High temps with Matterhorn Pure on 4790K 4.4GHZ 1.178V

istenEM

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Feb 18, 2014
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Hey there. As i said in title, i overclocked my new 4790K on an ASUS Z97-AR with a Matterhorn Pure cooler. I setup the core voltage to offset - 0,100V , x44 freq, offset +0,001V cache and min-max x40 freq, LLC is on lvl 5, turbo mode disabled, intel speedstep and c6 both auto(or enabled). So after this running 10 rounds Linx and 10 minute prime both giving me 87C° with this cooler. Is it normal for this cooler? I have seen many people going and reaching 4.6GHZ with higher voltages with this cooler or with 212 EVO. Did i setup worng something in BIOS?
pics of bios: https://www.yogile.com/nhv36kig#41m

update: i turned off the turbo mode after the bios screens, but still warm..
 
Solution
Please download and run CPU-Z during LinX and observe the Core Voltage. I think you'll find that LinX as well as Prime95 version 28.1 are causing your Vcore to spike due to your BIOS settings, which in turn is causing high Core temperatures. This also occurs with Intel Burn Test (software not written by Intel), which is a LinX based utility.

For stability testing, I recommend Asus RealBench, which will not cause Vcore and temperature spikes - http://rog.asus.com/15852014/overclocking/realbench-v2-4-launched-with-x99-support/

For thermal testing, do NOT run any versions of Prime95 later than 26.6. Here's why:

Core i 2nd through 6th Generation CPU's have AVX (Advanced Vector Extension) instruction sets. Recent versions of...

istenEM

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I dunno the ambient temperature it's a room temperature so around 25C°. But the house is opened and has 2 coolers in it.

Its the 28.10 version of prime95 and 0.6.5 linx.
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
Please download and run CPU-Z during LinX and observe the Core Voltage. I think you'll find that LinX as well as Prime95 version 28.1 are causing your Vcore to spike due to your BIOS settings, which in turn is causing high Core temperatures. This also occurs with Intel Burn Test (software not written by Intel), which is a LinX based utility.

For stability testing, I recommend Asus RealBench, which will not cause Vcore and temperature spikes - http://rog.asus.com/15852014/overclocking/realbench-v2-4-launched-with-x99-support/

For thermal testing, do NOT run any versions of Prime95 later than 26.6. Here's why:

Core i 2nd through 6th Generation CPU's have AVX (Advanced Vector Extension) instruction sets. Recent versions of Prime95, such as 28.9, run AVX code on the Floating Point Unit (FPU) math coprocessor, which produces unrealistically high temperatures. The FPU test in the utility AIDA64 shows similar results.

Prime95 v26.6 produces temperatures on 3rd through 6th Generation processors more consistent with 2nd Generation, which also have AVX instructions, but do not suffer from thermal extremes due to having a soldered Integrated Heat Spreader and a significantly larger Die.

Prime95 V26.6 is perfect for thermal testing because it's a steady-state 100% workload which produces steady-state Core temperatures, and loads an i7 within 3% TDP at default settings.

Please download Prime95 version 26.6 - http://windows-downloads-center.blogspot.com/2011/04/prime95-266.html

Run only Small FFT’s for 10 minutes.

Use Core Temp to measure your temperatures - http://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp

Your Core temperatures will test 10 to 20C lower with v26.6 than with later versions.

Please read this Sticky: Intel Temperature Guide - http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-1800828/intel-temperature-guide.html

CT :sol:
 
Solution

istenEM

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Feb 18, 2014
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Holy ********* :D I totally forgot about this version thing, but i knew about it sometime. Thank you for this remind and for all of your help, now 74 degrees the highest temperature on one core, and the rest 3 cores are under 70. But still, after the LinX results, i dont really dare to go for a higher overclock with this cooler.
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
I wouldn't get stuck on LinX Core temperature results. Here's the thing:

Test utilities such as LinX, LinPack, Intel Burn Test and versions of Prime95 later than 26.6 load your CPU beyond 100% TDP at default BIOS settings. Intel tests their processors at 100% TDP with the intended default settings specified for motherboard manufacturers. So when the end user is running thermal and stability tests, the goal is to replicate Intel's test parameters as closely as possible using compatible test methods.

This means that when your 88 Watt TDP i7 4790K is installed with the stock cooler on a motherboard with default settings, then Prime95 v26.6 Small FFT's is run, a utility such as Core Temp or HWMonitor should show that Power (Watts) is within 3% of TDP, which is approximately 85 to 91 Watts. Of course, the values change when we modify BIOS settings and install after-market coolers to overclock our processors, but this shows that our test methods are appropriate.

Prime95 version 26.6 Small FFT's meets Intel's TDP specification more closely than any other utility. Also, Small FFT's is a steady workload which is perfect for evaluating thermal performance and Core temperatures. Just take a look at Section 13 in the Temperature Guide. You can see that the Charts show what a steady workload looks like compared to fluctuating workloads.

Asus RealBench is excellent for stability testing. Although it runs a fluctuating workload, it also runs your CPU within 3% TDP during peak workloads, but it uses a realistic AVX workload with code from HandBrake, yet provides peak Core temperatures consistent with Prime95 V26.6 Small FFT's.

The problem with this topic is that there's so much confusion concerning Intel's specifications, and thus so much misinformation out here, and so many people using so many different haphazard approaches to testing without any solid basis or understanding, that it's nearly impossible to compare apples to apples. This is why I wrote the Intel Temperature Guide. Give it a read.

CT :sol:
 

istenEM

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Feb 18, 2014
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Sure thing i'll read it. I have tried to download rogs realbench what u mentioned but it gives me an error. The download link not workin :/ I achieved now the 4.5ghz at 1.178V (in cpuz), in bios it is an offset -0.100 V for me. I have ran 10 rounds IBT on high and 20 min prime96 26.6 version, and the highest temp was 74C in it. looks stable.
So now i got a new question for you if u dont mind. I tried the 4.6 but after 5min prime95 it gives me a blue death. I tried to change the vcore to -0.090 but it is still BD. Now im on -0.070V offset, in cpuz its 1.198V and still getting BD. What should i change in Bios to get more stable without giving more V for cpu? I was wondering maybe i habe to change the manually setup 40x ratio of cpu cache to 42x maybe that would be stable? Or is there any other option to setup for getting more stable? Because i dont believe the core voltage the problem. I cant believe that if it was stable on 4.5ghz with 1.178V than why wouldnt be enough the 1.198v for the 4.6?
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
Vcore affects stability much more than any other parameter. A bump of just 10, 20 or 30 millivolts is not enough for another 100 MHz; you need 50 millivolts (0.050). And changing the Cache multiplier from 40x to 42x will only destabilize your processor.

Here's what's in the Temp Guide in Section 9 - Overclocking and Voltage

Overclocking is always limited by two factors; voltage and temperature. As Core speed (MHz) is increased above a level unique to each processor (silicon lottery), Core voltage (Vcore) must also be increased to maintain stability. This increases power consumption (Watts) which results in increased Core temperatures.

Overclocked processors using increased Vcore can run up to 50% above TDP. This is why high TDP air or liquid cooling is critical to keep Core temperatures under 80C. Overclocking should not be attempted with Vcore settings in “Auto” because BIOS will apply significantly more voltage than is necessary to maintain stability.

Even when using manual Vcore settings, excessive Vcore and temperatures may result in accelerated "Electromigration" - https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Electromigration

This prematurely erodes the traces and junctions within the processor's layers and nano-circuits, which will eventually result in blue-screen crashes that become increasingly frequent over time. CPU's become more susceptible to Electromigration with each Die-shrink. However, Intel's advances in FinFET technology has improved the voltage tolerance of their 14 nanometer architecture.

Here’s a list of the maximum recommended Vcore settings:

-> Core i

6th Generation 14 nanometer ... 1.375 Vcore
5th Generation 14 nanometer ... 1.375 Vcore
4th Generation 22 nanometer ... 1.300 Vcore
3rd Generation 22 nanometer ... 1.300 Vcore
2nd Generation 32 nanometer ... 1.350 Vcore
Previous Generation 32 nanometer ... 1.350 Vcore
Previous Generation 45 nanometer ... 1.400 Vcore

-> Core 2

Legacy 45 nanometer ... 1.400 Vcore
Legacy 65 nanometer ... 1.500 Vcore

When tweaking your processor near it's highest overclock, keep in mind that for an increase of 100 MHz, a corresponding increase of about 50 millivolts (0.050) is needed to maintain stability. If 75 to 100 millivolts or more is needed for the next stable 100 MHz increase, it means your processor is overclocked beyond it's capability.

With high TDP air or liquid cooling you might reach the Vcore limit before 80C. With low-end cooling you’ll reach 80C before the Vcore limit. Regardless, whichever limit you reach first is where you should stop and declare victory. Testing is explained in Sections 11 through 14.

Remember to keep overclocking in perspective. For example, the difference between 4.4 GHz and 4.5 Ghz is less than 2.3%, which has no noticeable impact on overall system performance. It simply isn’t worth pushing your processor beyond recommended Core voltage and Core temperature limits just to squeeze out another 100 MHz.

CT :sol:
 

istenEM

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Feb 18, 2014
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Okey. So now after 10minute prime95, on 4.6GHz and 1,202V it looks like this
cReKo


Is this 80C (only on one core) is still "safe" if i find out it is stable with programs and games or should i go back for the 4,5GHZ with 1,168V-1,178V settings? This might be my last question. And thank you for all your help.
 

istenEM

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Feb 18, 2014
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I went back for the 4.5GHZ. I rather stick with the safer one. The 100MHZ is not worth for me. By the way I'll get a complett water cooling system or atleast a compact liquid cooler before summer. I still can't download the RealBench like from nowhere because the link is unavailabe. So will look forward something else stabilty test because the IBT is running on veryhigh stable.
Again thanks for all of your help!