System really slow getting to BIOS

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droidling

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I built a new system about a month ago. I've had several problems with it. It wasn't slow to boot at first. Recently I noticed it taking forever (about 2 minutes). When I actually timed it I found that all the time was waiting for the BIOS splash screen to actually display. After that it is just a few seconds to the login screen. When it actually boots. Several times recently it has gotten into a state where it will get to the "starting windows" screen then just reboot. The only way I've found to get it back is to do a system restore.

Taking a really long time to POST (not sure that is the proper term anymore) makes me think I have some kind of hardware issue, or possibly something wrong in the BIOS firmware. I'm new to UEFI, is there anything going on other than motherboard initialization before getting to the BIOS splash page? How do I even start to trouble shoot something like this?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this.

OS: Windows 7 Pro
CPU: Intel i7-5820k
CPU Cooling: NZXT Kraken X61
Motherboard: MSI X99A SLI Plus
GPU: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1070 8 GB GDDR5
Memory: G.Skill Ripsaws V 32GB (2x16) DDR4 3333 F-4333C16D-32GVR
SSD: Mushkin ECO3 480GB SSD MKNSSDE3480GB
Optical Drive:LG Electronics 14x SATA Blu-ray WH14NS40 - OEM
Power Supply: CORSAIR RMx Series RM1000X 1000W
 
Solution
MeanMachine41
Things to take into consideration when rendering is not just a requirement for RAM memory size. You also need a fast multicore processor and software that will utilize all cores. I have an 8 core processor with 8MB of level 3 cache (more cores= more power) and 32GB of 1866MHz RAM that I use for CAD model rendering.
The GPU is also an important consideration where a fast card like TITAN X or GTX 1080 comes into the equation.

HyperX HX424C15FBK4/64 are excellent quality DIMMs. If not in stock at Newegg then you may get them at Amazon.
Well worth a try and good to here Newegg accepted the return.
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MeanMachine41

MeanMachine41

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There are a few things that come to mind droidling :)

First thing to check is the CMOS battery to eliminate that possible cause.
Is your SSD plugged into the correct SATA3 port.?
Corrupted Bios. Is your Bios up to date.? EUFI BIOS updates are common for new DIMMs and USB devices.
There are several settings in the BIOS that will cause delays, just a few that come to mind are wait and report times assigned to devices that may not be attached (IDE drives, diskette drives, delays while system checks for a boot disk in the CD-Rom/DVD drive, delays in the PCI bus to check for cards and/or bootable ROM.
Your processor finding it hard to initialize your DIMMs. That would cause a reboot and 32GB at 3333GHz is a lot to ask of the IMC.
 
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droidling

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The battery came with the motherboard but was not installed. I put it in a little more than a month ago.


I don't understand what you mean by "the correct SATA3 port". I thought they were all pretty much the same. I originally set the computer up with a mechanical HDD, then cloned that to the SSD when it arrived. I do not have an m.2 slot type drive in this system, so I wouldn't think the 2 ports that are shared with it would be an issue.


I haven't updated the firmware. This might be a good next step.


I haven't wanted to mess around with BIOS settings I'm not familiar with. This is where my question about trouble shooting comes in. Would the BIOS keep any kind of log file that might give me some idea where it is getting stuck?
I haven't changed any bootable devices, recently. I've changed my monitor configuration from one monitor to 3 with a KVMP switch, so I can keep my old computer around until I get this one sorted out. I'm using the analog/digital switch on the other 2 monitors to switch between computers. I had to change the keyboard since my MS sculpt keyboard wouldn't work with the KVMP switch. I also took out the USB WiFi dongle I used before the system was in it's permanent location and connected to a wired connection.


I don't know what IMC means. I turned off the XMP profile so I believe the memory is running at 2133MHz. I have run a memory diagnostic from Windows. It didn't seem to find anything. I'm assuming it would have stopped and given me some kind of prompt if there was a problem. It just finished and continued to boot windows before I could read the screen.

 
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MeanMachine41

MeanMachine41

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IMC (Integrated Memory Controller) and is built into the CPU.
As 3333MHz is considered an OC and not a JDEC memory standard. You will have to manually key in your Primary Timings and voltages as per your XMP profile. The SPD profile information can be got from CPUz within Windows.
There may be nothing wrong with your DIMMs, however Windows is not the best test. If you feel there may be issues with your memory modules then run Memtest86+ from a USB stick.

Note: Your DIMMs are not listed on the MSI QVL list, so have not been tested in conjunction with the MB for compatibility. Although the MB officially supports Quad Channel DDR4-3333(OC) Memory. They may or may not work together. A Bios update may be all you need.
 
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droidling

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I can put a volt meter on it. I assume I want to do this with it on the motherboard so it is under load, and so I won't loose my settings.


As I understand it SATA5, and 6 can be used as either normal SATA ports, or can be combined with that extras connector to make a SATA Express port. There is also a switch in the BIOS to use them to supply bandwidth to the M.2 port. I'm pretty sure they are not connected. I have a 4 bay hot swap insert connected to SATA1 to 4 with the boot drive in bay 1 (SATA1). I've tried moving it to another bay. That didn't seem to make any difference. would it be a good test to pull the drive out entirely so there is no boot drive, and see how that effects the time it takes for the BIOS to start?



I'll update the BIOS, check the CMOS battery, and run Memtest86+ tonight and let you know how it worked out.
 
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droidling

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The BIOS was up to date (1.D). The MSI Live update application takes care of BIOS updates as well as drivers.

I'm currently running Memtest86+. It's been going for over 13 hours and is only half way through the second pass. I've done some searching and people seem to recommend running from 4 to 10 passes!

I'm still running without the XMP settings. I was planning on running the test again with the XMP on to see if that makes a difference. I would think it would put more stress on the memory. I'm going to do that once it finishes the second pass, unless you think it is better to let it go at the slower speed.
 
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droidling

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OK, bad idea. I thought it would bring up the BIOS screen and then report no bootable drive available.

Trying to test my RAM at it's intended speed didn't work either. I switched the XMP on and this time checked that it was set for 3333MHz 16-16-16-36 1.35V, and that matches the what is specified for my memory. When I tried to reboot I got a message saying that the boot failed, and gave me options to go to BIOS setup, restore defaults, or restore the last good configuration. After switching XMP back off. It booted to the Windows Logo then restarted. I've been here before. As I said in my first post, the only way I have found to get out of this is a system restore to before the last windows update. Unfortunately System restore was failing this time. It took mre most of the day to finally get it to boot.

Am I wrong in thinking that when I do a system restore it only changes the the system disk, and that the BIOS should not change the system disk, So why would a failure of the new memory configuration to boot change my system disk to the point I need to repair it?

I can start Memtest86+ and let it run a few more passes but I am leaning toward this being a motherboard issue at this point.
 
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MeanMachine41

MeanMachine41

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Don't wright of the MB as yet. As I said, your DIMMs may test OK with Memtest86+ but they may not play fair with your IMC.
The only way really is to try another kit with lower frequency. and say 16GB. Can you borrow or try another set. Try with just one DIMM in the first slot and drop the frequency in Bios. If you get it to work then you will have to try both DIMMs at lower frequency and try differing Primary Timings and voltages. It can be a frustrating experience without ultimate success.

System restore is bringing the OS back to an earlier date with previous registry settings.
I always save a restore point prior to installing a new device or software.
Go here for a full explanation on how system restore works: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/using-windows-vista-system-restore/
 
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droidling

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Trying to borrow DDR4 memory really hasn't worked out. If I have DDR4 OC3333 memory, but I set the BIOS to run it at 2133 how is this any different than having actual 2133 memory? I've run memory tests at 2133 with each of the memory sticks in slot 1. I also did 13 passes with both memory sticks in place. I have never had a single error. It still seems to take about 1.5 minutes to POST. If my memory isn't compatible wouldn't I experience some errors after boot up? The other odd thing is that this did not start immediately. If it were a memory compatibility issue wouldn't it have shown up right from the start?

Before I go out and buy new memory I'd like to be as sure as possible that the CPU, and motherboard are working correctly. Are there any diagnostics I could run to verify them?
 
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MeanMachine41

MeanMachine41

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The MB manufacturer has a QVL list of tested DIMM kits and it is from this list that you should choose your kit. Even though the specification of the MB indicates support for 3333MHz OC or even higher, does not mean the IMC (Integrated Memory Controller) on the chip has the strength to support the OC.
You are taking a gamble otherwise. You also generally pay more for OC memory and the difference when playing games is negligible.

When buying memory kits, I always choose from the QVL and buy from a reputable supplier who will allow a return, if they do not work. Many suppliers are only interested in getting stock out of the door with no consideration whether they will work and do not have a return policy. To me that's a NO GO.

Go here for your MB QVL and choose a kit that have been tested: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/X99A-SLI-PLUS.html#support-mem

You will notice they cover themselves adequately on the QVL.
Note:
1. When running XMP at DDR4 3200Mhz or higher, system stability depends on the CPU’s capabilities
2. When using 2 or more memory sticks, it is recommended to use memory module of the same brand, capacity, speed, memory chip.

Your issue has showed itself right from the start and you have conducted a Memtest that shows the DIMMs are in fact OK. Therefore it is the MB BIOS in conjunction with the IMC that is the problem. IMO

Can you return the memory kit you have.?
 
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droidling

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Unfortunately I wasn't aware of it until after you mentioned it in one of the early posts in this thread.

Yes and no. When I first built the computer it ran with the XMP at 3333. It booted all the way to the OS in about 30 seconds. That lasted for a couple of weeks. Then It started to have occasional BSOD for Bad_Pool_Caller and Page_Fault_In_Nonpaged_Area. I set the memory to 2133 while I was trying to trouble shoot that. After a few driver updates the BOSD problems seemed to stop. I ran it a couple more weeks at the slower memory speed to see if it was really stable. That's about the time that I noticed that it was taking a very long time to POST. I tried re-enabling the 3333 XMP profile. That was when I started having problems getting it to boot to the OS.

To me things seem to be getting worse over time.


That's the problem. I built this computer in August. The memory came from Newegg but I'm past their 30 day return. G.Skill would take it back if it was defective, I'm not too sure what they would say about exchanging it for a different kit.



 
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MeanMachine41

MeanMachine41

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If the modules are defective they would honor their warranty. They are not obliged to exchange them for something else unless they no longer manufacture that particular DIMM.
Not sure how you would stand with Newegg. Unfortunately going beyond their 30day return policy, they are not obliged to accept them but its worth a try.
IMO means (In My Opinion) as there are no guarantees till they are tried and tested.
 
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droidling

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I need to know what to buy to replace them. I don't want to make another mistake. So I wanted to run something by you. I'd like to get 32 GB of the fastest memory that I can run and still be able to upgrade at least to 64GB later.

The fastest memory that is on the QVL, and allows me to put 64GB in 8 slots, appears to be G.Skill 8GB DDR4-3200. The kit is F4-3200C14Q2-64GTZ. I'd like to get 32GB now with the option to upgrade later. Can I assume that the 32GB kit F4-3200C16Q-32GTZB is the same memory, just half as many of them? The timing is different but I'm not sure that isn't a function of the number of slots populated.

I guess the actual question is how can I buy only from the kits on the QVL, and avoid throwing out my current RAM if I want to upgrade?

I suppose the other question I should ask is should I stay away from the fastest memory I can use even if it is listed in the QVL?
 
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MeanMachine41

MeanMachine41

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MB Manufacturers may state that the MB supports higher than official rated frequency however, it is also the CPU you decided to install with the MB. It is the strength of the IMC (Integrated Memory Controller) on the chip that will determine if it can support frequencies that are considered an OC by JDEC memory standards.

As I said before, A kit of 32GB at 3200MHz is quite demanding of the IMC and not all CPUs will support it and very often BIOS intervention is required for Voltage and Primary Timings. And still no guarantee of success.

There is not much to gain using higher frequency DIMMs that are beyond what the MB supports when gaming and you also pay a premium.

My advice is to buy a kit at the MBs rated speed as listed in its specifications and a sized kit that suits your requirement.
If your system is mainly used for gaming and you have no requirement for heavy video editing or rendering, then you don't need more than 16GB and a 32GB kit is really unnecessary but also OK if you want to spend the money.

These are some of the tested kits that I would recommend.

Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK32GX4M4A2133C13 as a 32GB kit
Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK16GX4M4A2133C13 as a 16GB kit
G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 32GB F4-2133C15Q-32GRR as a 32GB kit
Geil Dragons GWB432GB2400C14QC as a 32GB kit

Also read this informative thread: https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?57038-Don%92t-combine-memory-kits!-The-meat-and-potatoes-overview
 
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droidling

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I've never really done much gaming. I was intrigued by a friends HTC Vive VR system. I may get one and use it with this computer, but that is not why I need large amounts of memory.

I need the memory for 3D model rendering. If you are not familiar with photogrammetry, it is a process of taking large numbers of hi-rez images of a single thing or place, determining common points between images, computing the spacial relationship between the images to form a 3D point cloud that is translated to a 3D mesh model. This is a process commonly done on rendering farms. The system I am building is really minimal. For me this is a hobby. Thus the budget is limited. Being able to go from 32GB to 64GB might mean cutting processing runs from a couple of days to overnight. A new processor and 128GB are not out of the realm of possibility in the next year if this build ends up being under powered.



This thread is the kind of thing I'm looking for. The main thing I took away from it is that I probably should have taken more time picking the motherboard. It just whetted my appetite for something with a bit more detail. I'd need more detail to be able to understand the balance of the CPU, and memory's potential, with the MB's bus limitations and make better purchasing choices.

I'm a software engineer, so I have had coursework in computer hardware architecture. It was 15 years ago. We didn't get into the complex memory bus that you have on a modern PC. It's time for a refresher. An "Everything you ever wanted to know about memory, but were afraid to ask" type article/book would be greatly appreciated.

Newegg did agree to take a return. It's for store credit. That doesn't mean I have to buy replacement memory from them, but it would be nice. I hope you have a better idea why I am looking for so much memory. If I really do need to buy it all at once I should be looking at 64GB kits. This kit looks just like what I'm looking for. Unfortunately it's currently out of stock.

HyperX HX424C15FBK4/64 DDR4 2400 2400 Micron 1.2V DS 16GB √ √ √ Newegg : $294.09

Anything wrong with Kingston for memory?



 
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MeanMachine41

MeanMachine41

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Things to take into consideration when rendering is not just a requirement for RAM memory size. You also need a fast multicore processor and software that will utilize all cores. I have an 8 core processor with 8MB of level 3 cache (more cores= more power) and 32GB of 1866MHz RAM that I use for CAD model rendering.
The GPU is also an important consideration where a fast card like TITAN X or GTX 1080 comes into the equation.

HyperX HX424C15FBK4/64 are excellent quality DIMMs. If not in stock at Newegg then you may get them at Amazon.
Well worth a try and good to here Newegg accepted the return.
 
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droidling

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Cool! I do CAD work too. I started out on Auto CAD 11, have used Pro-E, Solidworks, and now I'm on Inventor. Agisoft PhotoScan will bring my old Cad computer too it's knees for days on end. Currently, I'm learning Blender, and Fusion 360. You are right the rendering process, with surface textures and ray-tracing, puts heavy demands on the CPU, Memory, and GPU. It gets worse when you go from primitive based models to meshes. I almost bought the GTX1080. I hate budgets.:heink:


The return hasn't actually been credited yet. They probably don't even have the memory. Now I see that HyperX Fury 64GB is back in stock. Order now? ...Wait for the return to post?...won't get in trouble if I use some of the RMA money on a present for the wife....Newegg ad from this morning had cool set blood red kitchen knifes... Oo, Bad Idea.

Hopefully they will still be in stock in a few days.

 
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droidling

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Newegg bumped the price up $60 when they got stock in so I ended up getting the RAM from Amazon as you suggested. It seemed to fix the slow to POST problem. It's down to about 20 seconds. I believe that is reasonable. Thank you for all the time you spent on this. I really appreciate your help, and patience.

Now I am having other issues. Actually something that has occurred before, and I thought might be a result of my hardware problems. Sometimes it won't boot to windows. It will just restart once it gets to the Starting Windows screen. After it does this once if I try to start windows normally it will just keep doing the same thing. It will boot into safe mode. I found that doing a system restore will get it to boot again. Also putting a Windows 7 install CD in the optical drive allows it to boot to the SSD. I'd try reinstalling to the OS but it won't boot to the CD alone. The CD does the same thing as the SSD. It loads files then in the middle of the Starting Windows screen the power resets.

I'm thinking maybe a root kit? I don't want to double post this so I'll give you a chance to say no, if you think this still is a hardware issue, or you just want to go on torturing yourself. ;) If I don't here from you I will take this over to a more software related forum and see if they can help.

Thank you again for all the time you spent on this.




 
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