Gaming on i7 3930k, i7 970 and upgrading with PCIe 4.0 on the horizon for next year.

atomicWAR · Feb 14, 2017

So I am due for a upgrade to my main gaming rig an i7 3930k @4.2GHZ which drives a 4K Samsung HDR UHDTV with 2 GTX 1080s and a GTX 1050ti for physx. My wife is running the i7 970 @4GHZ for 1080P gaming with 2 GTX 980s and a GTX 570 for physx. Anytime I upgrade my main rig my wife inherits the old parts. I am leaning towards a Ryzen build with the SR7 1800x or 1700x. My wife would then get my i7 3930k. Then in a year upgrade again so my wife and my rigs are not to far apart performance wise.

My concern is with PCIe 4.0 launching next year the word on the street is PCIe 4.0 AIC will not work in PCIe 3.0 slot though a PCIe 3.0 AIC will work in a 4.0 slot. Also rumored is that GPU makers will be releasing PCIe 3.0 and 4.0 cards to help eliminate compatibility issues. Hearing of the new PCIe 4.0 connector part of me wonders if I shouldn't just wait a year for it to launch then just build 2 rigs at once. Avoiding the issue of having to buy PCIe 3.0 versions of my GPUs or knowing if i do buy a PCIe 4.0 card it can only be used in the newest machine.

I know in the past the difference in performance going from one generation of PCIe to another for gaming has been fairly small. So in theory I could keep buying PCIe 3.0 cards. My worry is though much like when motherboards switched from AGP to PCIe. The high end GPUs did not last long on the AGP side (like one or two generations if I remember correctly) and eventually AGP guys got stuck with mid or low level cards at best. Point being that was only a couple years for AGP to become near useless at the high end. I do not want to be in a similar boat with something I build this year. If i knew I could get top end cards (GTX XX80 or GTX XX70 for example) for at least 5 years I would not stress it but I think that is unlikely. What are your thoughts? Should I just upgrade come march or should I hold out and do two computers at once after PCIe 4.0 launches next year?

13thmonkey · Feb 14, 2017

take it all as rumour for now, i've not heard those rumours, in my opinion unless there is a fundamental physical issue as to why it can't be done they'll stick to the same slots.

I did hear a rumour about massive power delivery over the PCI-E slot, and it was quickly debunked, the copper traces simply can't cope.

photonboy · Feb 14, 2017

PCIe v4 AIC's will not work in a PCIe v3 slot.

RYZEN will need to sort out bugs. I would wait several months, in fact I'd wait for VEGA GPU's to launch before creating a new gaming build.

RYZEN I assume is PCIe v3? If so, I 'd wait for PCIe v4 from Intel unless AMD comes out with this as well.

herrwizo · Feb 14, 2017

My 2 cents would go to hold and wait. There is simply nothing out there worth upgrading for you, your rig is still high-end, regardless of not being the latest. CPU advancements have only been incremental for the past 6 years or so.

photonboy · Feb 14, 2017

herrwizo :

While I agree with that for him, he is also giving his wife the old build.

To be clear, I would:
1) WAIT and build a PCIe v4 system (motherboard and graphics card).

2) Give wife the i7-3930K + GTX1080 rig (don't build another PCIe v4 rig when your current one rocks)

atomicWAR · Feb 14, 2017

13thmonkey :

"PCI Express 4.0 will utilize a new connector, but the specification will be backward compatible mechanically and electrically with PCI Express 3.0, which means that it will be possible to use today’s add-in-cards in PCIe 4.0-based systems, but future AICs will not work with PCIe 3.0"

Kit guru
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/anton-shilov/pci-express-4-0-with-16gts-data-rates-and-new-connector-to-be-finalized-by-2017/

"PCIe 4.0 will usher in a new connector, but it is backwards compatible with PCIe 3.0 cards. But, PCIe 4.0-based cards will not work with the old PCIe 3.0 ports."

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/46190/pcie-4-feature-16gt-new-connector-arrive-2017/index.html

"Being a copper connector similar to 3.0 in materials used, it will be fortunately backwards compatible, meaning you’ll be able to use today’s add-in-cars in future 4.0-based systems, but future AICs won’t work with PCIe 3.0"

http://news.softpedia.com/news/new-pcie-4-0-with-16gt-s-will-probably-arrive-in-2017-485489.shtml

Seems like more then just light rumors and thus the reason I am concerned.

photonboy · Feb 14, 2017

13thmonkey :

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/46190/pcie-4-feature-16gt-new-connector-arrive-2017/index.html

"PCIe 4.0 will usher in a new connector, but it is backwards compatible with PCIe 3.0 cards. But, PCIe 4.0-based cards will not work with the old PCIe 3.0 ports."

*What this means though is that PCIe v4 graphics cards may not appear until 2018. There's no point in creating one unless it needs more bandwidth than what a PCIe v3 x16 slot can support (for single GPU configurations).

I saw x16 dropped to x8 electrical and still only slightly bottlenecked a Titan X (Pascal) card so I'm wondering if 2018 is being generours for new graphics cards. I think the motherboards might predate the PCIe v4 cards by at least a year.

**However, you may keep a good computer more than five years so it's probably worth waiting for a PCI v4 motherboard if you are in no rush to upgrade.

atomicWAR · Feb 14, 2017

This is all very helpful thanks. I know both systems are capable, especially the Sandybridge-E build, which is part of what makes this decision tough. If I got a Ryzen system and gave my wife the i7 3930k in theory, assuming GPU support is there, her system should be good another 3-5 years and the Ryzen likely good for 6-8. If PCIe 4.0 ends up like AGP to PCIe on the GPU front though I could find the i7 3930k/Ryzen in the toilet in 2-3 years time. So far my gut says wait but my urge to build a new PC is strong lol. Having other Pros, Prosumers, enthusiasts chime in is always helpful. thanks for your input and I look forward to more of it.

photonboy · Feb 15, 2017

Not sure what monitor you have, but if you're going to be spending a lot of money then I'd invest in a good GSYNC monitor.

Either:
a) GSYNC, 2560x1440, 27", IPS, 144Hz+
or
b) GSYNC, 3440x1440 (ultrawide), 35", IPS, 100Hz

This really makes a lot of games a lot SMOOTHER. You can also get away with a lower FPS. Some games require capping. For example, you may need to use NVInspector or some other method to cap most Bethesda games to 60FPS.

Dealing with 144Hz without GSYNC is a real hassle. For example, to avoid screen tear you need VSYNC. Most games can't hit 144FPS constantly thus you would need to use either Adaptive VSYNC, or "HALF" Adaptive VSYNC (which then synchs to 72FPS).

Of course you can just turn VSYNC OFF and deal with screen tearing but I hate that. Sometimes it's not bad and sometimes it's unplayably bad.

The adaptive method turns VSYNC ON or OFF automatically because you don't want VSYNC ON if you drop below the target (synch mismatch creates stuttering).

GSYNC simply works by having the monitor only update the frame after the GPU gives it a new frame. So frame time is variable, and this is what eliminates screen tear, reduces lag (no need to buffer with VSYNC), and eliminates the VSYNC stutter.

*My biggest pet peeve is tweaking to use VSYNC (I use 60FPS) then having a game drop below 60FPS and stutter later requiring me to retweak. Adaptive VSYNC does help a lot with that though, but FALLOUT 4 has issues that GSYNC would solve (I had to force "60.7FPS" in NVInspector to fix the bad stuttering. Come on Bethesda, I also had to fix FNV and F3 using the ifpsclamp=60 fix.

anyway, even with a GTX1080 the game drops below 60FPS and the stutter is suddenly pretty bad. I tried forcing Adaptive VSYNC but it's causing screen tear all the time. SIGH.

Supahos · Feb 15, 2017

On November 29, 2011, PCI-SIG announced PCI Express 4.0,[44] providing a 16 GT/s bit rate that doubles the bandwidth provided by PCI Express 3.0, while maintaining backward and forward compatibility in both software support and used mechanical interface.Additionally, active and idle power optimizations are to be investigated. Final specifications are expected to be released in 2017.

From Wikipedia even if PCI 4.0 fully takes over on day one it won't matter. Just keep doing what you're doing. As mentioned before the most powerful GPU in the world can't fully saturate a 16x lane today in PCI 3.0. It barely saturates an 8x lane which a 1080 doesn't do. We are a good ways from doubling performance to choke down a 16x lane

atomicWAR · Feb 15, 2017

@photonboy

I game primarily on a 55" Samsung Curved UHDTV with the faux HDR (8 bit panel with HDR10 support with 4:4:4 sub-sampling...looks awesome). So I am aiming for 60hz gaming, while my wife is on a 47" Samsung HDTV. We have been considering picking up a G-sync panel for the bedroom on her rig but neither one of us wants to sacrifice size. We'll see where we go with it. We may just have to wait for adaptive sync to hit big screens to keep us both happy. The fact we only need 60FPS is one of the laundry list of reasons for holding on to the PC's we have and just doing new builds when PCIe 4.0 hits. It's tough though because having 2 more cores AND an AMD rig would be nice. Going with Intel my last 3 builds was rough being an AMD fan.

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