Wired home - Mesh vs. AP?

adambean · Jul 18, 2017

(tl;dr, mesh or traditional in a wire house?)

Hey all,

When I moved into my house, I made sure we ran ethernet to all rooms. It's a 2,400 sq foot home, minus the basement (which is ... 1,200 I believe).

I've had a few different setups through the years between dual routers, router + ap, router + repeater and just a really expensive router. Sadly, to date, I seem to one way or another, have issues.

Currently, I am running an Asus AC5300 and it covers most of the house and parts of the outside relatively well. As of late, I seem to continually have issues adding new devices (4 in the past week), in that they simply won't connect. This issue may unrelated all together, but, I do want/need better WiFi on 1st and 2nd floors. Recently started playing with baby monitors due to newborn, and solid WiFi is a must right now. I have issues getting a solid connection to 5ghz when on 2nd floor and outside. Streaming videos over WiFi is a hit or miss ... sometimes great, other times awful. This is why I largely rely on everything being wired.

Reality is, just ... frustrated with several failed routers through the years. They've all been Asus, perhaps that's my core issue. Or, I'm just stupid and missing something all together.

Anyway, I just started looking into these new mesh networks and they appear to be very appealing on paper. Quite a few competitors and right now appears Orbi is the best option. Yet, being that I do have ethernet run to pretty much every room, is this a dumb investment? Should I be looking at a different option?

I just pulled the trigger on the Netgear RBK50 + RBS50. It won't be here until next week as they're Warehouse Deals, so I have some time to cancel if this isn't the best choice. Being that I have less than 4k square foot, do I really need that third satellite? I figured, better safe than sorry ... or is that just dumb? Will try without the third on setup to determine if needed.

One last note, we are planning to move in a couple years. No idea if it'll be a new home or not and if the later, what options will exist to run lines. Hard to take that into consideration given the unknown, but part of me does say it leans a little towards the Orbi.

Any feedback is most welcome.

Thanks

bill001g · Jul 18, 2017

The mesh stuff is mostly smoke and mirrors. No matter what they say if you repeat signals multiple times each time you take a chance to get interference or corrupt the signal. If this was such good technology enterprise size companies would have it installed years ago. The technology is not new cisco tested it years ago and found it was inferior to a AP type of design. The main time you use it is when you can not get a wired connection to a room and using powerline networks is still a better options than a mesh even in a home network.

For your installation with jacks in every room you would be much better served to use the model used by large corporations. You could use any router as a AP but ubiquiti sell very nice AP that even have a basic central controller feature for very little.

Almost all home user problems with wireless are more too much wireless signals. This is either from neighbors or from your own house. The newest tri-band routers use almost all the bandwidth on a single device so it is impossible to install 2 without some interference. When you look at coverage you are almost always better off sacrificing a little speed so each radio gets its own radio bandwidth......not much you can do if your neighbors try to use it all. Then again if you have wired jacks in every room make a effort to wire as much as possible leaving more bandwidth for devices wired is not a option.

pastit · Jul 18, 2017

Had you thought of powerline? I switched to it when the mice ate my network cables.
If you only want to use it for a couple of years it can be a quite cheap method.
A speed test seems to show mine is just as quick anywhere as straight from the modem.
JB

adambean · Jul 19, 2017

I returned the Orbi for a multitude of reasons and picked up the gen 2 eero. It's very limiting overall, but it does get the job done. Unsure yet If I'll keep. I'm really thinking I should just suck it up and put some Unifi AP's in place. The beauty of the eero is its simplicity, yet I can't help but feel ... well, limited.

If I did go the route of some UniFI AP's (probably just start with one?), what's the best course of action?
- Do I replace the router? I have the Asus AC5300 ... pretty heavy duty consumer router.
- If I don't replace the router, do I disable it's WiFi broadcast? Historically I had issues using dual routers, one as an AP (it was an Asus, so it had a built-in mode of being an AP, didn't have to configure)
- What else do I need for a UniFI solution? There's a gateway, a key, switches, etc. Do I need any of it?
- Which UniFI AP(s) should I use?
- If I go with a PoE AP, does PoE carry over keystones? In that, all my termination is to a central location in my basement. I then run cables throughout the host, hitting wallplates. If at the source in my basement I have a PoE switch, will that carry through or do I need an injector?

Thanks

bill001g · Jul 19, 2017

PoE unfortunately is a abused term by many manufactures. It used to mean 802.3af but now days there are all kinds of proprietary implementations that use different voltages. Anything except the standard require you to use injectors. They also are always on so you run the risk of plugging them into a device that is not designed to take voltages on ethernet pairs.

Even ubiquiti has some models that use proprietary PoE and other that are 802.3af. If you want to use a switch to power them you always need 802.3af compatible devices. All switches that I know of that say PoE are 802.3af. The major advantage is that 802.3af it only provides power to devices that request it.

The ubiquiti AP are the main thing. Their routers are ok but for most uses a consumer router will be fine. If you load asus merlin firmware on your router it will get many more features....I think merlin loads on ac5300.

You can use a mix of router wifi and AP. The only time you would want to turn the wifi off is if you wanted to use the ubiquiti controller software. This is a feature that lets the AP to a point roam and lets you centrally mange them. The controller software is great for something they give away for free, most commercial vendors charge more than the cost of nice car for a server that does similar function.

The key to wireless when you have multiple units is the signal levels. The end devices are really stupid and will not roam between them. Ubiquiti has some ability to try to help this but unless you load a software into end clients so the controller can actually control the client like a cell phone tower none work great.

adambean · Jul 19, 2017

Thanks Bill. So a couple follow ups ...
1) Will PoE transfer through more than one hop? If I get a PoE switch, will that power carry through to my bedroom wall-plates/keystones? I'm not planning on running new lines, nor ceiling mounting these. If I do it, I'll probably just toss one or two behind a dresser or something.

2) So I don't need any of the other UniFi gear, just an AP or two? Don't I need the gateway or key to manage the AP's?

3) So If I leave my router WiFi on, and the AP's are broadcasting ... how to devices know which to connect to? So with what you've stated though about not roaming between, isn't that the core concept of why to do AP's or a Mesh? To travel seamlessly between stronger nodes?

Thanks!

bill001g · Jul 19, 2017

If all you have is some type of physical media it will pass fine. It will not pass though another piece of electronic equipment.

You need nothing special to set the AP up. They have a simple built in web interface or you can load the control software on any pc and use that.

I generally use different SSID so I know where I am connected and can force it. Using the same SSID you can normally force drop it and it will connect to the nearest.

There is no real solution to the roaming. The problem is the client software/hardware. It has no ability to even know there is another signal. To look for other signals it must change the radio mode and scan. It can not actually pass data when it is changing the radio frequencies looking for AP. So end clients are designed to only scan for "better" connection when the one they are using drops. There are proprietary clients from big companies like cisco that load a special driver so the controller can send a message to the pc telling it to switch when the controller knows there is a better connection. This also solves the encryption key issue so that the connections can reestablish more quickly by reducing the steps in the key negotiation.

Pretty much the only need I have seen for actual seamless roaming is when we use VoIP phones. Something like a laptop a glitch while you force it to change it pretty minor thing unless you constantly walk around you house while using your PC.

adambean · Jul 19, 2017

OK cool, so it should pass through, great!

See, I didn't want to setup different SSID's. This was an appealing factor of the mesh. It's all the same SSID for both 2.4 and 5. My AC5300 can do this too (automatically sent to 2.4 or one of two 5ghz channels), but I seemed to have issues with it. Still, in this scenario, seems like using the same name SSID shouldn't be an issue.

Good to know about the roaming. I'm seeing this now on the eero in that my phone is not smart enough to jump to a new node with a strong signal. I was on the 2nd floor just now, still connected to the basement. I then walked around using a WiFi signal test and noticed my old router is damn near on par with eero in most rooms. Obviously when I'm right near one of the eero nodes, it's insanely better ... but generally speaking, I'm within 5-10 dBm.

The more I play with eero and Orbi, I'm starting to realize that I don't think they're for me.

Crazy enough, I completely forgot. My first floor office has dual ethernet runs. Meaning, I could move the router there and still keep my central termination (12 port switch + WAN) in the basement. Problem is, the second line is not responding. I tried to recut the end, still nothing. Any suggestions to validate if the line is viable? This might be my end all easiest fix.

bill001g · Jul 19, 2017

You can buy one of the cheap testers that check the wires are good and in the proper order. Pretty much all you can do is cut off the ends and reterminate until you get lucky. I would use keystones rather than rj45 they are much easier to get right and you can pull single wires out and re punch them without taking the chance to mess a different wire up.

Now if you REALLY want to get ambitious you can use a switch that has vlan support (many poe switches do) and use merlin firmware on your router so it too supports vlans. You can then use a single cable to run 2 vlans 1 for WAN and a second for LAN. It looks really strange to have your modem plugged into the main switch but it virtually is 2 different switches.

adambean · Jul 19, 2017

Yeah they're on keystones. On the office end, I recut it several times to no avail and I'm quickly running out of extra line ... Need to try on the basement end.

Regardless, I'm going to pack up the eero and return today. In parallel, I kind of do want to try just putting an UniFi AP in the office and see what happens. I'm looking at the options and kinda confused:

https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-UAP-AC-M-PRO-US-Unifi-Access-Point/dp/B015PRO512/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500478727&sr=8-1&keywords=Ubiquiti%2BUAP-AC-M-PRO-US&th=1

What are these newer Mesh ones all about? Do they work just like the traditional AP's or something special needed to use? I'd assume I'd be more than fine with the AC Lite or Pro? But either of those two mesh options would be a better fit to just sit on a shelf as I won't be mounting. Advice?

Thanks!

bill001g · Jul 19, 2017

I know little about the mesh ones. Pretty much since it is not used in commercial installs I have not spent a lot of time. Everything I look at it I can't see why running a bunch of repeater hops is a good idea. It can't solve the fundamental problem of the client software roaming and how the radio chips work. I still strongly suspect it is mostly marketing hype, if it actually was some magic solution you would think cisco,HP etc would be pushing it hard as a way to sell more equipment to large enterprise customers who buy many thousands of ap to put in their buildings.

adambean · Jul 19, 2017

Well, I went ahead and ordered the AP-AC-LR.

You're pretty sure I shouldn't disable the existing router's WiFi?

adambean · Jul 19, 2017

One more question on the matter. I just spent the time and identified every ethernet rub and finally labeled. That extra line I spoke of earlier ... no dice. It was a stupid idea I had 8 years ago.

So, being that my switch + modem is in the basement and ideally I'd like to put my router in my 1st floor office ... There's no way to do this yeah? I would need a connection between the modem and the router + another connection between the switch and the router. Any creative ideas on how to do this outside of snaking + destroying drywall?

Keeping the AP order, it'll be here Friday. Just would prefer to not bother if possible. Moving that router, in theory, may resolve all of my issues.

Thanks

bill001g · Jul 19, 2017

Well go back to my previous post.

You can use vlans if your switch and your router support it. You could I suppose use a inexpensive managed switch in front of your router if you do not want to mess with firmware and plug the WAN and LAN port into that switch but on different vlans. You would define a tagged port between the 2 devices. The tags make the cable act as multiple cables

adambean · Jul 20, 2017

If I'm going to have a UAP-AC-LR in the middle of the house, on the 2nd floor, do you think there's value in putting the In-Wall (http://amzn.com/B06XZLP8Q6) on the first floor? I have to hope/assume, the LR will more than suffice? 3 floor house, ~3,600-3,800 sq ft (I forget).

adambean · Jul 20, 2017

One more question for now, is there much value in ditching my AC5300 in favor of the UniFi SG + Switch? Just debating If I should go all in at this point ...

bill001g · Jul 20, 2017

I would use your router and see if it works ok you can always swap it out later if you have issues. Do not read a lot into the so called controller software it is just a program you can run on any machine you already have. It is mostly a central configuration and monitoring thing it does not actually control the end stations.

adambean · Jul 20, 2017

Thanks for all the help!

With these APs, should I broadcast 2.4 and 5ghz on the same SSID or separate?

Thanks

bill001g · Jul 21, 2017

This is mostly personal preference. I tend to like to be in control so I set them different so I know exactly what I am connecting to. The automated stuff does not always pick the best. In general the 2.4g signal will be stronger that 5g and that is all the automated stuff cares about. 2.4g has much more interference from neighbors and it can not run 802.11ac which can cut the throughput speed. When you have 2 5g radios in the same router I do not know if it will let you set them to the same SSID.

Then again if you are running lots of AP in your house you will have to reduce the channel width to avoid interference anyway. Your current router is a pig. It will attempt to use 8/9 of the bandwidth on 5g and 2/3 of the bandwidth on 2.4g. There is no way to run another device without guaranteed interference....even from your neighbors.

gregjar · Jul 21, 2017

As others have mentioned, meshed range extenders are inefficient, since a star or hub-and-spoke topology of a central router to multiple wired APs minimizes extra network hops and latency. Any extender mesh will create at least a few areas with hidden node interference. The cheaper ones cut throughput by at least half as they reuse the same channel for backhaul, while the more expensive ones make you chose between Fast Roaming 802.11k/r/v or higher backhaul throughput. Even with wired UniFi APs, you're adding some delay due to media conversion between Ethernet frames and Wi-Fi.

The RT-AC5300 appears to have 4 4x4 MIMO antennas for 802.11ac, and 4 4x4 MIMO antennas for 802.11b/g/n. The absolute cheapest and simplest way to extend your range would be to use the $9.99 StraightShot kit from coaxifi.com to send 5.8 GHz Wi-Fi natively from your router to the remote room over your coaxial cables, or you could opt for one of their splitter kits to reach more rooms. If you were rewiring your house at some point for Wi-Fi or Cel-Fi, you might consider running LMR-600 cable to SMA wall plates instead, as that apparently can support 2.4 GHz signals as far as 760 feet. But RG-6 coax should be more than adequate to kill off dead zones in your 2,400+1,200 sq. ft. home with the impedance converters included. It's definitely worth trying before spending 40 times more money on a dodgy mesh "solution."

adambean · Jul 21, 2017

Thanks for all the help gents. Unsure If I should go to the Unifi forums or not; however, the LR AP just showed up and I'm up and running on it. To say the least, I'm underwhelmed.

My AC5300 in the basement is putting off a strong signal than the AP while on the first floor. Which is crazy when I have line of sight and/or closer in proximity to the AP than my basement router. Like right now, I'm in my office, which is on the far left side of my house. The AP is dead middle of the house (2nd floor) and the router is far right (basement). They are within 5dBm of each other.

For the second floor, the AP wins, buy maybe by ~10dBm in most spots. My 2nd floor is relatively open too, not a full floor in comparison to most as the walkway up + the great room (where a 4th room normally is) is all wide open.

That and even when on the 2nd floor, walk over ~10 feet, and the neighbors are putting off a stronger signal. The AP is running on channels 9-11 which has almost no interference from neighbors. My router is on 5-7 which is competing with quite a few.

I'm ... let down. I upgraded the firmware and haven't messed with anything else yet. I'm hopeful this is merely a configuration issue? Just having a hard time saying this was a great investment. Perhaps this range would be expected for the standard, but shouldn't the long range be kicking my routers butt?

Were my expectations too high or am I missing something here?

Thanks

gregjar · Jul 21, 2017

adambean :

Try the $9.99 StraightShot kit from coaxifi.com. Your AC5300 is already in the basement where I imagine your cable runs are, so you're in the perfect spot for Wi-Fi over coax. Over 50 feet of RG-6 cable or less, you'd probably see RSSIs of -30 dBm or stronger on 5 GHz at the cable outlet of any room in the house.

https://fccid.io/MSQ-RTGZ00 shows the RT-AC5300 as outputting up to 995 mW on 2.4 GHz and 977 mW on the higher 5 GHz channels. With the 3.5dBi antennas, you're pretty close to the EIRP limit. You might try harnessing all that power over coax instead of buying APs that aren't as powerful.

bill001g · Jul 21, 2017

Range and coverage is almost purely a function of radio transmit power. The amount of power has been regulated at the same levels since WiFi began. Almost all device transmit very close to the legal maximum. High end AP you can reduce the power but never go above the legal maximum.

Pretty much this means all devices more or less get the same coverage. What confuses things are they way end device show power levels...some like apple show more bars to pretend their device receive signal better.

The only definitive source is the FCC database. If you take the FCC id you can get all the power output reports they must legally file to be allowed to sell the device in the USA or the EU. They are very confusing since many things influence the power including things like the encoding..802.11b for example tends to be able to put out slightly more power than 802.11n.

What I have seen is almost all the main manufacture are pretty close to the same. Maybe you see 3-4db difference which in real world make no difference.

All the so called HIGH POWER or LONG RANGE etc etc are marketing. Now type of antenna does make a difference a direction antenna compared to omni since the power all goes in 1 directions....and the rules for power level on directional are different than omni.

In general quality equipment from any manufacture will get more or less the same coverage.

Be very careful when you look at channels. 802.11n by default now uses 40mhz of bandwidth. The channels you see in a router a 5mhz wide. Pretty much all routers use channel 1-8 or they use 5-11. This means it is impossible to not overlap another device. The channels 1,6,11 was based on 20mhz channels. The 802.11ac has the same issue it uses 80mhz but the channels on 5g are 20mhz rather than 5 so it uses 4 contiguous ones.

There really is no magic solution to wireless. This is why there are people who make their living installing WiFi in businesses. It take lots of planning and research to get this correct.

adambean · Jul 21, 2017

@gregjar - seems interesting. I ran dual coax lines to every single room in the house to support DirecTV back in 2009 ... now a days, only a single line is in use due to how they changed their hardware. So I actually have a free coax run to all the major areas in the house (including all bedrooms on the 2nd floor). I'm confused though, looks like they're extenders? Won't they simply repeat the existing signal? That site is just an eBay shop though, need more info on how this works and what all is involved. Seems like a potential good idea though?

@bill001g - If I do stick with a UniFi AP, was the LR the wrong choice? Should I go with one of the others? Also, by default the UniFi is broadcasting the same SSID 3x: 1 for n/b/g, 1 for ac, 1 for 5ghz. Is this the best way to do this?

I've never seen 2.4 broadcasted separately like that. I'm showing 44% utilization "high, likely a problem" on n/b/g and 1% utilized on ac. We have multiple devices that support ac, kinda surprised by this. For example, both my phone and my wife's supports ac, but yet they're sitting on 11ng 2.4ghz. Seems odd.

gregjar · Jul 21, 2017

adambean :

@gregjar - seems interesting. I ran dual coax lines to every single room in the house to support DirecTV back in 2009 ... now a days, only a single line is in use due to how they changed their hardware. So I actually have a free coax run to all the major areas in the house (including all bedrooms on the 2nd floor). I'm confused though, looks like they're extenders? Won't they simply repeat the existing signal? That site is just an eBay shop though, need more info on how this works and what all is involved. Seems like a potential good idea though?

The Coaxifi kits essentially lengthen your antenna, rather than repeating a diminished signal like range extenders do. DXers (ham radio enthusiasts) work with this type of setup all the time. So for example, I have an Alfa Wi-Fi adapter in my basement, and want to use an RG-6 or RG-11 drop cable that's out in my yard to connect to a Yagi antenna out there. I use an RPSMA to F adapter to convert the impedance from 50 to 75 Ohms between my router and the coax cable, then convert back from 75 to 50 Ohms at the antenna with an F to SMA or F to N adapter. Coaxifi has the same idea. You'd unplug a stock antenna from the AC5300, plug in their RSPMA to F adapter, connect that to the cable run going to a 2nd floor bedroom (for instance), and twist their antenna right on the cable outlet. So it's like bringing your router upstairs. You'd lose only 4.8 dB or less over 30 feet of coax at 2.4 GHz, versus the 59 dB from free space path loss you currently lose over wireless.

Wired home - Mesh vs. AP?

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