Will QoS work in this configuartion? Modem>unmanaged switch>router (with QoS optimized for gaming and workstation)

CorruptedPix_ · Jul 13, 2017

I am thinking of redoing my network in my house and i'm thinking of doing it like this.

Modem>unmanaged switch (Asus XG-U2008) (The 2 10Gbit ports would connect to my workstation and my NAS, the others would be run trough the walls to the second floor and into all the rooms) Then, from the second floor >Router (I would like to setup QoS here for wifi devices) OR I would connect the 10Gbit connection from my workstation directly to the router and connect my workstation to the router (wired) and enable QoS to give the full speed to my workstation at all times, then, the remainder bandwidth would be sent to the WAP's
Also, I would like to setup some google wifi AP('s) maybe 2 if I don't get full coverage. Should I connect these to the router or to the wall plugs on the second floor?

Can someone tell me if this would work and how to improve if neccesary?

Thanks
CorruptedPixl_

bill001g · Jul 13, 2017

You are likely over analyzing this. It is extremely unlikely you can effectively use a 10g port. Both your NAS and your computer would have to have extremely fast disk systems. The disk quickly becomes the bottleneck in most systems.

Unless you have multiple machines needing high speed access a NAS is kinda not needed you would just keep the data on the main machine and share it using normal file sharing.

Your cabling must go modem-router-switch. The router is the device that shares the single IP the ISP gives you.

QoS is a waste of time in your case for many reasons. First only the router can do QoS and it only does it WAN-LAN...ie traffic going to the internet. It can not restrict traffic between lan ports or even between and wifi.

Next lets say you had some high end manged switch and even those are extremely limited in their QoS ability. You do not need QoS unless you have a bottleneck. You would have to actually have traffic that is exceeding the 10g port capacity of your NAS. Your end pc would have to have some way to actually transfer 10g and then another pc say try to use 1g. It is highly unlikely that you end stations can use that much traffic. It would be more likely if you had a 20 machines all trying to get 1g.

Still QoS likely does no good. The queue or data bottleneck will be in the disk system of the NAS. It would be the NAS that would have to have some way to choose which data it wants to process, the 10g port will not be the problem.

CorruptedPix_ · Jul 13, 2017

Okay, thanks for the quick answer. I do have another question.
I have an old router (Netgear Wnr2000v4)wich only sends out a 2.4GHz signal. I am thinking of buying the Asus RT-N66U because it can also send 5GHz. Wich one should i connect between the modem and the switch?

CorruptedPixl_

Solandri · Jul 13, 2017

CorruptedPix_ :

1. Unless your modem is a combination modem/router, plugging a switch into it probably will not work. It'll work if you're on a business account and have paid for multiple public IP addresses. But otherwise, only the first device plugged into a modem will get an IP address. This is why the first (only) device plugged into a modem is usually a router - the router gets the public IP address and uses NAT to share it with everything on your network. If the modem has a single ethernet port, then it is a modem. If it has 4 LAN ports and/or WiFi, then it is a combination modem/router. Since you're talking about plugging a switch into the modem, I'm guessing it's a true modem and you'll want the only device you plug into it to be a router, not a switch.

2. You don't have to worry about other devices on a switch (or the extra LAN ports on a router, which are really combination router/switches) stealing bandwidth from each other. If you've got four computers A, B, C, and D connected via Gigabit to a single switch, and you're transferring data from A to B at Gigabit speed, that doesn't affect computers C and D. The switch can simultaneously handle another Gigabit speed transfer from computer C to D. That's the whole point of a switch - it sends data only to the destination device. Way back in the 1990s when we still used hubs (which sent the data to all devices in the hopes that one was the destination), we had to worry about using up all the bandwidth. But with a switch the bandwidth to each port is independent and not affected by how much traffic the other ports are handling. (Up to something called the backplane or fabric throughput, which is the sum total of all traffic on all ports the switch can simultaneously manage. Usually it's 5-20x the max speed of a single port.)

3. Because of (2), QoS on a switch or LAN-based router is pointless unless you've got multiple streams of traffic going through a single choke point (e.g. one 10 Gbps cable connecting switch 1 to switch 2). The typical home user doesn't have enough devices to encounter this problem, so I've only seen this needed in business networks.

4. The main choke point is your Internet connection. That's where you might need QoS - to divvy up your Internet bandwidth. And to do that, your primary router (or modem/router) - the one plugged into your modem - needs to be the one running QoS.

CorruptedPix_ :

If you plan to have just one WiFi network, then you should plug the RT-N66U into your modem. It can provide by 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz WiFi, so it should be the one plugged in.

If you plan to have two LAN networks each with their own WiFi, then you'll have to decide. Typically the private network is downstream from the public network (Internet > NAT to public network > NAT to private network). So you'd want the Netgear (serving the public network) to be plugged into the modem, and the Asus (serving the private network) to be plugged into the Netgear.

However, most new WiFi routers have guest network capability built into them. The RT-N66U does. So you can just plug the Asus router into your modem, use its LAN ports and private WiFi for your personal stuff, and tell any visitors at your house to use the guest WiFi network. No need to have two routers.

The caveat is that Asus has had a long-running bug with their routers and 2.4 GHz networks. The private 2.4 GHz WiFi doesn't work reliably with some devices. The 5 GHz works fine, and the 2.4 GHz guest network works fine. It's just the 2.4 GHz private network which is spotty. So don't throw away your Netgear router just yet. When you get the Asus router, test all your devices with it. If one of them is not capable of 5 GHz and encounters problems with the Asus router's 2.4 GHz private network, then you'll have to shut off the Asus router's private 2.4 GHz WiFi, and use the Netgear router as a 2.4 GHz access point (assign it a static IP address, turn off its DHCP server, plug one of its LAN ports into the Asus' LAN ports, and leave its WAN port empty)..

CorruptedPix_ · Jul 13, 2017

Solandri :

I just went and took a loot at my current modem and it is a Modem/router combo.
Does this change the way I should set my network up?
I don't get why the guest network would come first

Solandri :

The netgear has a max of 300Mbps while the Asus has a max speed of 1Gbps, shouldn't the netgear be plugged into the asus one? And why would you serve the guest network before your private one?

I tought I understood networking, apparently I don't. But I love learning.

CorruptedPix_ · Jul 13, 2017

Forgot to add this to the last post.

I want to hook up some Ip camera's in the future. Should I connect them to the switch or to one of the routers? If so, wich one?

Solandri · Jul 14, 2017

CorruptedPix_ :

If it's a modem/router combo, it should have 4 LAN ports. So you probably don't need the switch connected to it.

I don't get why the guest network would come first

It's simpler to set it up that way.

Internet <=router=> LAN 1 <=router=> LAN 2

Each router has a firewall preventing stuff on the left from accessing stuff to the right. So computers on LAN 1 can access the Internet and other computers on LAN 1. But the Internet cannot access computers on LAN 1.

With a second router, computers on LAN 2 can access computers on LAN 1 and the Internet. But computers on LAN 1 cannot access computers on LAN 2.

So LAN 2 is the most protected network, so it is the best candidate to be your private network. LAN 1 is less protected, so it becomes your guest network.

The netgear has a max of 300Mbps while the Asus has a max speed of 1Gbps, shouldn't the netgear be plugged into the asus one? And why would you serve the guest network before your private one?

Unless your Internet speed is faster than 300 Mbps, it won't really matter.

CorruptedPix_ · Jul 14, 2017

Ok, thanks for the explaination of the Lan setup.
You say that I probably don't need the switch, wich it true i think, but then how do I connect my nas to my network, and where in the chain? Also, can I keep the 10Gbps link between my nas and workstation?
I want to link up pretty much every room in my house with an ethernet port, would I need a switch for that? There are 6-8 rooms I wanna hook up.
Or could I seperate the rooms between router 1 and router 2?
What would you do in this situation? Would you go buy a switch and have all the cables from the whole house connected at 1 point (the switch) or would you split them up over the routers? (if that even works)

Solandri · Jul 14, 2017

CorruptedPix_ :

In those cases, yes you want a switch. In the first case, the switch will allow devices connected to it to communicate at the switch's speed (10 Gbps) even if the router is old and slow (e.g. 100 Mbps). In the second case, the number of ports you want to connect exceed the number of LAN ports on the router, so you'll need a switch to add more ports.

Just be mindful of any bottlenecks you produce (the switch only communicates with the router or other devices via one port). And if you're going with two LANs, you probably want the better/faster stuff on the private LAN.

Or could I seperate the rooms between router 1 and router 2?
What would you do in this situation? Would you go buy a switch and have all the cables from the whole house connected at 1 point (the switch) or would you split them up over the routers? (if that even works)

Routers are only needed if you want separate LANs. So if you want the upstairs rooms to be able to communicate with each other, and you want the downstairs rooms to be able to communicate with each other, but you don't want the upstairs rooms to communicate with the downstairs rooms, then you need two routers. One for the upstairs, one for the downstairs.

This type of configuration is pretty rare in home use though. I've only seen it as a guest / private LAN setup. But like I said, most modern routers include a guest WiFi network. So you shouldn't need a guest LAN unless some of your guests need to plug in with an ethernet cable (maybe you throw LAN parties with your gaming friends and don't want them snooping around your private network).

CorruptedPix_ · Jul 14, 2017

I wrote down a new setup with the info that I got from above, It looks a bit like this:

Modem/router>------<Asus XG-U2008 switch>---**1---------<Netgear router (If the Asus router's range is sufficient to reach the whole house then I will use this as a guest network Or I will set this up as a secondary private with guest mode enabled to supply my garden with wifi)>------<Asus router for 5 and 2.4G network around the house (If the asus range isn't sufficient I will probably buy one or two google wifi's and connect them to the asus router or via the wall plugs to the switch)>

**1: [This represents all the wall plugs, nas and workstation connections to the switch]

Does this look like a good setup?
Are there any obvious bottlenecks?
Would you recommend putting the switch before the routers or after the netgear or even the asus one?

If this all looks good then this is what i'm gonna use.

Is there a way I can setup the netgear router for my garden as a "range extender" but have it not setup as a second lan?

Also, If I need to port forward my second pc, wich is connected to the router at the end of the chain, will I have to port forward on every router?

Solandri · Jul 14, 2017

CorruptedPix_ :

We're at a bit of a disadvantage because you haven't told us what it is that you hope to accomplish. What is wrong with just using the modem/router as your main Internet router, and connecting everything to it? Why do you feel the need to add both the Netgear and Asus routers to your network? I was throwing information at you in hopes that you'd learn enough to decide for yourself what's the best way to set all this up. But if you're going to straight-out ask us what's the best way to set it up, we need to know what it is exactly that you want to do. Why did you feel you needed QoS? Were you experiencing network slowdowns?

Is there a way I can setup the netgear router for my garden as a "range extender" but have it not setup as a second lan?

Yes it's usually possible to use a router as a range extender (access point with a LAN connection to your main network, repeater, or bridge). But whether it's possible and the exact procedure will depend on the model router. It's considerably easier if the router supports third party firmware like DD-WRT or OpenWRT or Tomato.

Also, If I need to port forward my second pc, wich is connected to the router at the end of the chain, will I have to port forward on every router?

Yes. That's the disadvantage of burying your computers under multiple layers of subnets. If you want to port forward something to the deepest subnet, you have to port forward through each router. So if you don't actually need all those subnets, it's best just to avoid them and go with a single LAN.

What is it that you're trying to do?

CorruptedPix_ · Jul 15, 2017

Let me explain what my current situation is.
In my current house, I have a modem/router wich is connected to a Powerline adaptor, then, on the first floor, another PA and it's directly connected to my netgear router wich sends out an 2.4Ghz network and direct connects my workstation.
I pay for 200Mbps but only get 48-80Mbps at my workstation. I want to improve that in my next house, I want to get (close to) 200Mbps. I'm moving in the next few months and want to know how I should set that up there. (I will probably be building my house instead of buying one, which will give me the possibility to wire all the rooms at once and that will be easier to do)

So, what I'm trying to accomplish is Full wireless coverage in my house (2.4 and 5Ghz) and in my garden. In every room at least 1 Ethernet port in the wall. I also want to add some ip camera's.

I'm thinking of buying the asus RT-N66U because it has 5Ghz in addition to the 2.4Ghz wich only the netgear has.
Because I will have another router, I was thinking of setting it up as a guest network as you suggested.
I tought a switch would be handy because I would have all the wall plugs in one location. Also, I would place the router in the middle of my house (first floor) to get full coverage, wich wouldn't be a perfect place to have all the wires come out.

I checked DD-WRT for the netgear router but it's not supported.

I want to be able to stream HD (or even 4k in the future) video everywhere in my house.
I wanted to setup QoS for my workstation because I want to give it priority above all other devices to access the internet.

The Asus XG-U2008 looked like a solid option as a switch, and it has 2 10 Gigabit ports, wich I would connect my nas and workstation to.

I'm wondering now, I'll have 2 WD red drives in my nas, will the 10 Gigabit ports even matter? Or will a Gigabit port be sufficient because HDD's can't write as fast?

If I don't need the 10 Gigabit switch, can you recommend a switch with enough ports and that isn't too expensive?

I hope you kind of understand what i'm trying to accomplish.

bill001g · Jul 15, 2017

So if you are building a house where you can put wiring in. Put a ethernet jack in the ceiling of all the rooms. You can then use a PoE powered AP to get good wireless coverage in your house. The AP look like smoke detectors in most cases You could then put in a central switch that has PoE on some ports and power the AP remotely and provide UPS to all with a single UPS.

You could run cat6a or even cat6 cable if your runs are less than 50 meters( almost all houses). This would allow for 10g in the future. I would use all cat5e keystones and patch panels since those are cheap to swap out if you ever really needed 10g. Be very sure you get 100% copper cable nothing else is certified.

Then again we never know where technology will take us in 10 years so running the cable though conduit so you can easily replace it is a best option if you want to go to the expense. Then again the conduit is cheap if you can run it yourself rather than pay a electrician.

1g is more than enough bandwidth for almost any current application. Most video is highly compressed so even 4k does not even cause a blip on a 1g network. Even uncompressed 4k will not exceed a gigabit.

I would not worry about the guest network or if you do run it off only the main router do not worry about coverage for the guest. It get highly complex to provide secure guest networks when you are running mulitple device. If you use AP like ubiquiti sells and a managed switch you can use vlans but your router must also support vlans.

I would ignore QoS if you have a 200m internet connection...actually any size connection...util you have a actual problem. It is hard to get set up to really work and I have found many router will actually bottleneck the connection with cpu load on very fast internet connection. Seems they can't keep up when you have complex QoS loaded. Seems the hardware NAT assist is not used in certain configurations. Unless someone is running torrents in your house it is highly unlikely you will use a 200m internet. For whatever reason you will find that servers on the internet ether have caps or other bottlenecks that you will hit well before you can use up a 200m+ internet.

Solandri · Jul 15, 2017

CorruptedPix_ :

Sounds like the bottleneck is the powerline adapter.

If you're actually building the house, the best solution I've seen is to run conduit to the wall between two adjoining rooms. Run two Ethernet cables initially (one per room) but make sure the conduit is big enough to take 4 cables (two per room). The conduit will allow you to pull out and replace bad cable, and will future-proof you by allowing you to replace Ethernet with fiber optic in the future.

Putting the outlets on adjoining walls between rooms reduces the amount of conduit you need to run. Although understandably some rooms may need their own conduit to a separate wall just because that location works better for the room layout.

All the conduit should lead to a central closet or room, preferably where your phone or cable line comes out so your modem is right next to it. Mine is at the center of my house where my TV tuner, Roku, and projector are all located. The Ethernet cables connect to a patch panel in the wall. Then I plug cables from my switch into the patch panel. I have 11 cables going to the rooms, but don't use them all so right now an 8-port switch is sufficient.

https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Unshielded-Wallmount-Compatible-TC-P24C6/dp/B003SLQAUC

So, what I'm trying to accomplish is Full wireless coverage in my house (2.4 and 5Ghz) and in my garden. In every room at least 1 Ethernet port in the wall. I also want to add some ip camera's.

The IP cameras might be a problem if you get about 20 or more. Each one will send about 5 Mbps of traffic (though newer cameras with higher than 1080p res might take more). If you're using a large number of IP cameras and they're constantly recording (say, on your NAS), you may want to place them on a different subnet so their traffic doesn't interfere with other traffic. Also, most IP cameras use PoE (power over ethernet), and having them on a separate network makes it easier to manage your PoE distribution (get a PoE switch).

And since you're building the house, I'd definitely run Ethernet cable to all the IP camera locations as well. Preferably with conduit (in case a cable goes bad). But you probably won't need to future-proof yourself since the cameras have a fixed max bandwidth and Ethernet will likely be cheaper than fiber for several decades. Do not get wireless IP cameras unless absolutely necessary. They waste WiFi bandwidth, are easy for a thief to disrupt, and you still need to plug them into a power source so they're going to have a cable going to them anyway. Why not just make that cable an Ethernet cable.

I'm thinking of buying the asus RT-N66U because it has 5Ghz in addition to the 2.4Ghz wich only the netgear has.

Just be mindful of the Asus 2.4 Ghz bug I explained in an earlier post. Personally I think I'd recommend the Netgear R7000 over the Asus because of the bug. But the Netgear is also a little flaky with DHCP lease renewals (seems to be a short gap of about 5-10 seconds during renewals on some devices, causing them to briefly lose Internet access every 24 hours). Either way, 5 GHz is a good upgrade to 2.4 GHz.

Depending on when you're going to build the house, you may want to wait. The FCC opened up a new higher band (70 GHz I think?) last year. So I'd expect new routers supporting that band to start showing up around 2018, and being commonplace by 2020. 70 GHz suffers from attenuation due to atmospheric oxygen, so its range may be worse than 2.4 GHz, but you won't get interference from your neighbors. Bandwidth is also supposed to be higher (I'm hearing 10 Gbps, which would translate into about 100-250 MB/s real-world speed).

If your modem/router has WiFi which is adequate for your needs, I'd wait until you actually build the house before buying a router for it. OTOH if you need the higher speed of 5 GHz now, then you should probably buy it now.

Because I will have another router, I was thinking of setting it up as a guest network as you suggested.

Bzzt. Wrong answer. Set up a guest network if you need it, not because you have another router.

As I said, most modern routers include guest WiFi capability. If you don't need a guest LAN, I'd suggest just using guest WiFi. It's simpler and more secure since you can't accidentally give the guest LAN access to your private network by plugging a cable into the wrong port in your closet.

I tought a switch would be handy because I would have all the wall plugs in one location. Also, I would place the router in the middle of my house (first floor) to get full coverage, wich wouldn't be a perfect place to have all the wires come out.

Yeah, central location and a switch to plug in all the cables is good. But if you're not going to do this until you build the new house, don't buy any of it yet. 10 Gbps switches will probably be more commonplace and cheaper by the time you build the new house.

I want to be able to stream HD (or even 4k in the future) video everywhere in my house.

1080p streams are about 5 Mbps. 4k streams are about 20-30 Mbps.

I wanted to setup QoS for my workstation because I want to give it priority above all other devices to access the internet.

Proper QoS actually results in a slight reduction in overall bandwidth. So you're better off trying it without QoS first. And only enabling QoS if you're experiencing problems with the workstation not getting enough bandwidth.

Your main router needs to be the one doing QoS. And if you should decide to enable it, you can assign QoS based on MAC address (unique to each network card) to give your workstation priority.

The Asus XG-U2008 looked like a solid option as a switch, and it has 2 10 Gigabit ports, wich I would connect my nas and workstation to.

I'm wondering now, I'll have 2 WD red drives in my nas, will the 10 Gigabit ports even matter? Or will a Gigabit port be sufficient because HDD's can't write as fast?

Most modern HDDs max out at about 150 MB/s. Newer ones can hit about 200-225 MB/s. GIgabit ethernet maxes out at 125 MB/s. But honestly, unless you're copying large files like movies, you're not going to hit those speeds. Most data you read off the drives will be at about 30-100 MB/s. I'd wait until you build the new house to consider buying a 10 Gbps switch. Gigabit switches used to be $100+ too just 10 years ago.

If I don't need the 10 Gigabit switch, can you recommend a switch with enough ports and that isn't too expensive?

The TrendNet TEG-S80G and TP-Link TL-SG108 are both metal 8-port Gigabit switches which frequently go on sale for $15. I've bought dozens of them installed at lots of customers' offices, and have had virtually no problems with them. The TrendNet has lights on the opposite side of the ethernet plugs. The TP-Link has its lights on the same side as the plugs. So buy based on that or whichever one happens to be on sale.

https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Unmanaged-GREENnet-Switching-TEG-S80G/dp/B001QUA6RA
https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Gigabit-Ethernet-Unmanaged-TL-SG108/dp/B00A121WN6

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Will QoS work in this configuartion? Modem>unmanaged switch>router (with QoS optimized for gaming and workstation)

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