Coffee Lake and Zen2 Pinnacle Ridge IPC and Clock Speed?

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Spring1898

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Hello All, been perusing some of the limited info on Coffee Lake and Zen 2 and am curious about the general expectations. Of course there are only rumors now, but I am sure there are some out there who can make well-educated guesses.

Coffee lake is still 14nm, so are there supposed to be IPC improvements or only Clock speed increases? (maybe a 4.8ghz base clock 5ghz turbo?)
Is it likely the 6 core variants will run at the same speed as the 4 core variants might they be slowed down like the 2011's?
How would a 6/6 stack up to a 4/8? It seems there are even a number of games that benefit from >4 threads now.
If they cost $50-$100 more than a 4 core how would that affect your purchase process?

How much Zen2 performance improvement could be expected?
A 4.3ghz base clock with a 10% IPC improvement would be very competitive with Skylake/Kaby lake (provided optimization continues) especially since Zen2 is supposed to be compatible with Zen1 chipset/motherboards.
That might be asking a lot, but anything less seems an underwhelming upgrade from Zen1, and a bigger gap from Coffee lake than currently exists between Zen1 and Kaby/Skylake
An increase in overclock-ability would be nice.


Just some thoughts from a lowly builder, with no education in computer science.
 
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atljsf
something that people doesn't take into account is how a chip is made, it is not build, like a part on a pc, soldiering parts, the chips are basically printed, like ink over paper

print on such small sizes, of course will make lots of dead cpus or cpus with many cores dead

but their 10 and future 7 and 6 nm technologies to print layer over layer, well, we should be on 10 nm since the last year but only 14 is sort of working

both intel and amd is offering lots of cpus with dead cores, they are facing the same technology limitations i think

well intel more than amd, intel has their own factories, amd pays someone else to do it for them but same applies

atm the only direct response intel can do is offer cheaper and faster i7 and the...
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atljsf

atljsf

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from the little i have found on coffee lake, it will be the same as current 7th gen cpu, perhaps 5 to 10% more performance, not sure, perhaps less, they are focused on power consumption, more than on speed atm, coffee lake seems to be more oriented to laptops

zen2, not sure is far or near

they haven't released the ryzen 3 line which will be what amd will seel the most to oems and people in general, also, where is the apus for am4?

they haven't showed the server offerings, that should happen next month ideally, but there is still many things to be presented so talk about zen 2, is too soon i think

so the zen 2 is not really close, the coffee lake is closer but shows not big improvement

something tells me that most youtubers will say that if you have a 6th or 7th gen intel cpu, you will not need this one, at all

i expect the same you mention from zen 2, a nice clock bump, 4.2 as base sounds viable, turbo to 4.5 on the possibly called 2000 series cpus with 8 or 12 cores :D

intell will charge 2000 for those 12 cores they seem to be ready to offer i think, the 12 from amd, surely will be over 600 dollars, what i would buy? 3 ryzens or one intel? :D
 
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Spring1898

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That is kind of the direction I thought Coffee Lake was going, more efficiency but perhaps no IPC gains.
If that is the case, then I agree that it might not be worth upgrading from Kaby lake and skylake for most applications, for just a clock increase, unless the clock increase is substantially higher.
I might consider upgrading my Skylake build if it does, as most skylake seems to overclock to around 4.6ghz, (kaby lake to around 5.0 when delidded) which if Coffee lake does 5.0 turbo boost and can be overclocked to 5.2-5.3ghz with the same IPC means a solid 15% max performance improvement

That also gives AMD an option to close the IPC gap.

Last I heard in March, Zen2 was slated for an early 2018 release, which probably would be ideal since Intel moved up their line. The Ryzen APU's are also supposed to come out with some of the Zen2 upgrades, so we may hear more later this year.

But mostly I was just asking what a "typical" upgrade to the architecture might be expected. Its new architecture, so we have nothing to compare it to history wise, but it just seems like 5% or less would not be significant enough, and >15% seems unlikely as that would be or above Intel. Compound that with the clock speed deficit, is where I think it might go.

I think on the road map they mention 8 core as being the standard still for Zen2, so I don't know if we will see a 10 or 12 on the consumer side of things.
 
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atljsf

atljsf

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both sides has mentioned it already

so 12 cores is not impossible at all

especially when you consider the 16 cores cpus for servers with dead cores, those will end in hands of the normal consumers

it will happen and could be this same year
 
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kgt1182

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Coffee Lake at 14nm will be the 4th iteration of 14nm, may see stock 4.5 GHz clocks. Cannonlake is what Intel enthusiasts should be looking towards. At 10nm large clock gains are to be seen. Look at the 4790K vs the i7 7740K. Exynos 8895 could hit 4 GHz at 10nm, 3 GHz at 14nm. Stock 5GHz for i7 8700K with Skylale IPC is very likely.

Zen+ (Pinnacle Ridge), will either be on 7nm or 10nm. Earliest is by 2020 for 10nm Ryzen desktop CPUs or 2023 for 7nm Ryzen desktop CPUs. AMD usually has 1 or 2 (at most) desktop CPUs per platform, and usually capitalise more on the mobile and server market, where they have multiple sucessive iterations.
 
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Isokolon

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From what I've heard 10nm gives Intel major headaches since the chips are a pain to get stable, to last and the error quota is quite high.
That's why they're doing coffee lake all along.

I highly doubt we'll see any IPC increase with coffee lake, the architecture is pretty much at its limit. Personally I don't think we'll see much of a clockspeed increase either
What we'll probably will be seeing is a threads increase. But I'm curious to how they'll do it. Pushing the i7 to a 6c/12t CPU and the i5s to 6c/6t, turning i3s to real quadcores would be my dream and would make sense to counter Ryzen effectively. But I'm not sure they're ready to make such drastic changes which in response ruins their whole enthusiast lineup
On the other hand, who in their right minds would buy an i5-7500/7400 if you get a Ryzen 1600 for the same kind of money...
Making their chips run cooler could very well be a priority for coffee lake as KabyLake runs way too hot imo, especially looking at a potential use in laptops.

As for Zen2....Ryzen just released. It's too soon to tell what the next gen will bring.
Probably a clockspeed upgrade.
 
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Spring1898

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I have a feeling that the core and thread increase in coffee lake will be limited to 2 SKU's, a locked and unlocked version of the i5 and i7. For this iteration it seems unlikely that the entire line will get additional cores.

While this does kind of clash with Intel's own line, and I haven't been able to figure out what they are doing with the new X series, it is a shot across the bow at AMD.
Since the process is still 14nm, the die will have to increase (barring losing features) in physical size for the additional 2 cores, supposedly around 15%, which means 15% raw cost increase at least. So about $50 over the 4 core variants. That could mean around $300 for an i5 6 core, and $400 for i7 6/12

Even without an IPC increase, (and assuming the 6 core clock speeds stay pretty much in line with the 4 core counterparts) that means they will virtually outperform all of Ryzen 5 for pure gaming (and the i7 in gaming/streaming). The decision between the 2 platforms will back track to those who absolutely need the extra threads of Ryzen, or those who simply cannot (or don't wish) to afford the Intel series, which is right where intel wants to be.

I would even guess, the superior IPC and Clock Speed of the i7 6/12 will outperform current Ryzen 7 in everything but applications which evenly scale with increased thread count. Even then, the IPC and Clockspeed advantage will bring the sides much closer than now with the 4/8 vs 8/16.


AMD is likely aware of this, and why they were talking about Zen2 even before Zen1 was released.
Zen2 is supposed to have IPC increases, and Zen+ should be debuting that plus additional features later this year when it releases

My point in the original post was that Ryzen has to meet certain criteria in its next architectural iteration to change the field back to something more in their favor after what Coffee lake will do.
 
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atljsf

atljsf

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something that people doesn't take into account is how a chip is made, it is not build, like a part on a pc, soldiering parts, the chips are basically printed, like ink over paper

print on such small sizes, of course will make lots of dead cpus or cpus with many cores dead

but their 10 and future 7 and 6 nm technologies to print layer over layer, well, we should be on 10 nm since the last year but only 14 is sort of working

both intel and amd is offering lots of cpus with dead cores, they are facing the same technology limitations i think

well intel more than amd, intel has their own factories, amd pays someone else to do it for them but same applies

atm the only direct response intel can do is offer cheaper and faster i7 and the release of i9 cpus

surely will be xeons with damaged parts with higher clockspeed but still a response to amd, who will release the x399 platform and cpus with 12 or 16 cores, supposedly
 
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