work-well solution.

Or you could blow big money on a full Dual-Xeon system etc (as I have done in the past) - it really depends on what level of work you're doing imho, and you'll lose that max-single-thread speed
 
Well that's given me a lot to think about, considering the type of design work that it is and the fact that it is more of a secondary system to use at home when not at the office I think it would be better to focus on single threaded performance and go for an i5/Geforce setup with a couple of decent IPS monitors. The image/colour quality would be nice but it really isn't critical, I'd be better off saving money.

Think I'd go for something along the lines of an i5, 16GB RAM, GTX 950 and a good quality SATA SSD like a Samsung or Intel drive. I'd go for a large page file on the SSD and room to upgrade to 32GB RAM with a couple of spare expansion slots. Don't think much storage will be necessary and can always be added later if that changes.
 


jmsellars1,

Yes, sorry for the long ramble, which didn't really specifically answer your question. I thought I would take the opportunity to make a brief general guide, but nothing is so simple and just GPU's alone could fill books.

Given the use includes "some 3D" and with the possibility of using GPU rendering, I'd say the best cost /performance solution would be a one generation past workstation with a high single-threaded rating single-threaded. You didn't mention a budget, but assuming a favorable cost /performance and high reliability, how about:

HP Z420 Workstation Quad Core E5-1620 3.6GHz/16GB/500GB/AMD FirePro 2270 > sold for $333.

And in this example, you don't have to build anything, add a good SSD, for example Samsung 850 Evo 250GB, a 1TB storage drive, and I would suggest a used Quadro K2200 (4GB). and two monitors - 24" or 27", and even if they are not very large.- even two 21" is better than a single 27" when using simultaneous programs.

The Xeon E5-1620 has really good single-threaded performance- the Passmark Rating is 1929 with a CPU score of 9001. the good feature of an LGA2011 system is that in the future, the CPU can be changed to a variety of high speed or high core count ones. For about $350 a Xeon E5-1650 v2 is 6-cores @ 3.5 /3.9GHz single threaded is 1954 and CPU mark of 12557. I have a 2013 z420 with an E5-1620 and I'm considering changing the CPU to wither the E5-1650 v2 or an Xeon E5-2690 which is an 8-core at 2.9 /3.8GHz ($2.100 new and now about $350-400) and have that as my second system instead of the 12-core Precision T5500. Multi-threading appears to peak in efficiency at 5-6-8 cores and in some program, dual CPU's are have real inefficiencies. That will change but my main (6-core 3.7/4.0GHz ) system is so fast, 3180 X2140 VRay renderings in about 8 minutes I haven't been using the T5000 for rendering as often as I thought.

Cheers,

BambiBoom



 

snowctrl

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Can I just urge you to make sure you get a colorimeter for your monitors since you will be doing design work - you can get a Spyder second hand for £100 or so (as I did), and it can save you a lot of problems later on (... there maybe better / cheaper options I don't know of, it's been a while since I bought mine)