Practical Value Build - Help needed in final decision

Luda Smokva · Mar 7, 2017

This is my first build and this site has helped tremendously in my research. I hope you will help me make some final decisions.
I am not a gamer (Blizzard games are my limit). My primary need is to run a wide variety of programs for business and design. This includes Photoshop, AI, ACAD, Office, Accounting programs (Quickbooks +), as well as a wide variety of programs for coding, editing, and design. I also use my system for remote access and simply ‘testing’ new programs.
Although I am VERY budget conscious at this time, I do not want to skimp on value. I want to put quality first, but I do not want a Lamborghini if I can’t go over 80 clicks. Value is key.
My primary focus was to obtain a decent graphics card as that is what is fueling this need to upgrade. Other issues/needs are: More 3.0 USBs, stable power source (value at idling – I rarely turn off my pc), and good circulation as the computer can be exposed to some hot temperatures during summer. Windows 7 compatibility is a must – don’t even talk to me about Win10. (I read somewhere that some hardware is for Win 10 only).
I also have an unfortunate tendency to get sidetracked very easily which often results in having multiple windows and programs running at the same time. I am too old to change so the computer must adapt

.
Here are my original choices which run beyond my initial budget ($900+ CAD). The square brackets contain possible substitutions from the individual who will do the actual build… not so sure about them but he suggested them as a ‘budget’ option of similar quality.
Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

CPU: i5 7500 [i5 6400]
Motherboard: ASRock H170M Pro4 [Gigabyte GA-H110M-A Micro ATX LGA1151]
RAM (2x8GB): Team Group Night Hawk-DDR4 [Geil EVO Potenza DDR4-2133]
Hard Drive: FireCuda SSHD [Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5” 7200RPM]
Graphics: RX480 4GB
Case: Cooler Master MasterBox 5 [Thermaltake Versa H21 ATX Mid Tower Case]
Power: CORSAIR CX series CX500 500W 80 PLUS BRONZE or SeaSonic S12II 620W 80+ Bronze [EVGA 500W 80+]

Sorry about length, but I wanted to be as clear as possible.

bambiboom · Mar 7, 2017

Luda Smokva,

In my view, the proposed system has a couple of problems: that the i5-7500 is non-hyperthreding which is a disavantage when running multiple applications and larger scale programs with multiple processes such as ACAD, plus you're paying for integrated graphics. In my view, a micro ATX motherboard is also not versatile enough, the MB format doesn't have space for extra PCIe slots. Also, if the system is left running continuously, the hardware is better more workstation-oriented.

Option 1: My tactic for the last several years is to buy used, high quality workstations one generation back. They're rugged, designed for high performance over long periods in the sort of applications you're using, and have support from the company. The cost savings is substantial for a higher quality system and best of all, the system arrives, you plug in the drives and graphics card, load programs, and back to work. How about:

Dell Precision T3610 Xeon w/ HT E5-1620 V2 3.7GHz 8GB DDR3 - No HDD No GPU > Sold for C $370.00 (31 Jan 2017)

That's an LGA2011 platform, meaning the CPU can be changed to up to an 8-core. The E5-1620 v2 is 4-core @ 3.7 /3.9Ghz, hyperthreading and has a good Passmark CPU mark of 9481 and single thread mark of 1926. The i5-7500 is rated correspondingly at 8200 /2130 so the single thread rate is higher, and would be better at gaming, but as it's not-hyperthreading, in workstation applications that are reasonably threaded, the Xeon E5 with hyperthreading and doubled memory bandwidth should work faster. The Xeon e5 also supports 40 PCIe lanes to the i5-7500's 16 lanes, meaning the T3610 could have two GPU's and a PCIe SSD, and.or dedicated sound card or RAID controller. A system running a lot of applications needs some breathing room.

The $370 price of the example T3610 means that the RAM can be added to have 16GB, the GPU can be a GTX 1060 6GB, a Crucial MX300 525GB SSD for the operating system, programs, and active projects, plus the WD Blue for storage.

I have a number of used workstations since 2009 and have had 100$ reliability, not a single component failure or data loss and these systems are quiet and made to run at full tilt all the time like servers..

It does take some patience and careful shopping, but the time overall is less than researching, assembling, and testing from individual parts and the cost /performance is impossible to improve upon.

Option 2: If you're not in immediate need, in a couple of months AMD will be releasing more of the new Ryzen series CPU's, the R5 6-cores and R4- 4-cores and these should have very good performance for the cost. The first set of Ryzens released, the Ryzen 7 8-cores, actually intimidated Intel into lowering prices on some i7's. The upcoming CPU's are still an unknown quantity but promising.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

CAD / 3D Modeling / Graphic Design:

HP z420 (2015) (Rev 3) > Xeon E5-1660 v2 (6-core @ 3.7 / 4.0GHz) / 32GB DDR3 -1866 ECC RAM / Quadro K4200 (4GB) / Samsung SM951 M.2 256GB AHCI + Intel 730 480GB (9SSDSC2BP480G4R5) + Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card + Logitech z2300 2.1 speakers > 600W PSU> > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit >> 2X Dell Ultrasharp U2715H (2560 X 1440)
[ Passmark Rating = 5581 > CPU= 14046 / 2D= 838 / 3D= 4694 / Mem= 2777 / Disk= 11559] [6.12.16]
[Cinebench R15 > CPU = 1031cb / Single Core = 142 cb / OpenGL= 127.39 fps / MP Ratio = 7.24x] 3.2.17

Analysis / Simulation / Rendering:

HP z620 (2012) (Rev 3) 2X Xeon E5-2690 (8-core @ 2.9 / 3.8GHz) / 64GB DDR3-1600 ECC reg) / Quadro K2200 (4GB) + Tesla M2090 (6GB) / HP Z Turbo Drive (256GB) + Samsung 850 Evo 250GB + Seagate Constellation ES.3 (1TB) / Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium PCIe sound card + Logitech z313 2.1 speakers / 800W / Windows 7 Professional 64-bit > > HP 2711x (27" 1980 X 1080)
[ Passmark System Rating= 5675 / CPU= 22625 / 2D= 815 / 3D = 3580 / Mem = 2522 / Disk = 12640 ] 9.25.16
[ Cinebench R15: CPU = 2209 cb / Single core 130 cb / OpenGL= 119.23 fps / MP Ratio 16.84x] 10.31.16

Luda Smokva · Mar 7, 2017

bambiboom :

Thank you for your advice. I actually considered this option quite seriously. I had access to some rebuilds - including workstations - at really good prices. I had to go to workstations because of the need for a 500w powersupply which the PCs simply did not allow for. The problem I ran into is that upon further research, I found that although the build was excellently priced, getting it to the performance/efficiency standard I wanted (graphics card, ram, storage, power), I would actually end up paying even more for a workstation that is essentially 5-7 years old. In addition, the older XEON technology actually had a lower performance ratio compared to the newer generation i5 or i7. So the bulk of my budget went into the heavy duty construction. Sort of like driving a Humvee in a downtown metropolis. Don't get me wrong, I recognize the value, but only if your budget allows it.
Example: DELL,PRECISION T3500, MT, XEON W3530 QUAD CORE, 2.8GHZ, DDR3, 6.0GB, 250GB, QUADRO 2000, B/I RAID CONTROLLER, DVD/RW, GB NIC, ONBOARD SOUND for $350+ + + + +

Add to that the fact that I much prefer Lenovo builds, you push that price point even higher. I figured if I was going to be spending that money, I wanted to invest in newer technology. I do not want to have to upgrade/change/fix in a couple of years. I guess I did not see that much value for the money.
I did get the impression that I should revisit the motherboard although I would question your suggestion that the 1050 brings better graphics performance than the 480 - not quite certain the specs support that.

Luda Smokva · Mar 10, 2017

BUMP.
Any suggestions out there regarding my mobo or CPU or any other aspect of my build? I was actually contemplating i5-6500 because of some better specs and then upgraded to i5-7500 only because I could get it for the same price.
My primary concern is stability and value. I would really like to purchase asap so if you have any suggestions it would be greatly appreciated.

jpe1701 · Mar 10, 2017

Sounds like you do a lot of multitasking. I would thing the I7 would be a better fit. Also if you are going Kaby lake, it is much easier to get an h270, b250, or z270 board because the 100 series boards need a bios update to run Kaby lake cpus. Also I would stick with the Seasonic psu, the cx line isn't that great. The cxm line is newer and would work well for a budget psu though.

Luda Smokva · Mar 10, 2017

jpe1701 :

Thank you. That is helpful.
I was leaning toward the SeaSonic or possibly the EVGA. So SeaSonic it is.
As for the CPU, good points. I suppose I can downgrade to i5 6500 - as I said, the only reason I went up was becuse the price was the same. While 6500 was a better value than the 6400, performance wise there wasn't that much of a difference with the 7500 or the i7... at least for a non-gamer. That's why I wanted my money going to other things like PSUs and cases that are often overlooked or downgraded. But the Kaby Lake did worry me a bit based on the 'budget' motherboard. I truly did not want to fiddle with the bios. Since it isn't a gaming computer and overclocking is not important, the feedback I've been getting is that the above mobos or any H110 would be sufficient. I simply worry that I'm making stupid compromises for a lousy $50-100.
I want a stable mobo, one with at least 2 good, functioning 3.0 USBs and sufficient amount of 2.0s. I've had a lot of problems in the past with the usb ports not functioning. I read the AS Rock is recommended by Tom's as a budget, but others say Gigabyte is a much better value. But then you have Gigabyte GA-H110N, GA-H110M-S2HP, GA-H110M-S2H GSM, GA-H110M-H, GA-H110M-A which all look the same. I thought about the Zs, but a lot of people simply say that for gaming and overclocking - absolutely, but that for regular work, you should not waste your money.
Ditto for the the hybrid SSHD. It comes in at around $100, while the Blue comes in at around $70.00. But many say that although faster, for my purposes, I really wouldn't notice any significant difference.
Any thoughts on the mobo and SSHD/HD?

jpe1701 · Mar 10, 2017

I agree that you probably won't notice much of a difference with the sshd. I haven't looked into their reliability but I know several of the very knowledgeable folks on here say they are not very reliable, and I would trust their judgement. I have a Blue as my data drive and it works very well and it is one of the most sold hard drives. As for motherboard if the 7500 is the same price, it will be simple to find a good motherboard on www.pcpartpicker.com . I like Asus, but they tend to cost more, Gigabyte and ASrock are all good brands. I tend to stay away from MSI. What I do is go to pcpartpicker then I go to system build, then add a motherboard and it will allow you to set parameters of what you want to look for.

jpe1701 · Mar 10, 2017

I forgot to add I'll be happy to help look too when you pick out some that you might like.

Luda Smokva · Mar 10, 2017

jpe1701 :

Ask and you shall receive! (At least I hope this works - the url button acted funny)
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/hhDmBP

I added the GA-H110M in the list just to fill in the slot. Thank you so much for your input. I don't want to spend too much on a mobo, but I don't want to cheap out either. I'm looking for the sweet spot.

jpe1701 · Mar 10, 2017

I will have a look when I get a moment but in the meantime I found out an interesting fact. Apparently neither the new kaby lake intel chips or amd ryzen support windows 7 or 8.

Luda Smokva · Mar 10, 2017

jpe1701 :

THAT'S what it was! I knew I read something or other about something being only supported by Windows 10 but I couldn't for the life of me remember what. That's why I specified the Win 7 OS. Well... at least we know that i5 7500 is out of the question regardless of the price. This is great. I feel like I'm almost done. Thank you so much, and whenever you find the time to review the details will be great.

jpe1701 · Mar 11, 2017

So this is more what I was thinking. It has 6 USB 3 on the back and a header for 2 more upfront. 6 sata ports instead of 4 so you can add more drives. More room for RAM in case you want to expand. And it has more expansion slots.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-6500 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($258.34 @ Vuugo)
Motherboard: ASRock H170A-X1 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($74.50 @ Vuugo)
Memory: GeIL EVO POTENZA 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2133 Memory ($129.99 @ Newegg Canada)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($62.75 @ Vuugo)
Video Card: Asus Radeon RX 480 4GB Dual Video Card ($223.98 @ DirectCanada)
Case: Thermaltake Versa H21 ATX Mid Tower Case ($48.95 @ Vuugo)
Power Supply: SeaSonic S12II 520W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($69.99 @ Newegg Canada)
Total: $868.50
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-03-11 00:26 EST-0500

Luda Smokva · Mar 11, 2017

jpe1701 :

Interesting. I probably never would have considered that choice as there aren't many reviews on line which is somewhat disconcerting. Still, the specs seem really good and the promo price is great! I certainly didn't read anything negative about it save from a comment from someone that sounded like he was whining more than commenting (those I dismiss).
Thank you so much. I believe I will take your advice.

I did find it interesting that you chose the Geil EVO Potenza RAM instead of the G.Skill V Series. I know both are considered really good, but G.Skill seems to be considered #1 across the board by far. I had thought for $5.00 I would be getting better quality, but you seem to feel that the difference is completely negligible. Again, good to know.
Thank you very much.

jpe1701 · Mar 11, 2017

I actually chose the Geil because you did so I was keeping it. They are both reputable brands so it shouldn't be a problem. Glad I could help.

jpe1701 · Mar 11, 2017

The motherboard was the toughest. I was trying to hit that sweetspot you were going for and so I was thinking outside the box when I chose it. I think it will serve you well.

Luda Smokva · Mar 12, 2017

jpe1701 :

The more I look at the mobo, the more I agree with you. There are some very nice features and any lower scores seem to be geared mostly toward the overclocking feature which does not interest me one bit.
That is why I actually feel really bad bugging you about yet another issue and have tried my darnedest to figure out an answer on my own - unfortunately to no avail. So here goes... should I be purchasing additional fans for this build? Or other peripherals that perhaps are not as well addressed? Ie. Better sound card, wifi... etc. And am I correct in assuming that there isn't any HDMI connection available?
Usually I can gather this info through various reviews that identify strengths and weaknesses, but with the limited reviews available added to my limited ability to understand some spec info I just can't make a good judgement call.
If you choose to ignore this question, I will totally understand. You've been very helpful and I don't want to waste anymore of your time.

jpe1701 · Mar 12, 2017

No problem at all. I truly enjoy helping people with their computer issues, that's why I am on here every day. If you are an audiophile you can add a sound card, but the onboard audio is pretty good these days and it's not necessary. The hdmi connection is on your graphics card., I didn't notice that the motherboard onboard graphics didn't have an hdmi port actually but with a gpu you won't need it. And for fans it looks like you have room to add 2 120mm fans in the front for intake and there is 1 that comes preinstalled in the back for exhaust. I would purchase a couple 120mm fans as cooling is important. The way I usually checkout the specs of computer components is to check out the product page on newegg under the specifications tab.

jpe1701 · Mar 12, 2017

I forgot about wireless. It really depends on how far from the router you are and what's in between the computer and the router. I went with an intel pcie wireless ac card but you can find cheaper ones that work just as well. the pcie adapters i think give better speeds and signal. the other choice is usb adapters which tend to be less expensive but they are not as fast and get less signal. I made sure the motherboard had room to add a pcie wireless adapter just incase you wanted one actually.

Luda Smokva · Mar 12, 2017

jpe1701 :

Thank you for that. The fans will definitely be added to my parts list. (FYI, found the mobo at Canada Computers for 59.99 after mail-in rebate! If not for you, I would be too scared to buy it worrying they were trying to dump it.

)
Re: HDMI... huh. I could have sworn that connector came from motherboard. Just goes to show one always has to review the basics. Thanks for a good lesson.
Wireless isn't that important really, it is a desktop after all and will be hard wired. But your info is good to know - I have an ASUS laptop whose wireless has become extremely unstable since I upgraded to win 10. I will definitely refer to your valuable tidbits when the time comes to turn my attention to making it function properly again.
I know I sound like a broken record, but thanks again for all your help. After the build is complete, I will definitely update this thread regarding the results, and some possible insight into the mobo. It is lacking reviews so others may find it helpful. It is the only helpful thing I can think of doing to thank people like you who are so willing to offer your expertise.

Practical Value Build - Help needed in final decision

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