Wired home network setup

Adrian M · Aug 1, 2017

Hello all,

I'm renovating my apartment and I'm planning to equip each room with wired Internet and coaxial TV cables. The aim is to have all cables invisible, running inside tubes buried in brick walls, with Internet and TV Cable wall sockets in each room.

I have created a Visio diagram, hopefully it's easy to understand it:
https://www.docdroid.net/2BEYChi/plan.pdf

Basically, it will take 5 connected cables from the front door to each computer:
Cable comes in the house -> Wall Socket -> Cable running through brick wall -> Wall Socket -> Cable -> Router/Splitter -> Cable -> Wall Socket -> Cable running through brick wall -> Wall Socket -> Cable -> Computer/TV

Will this work? Do so many connected cables affect the signal?

Another questions, here is the 4-Way Wall Socket I'm planning to use:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Wall-Socket-Plate-Four-Ports-Gigabit-Network-CAT6-LAN-Socket-86-86mm-Faceplate-Outlet-Adapter/32817033323.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.sG33wS

Does it matter if the wall socket is shielded or not?

Thank you!

captaincharisma · Aug 1, 2017

everything should be shielded to prevent any interference. just like if you are putting this behind a wall do not run any cable close to power lines or light outlets. how many connection depends on how much bandwidth you will be getting from whichever telco/cable company you plan to go with as well as what kind of modem and router you are going to be using

boosted1g · Aug 1, 2017

Your plan is completely fine and is bassically how it is typically done.
As long as you are not buying the cheapest copper clad aluminum ethernet cable you can find on ebay then there should be no worry about crosstalk to the other cables to effect signal.
Make sure you are using quad shield RG6 for the coax cable and use compression connectors, not crimp or even worse twist on.

Since you are dong the renovation with walls gutted anyways you should "do it right the first time"
It is tremendously more versatile if you you run both the coax and the ethernet to a structured media box or wall mounted network rack. Have the run going to a patch panel, then to a switch, and then to your rooms/router.
Here is a couple pictures of my setup I installed in my home:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9z3GxauYyhrTXEtbXJLUUtIUjQ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9z3GxauYyhreVpieDNYNERFck0

boosted1g · Aug 1, 2017

To add about interference.

captiancharisma is right in that if you are running the ethernet right alongside power wire than you should be getting shielded wire and jacks.
You want a minimum of 1ft separation between power and low-voltage wires. It is ok for them to perpendicular cross once or twice if you have to over longer runs, just avoid it as much as possible.
If you can keep the ethernet away from power lines then you really don't need shielded, it is a nice to have but (the vast majority of the time) it will run just fine with full throughput using unshielded.

newbcakes · Aug 1, 2017

Unfortunately I'm unable to get to your pdf network diagram... so I'll just share my setup:

Service provider to house (fiber to their converter box) -> RG6 -> their modem/WAP -> Cat 5e -> Cisco SG300-20 -> numerous wall ports.

also (starting at their modem): -> Cat 5e -> Another AP to extend wireless network

So I feed a switch for physical distribution, and feed another AP for wireless network extension/coverage.

That switch is a layer 3 switch... and for all my good intentions, I haven't found the need to carve up the network. I see no issues, even with kids & family abusing every streaming media service known to man.

captaincharisma · Aug 1, 2017

also to add for a major wiring project like this i would use CAT 6 Ethernet cable. it may not have an advantage when it comes to internet but if you are looking to setup a media server to share all over the house it will be able to take advantage of gigabit speeds

bill001g · Aug 1, 2017

captaincharisma :

Cat6 has no advantage at all over cat5e both can run at 1gbit at 100meters. You might consider cat6a to put in the wall but it is only needed to run 10g which there is currently not much use for in a home installation.

newbcakes · Aug 1, 2017

captaincharisma :

I'm not interested in starting a flame war on cat 6 cabling... However I will point this out and add my own experience: http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1803263/advantages-cat6-cat5e-plenum-cables.html

Perhaps if you're trying to future-proof your home, go with the cat 6. The lowest common denominator will be the NIC's on any home system you're standing up, unless you spend a lot of dough on higher end network cards.

Now... if we dig a little deeper and see that 4k video with current compression efficiencies streams at about 15-20Mbps, you can have a few 4k streams with standard NICs pumping data simultaneously. Even then, you're talking about distribution, which dives into a deeper conversation. I'd say there's a good chance I'll be dead before the bandwidth provided by Cat5e is used up.

I'm saying all this because I have a friend who just built a house and wired everything in cat6 and said he wouldn't bother doing it again... The equipment to take advantage of cat6 is very high dollar... but that doesn't mean in 5 years it won't be mainstream.

captaincharisma · Aug 1, 2017

bill001g :

it has no advantage now but it will in the foreseeable future. we are not talking about some electronic device that will last you or you will replace in the next 5-10 years we are talking about a house that will last at minimum 50 years

bill001g · Aug 1, 2017

captaincharisma :

bill001g :

it has no advantage now but it will in the foreseeable future. we are not talking about some electronic device that will last you or you will replace in the next 5-10 years we are talking about a house that will last at minimum 50 years

You recommended cat6 not cat6a or cat7,. Cat6 cable is a dead cable and has no purpose.

captaincharisma · Aug 1, 2017

bill001g :

captaincharisma :

You recommended cat6 not cat6a or cat7,. Cat6 cable is a dead cable and has no purpose.

so what? all i was trying to get across is using the latest technology out there. heck, if there are cat 7, 8,9, 10 out right now i would use those types of cables

Solandri · Aug 1, 2017

Shielding is generally not needed for twisted pair. The pairs themselves reject noise. (A signal is split into two, and one is inverted, The signal is run on one of the pair, the inverse on the other. RF noise contaminates both signals. At the receiving end the inverted signal is inverted again, thus regenerating the original signal but inverting the noise. When you add the two - signal and double-inverted signal, the noise subtracts out leaving only signal.)

Shielding the RJ45 keystones can't hurt, but it's generally not needed. The exception is if you've got power wires running next to the ethernet cable. The proximity means there can be a large noise difference from one of the twisted pair wires to the other, causing the invert-and-add trick to fail. Power wires, not conduit. Any power conduit in the developed world will be metal, and act as a faraday cage shielding anything outside from RF interference from the power cables inside. It's only the power wires outside the conduit going to wall outlets and light fixtures that you have to be wary of. Edit: The cable TV cable *might* generate interference on the RJ45 if you're using wall plates which combine both into a single wall plate. Coax cable is also shielded so there shouldn't be noise. But it's a woven metal shielding so some noise can leak through.

Adrian M · Aug 1, 2017

Solandri :

Shielding is generally not needed for twisted pair. The pairs themselves reject noise. (A signal is split into two, and one is inverted, The signal is run on one of the pair, the inverse on the other. RF noise contaminates both signals. At the receiving end the inverted signal is inverted again, thus regenerating the original signal but inverting the noise. When you add the two - signal and double-inverted signal, the noise subtracts out leaving only signal.)

Shielding the RJ45 keystones can't hurt, but it's generally not needed. The exception is if you've got power wires running next to the ethernet cable. The proximity means there can be a large noise difference from one of the twisted pair wires to the other, causing the invert-and-add trick to fail. Power wires, not conduit. Any power conduit in the developed world will be metal, and act as a faraday cage shielding anything outside from RF interference from the power cables inside. It's only the power wires outside the conduit going to wall outlets and light fixtures that you have to be wary of. Edit: The cable TV cable *might* generate interference on the RJ45 if you're using wall plates which combine both into a single wall plate. Coax cable is also shielded so there shouldn't be noise. But it's a woven metal shielding so some noise can leak through.

Just to make sure I understand, when you say power wires, you refer to all the wires that connect the wall outlets, and when you are saying conduit you are refering a device's cable that you plug into a wall outlet?

Solandri · Aug 1, 2017

Adrian M :

Everything I'm talking about is inside the walls. "Power wires" are your house's 110V (or 220V) AC wiring.

Conduit is piping that the wires go inside when you run them around in the walls of your house. For power wires in the developed world, regulations require its conduit to be metal. That way if the wires inside should short and catch fire, the adjacent structure (usually wood beams) are protected from direct contact with the flame. The metal conduit will slowly heat up over time, but hopefully you'll notice smoke or that power to an outlet isn't working before then. The metal conduit also happens to block RF emanating from the wires (without the conduit, the wires are basically big antennas).

Conduit for cable, network and phone cables isn't always used. But when it is, it's usually plastic or PVC since there's no (or very little) fire risk, it's cheaper, and easier to work with. It's recommended because it makes replacing the cable easier (just tie the new cable to the old and pull it through). But a lot of times people don't want to pay extra for conduit when the TV, network, or phone cables work just fine without it.

The last foot or so of wiring (power or network or otherwise) needs to be outside the conduit so it can be connected to a wall plate. Twisted pair is usually pretty robust against RF noise since both wires in the pair see almost the same noise. But if the noise source is very close to the twisted pair, because the noise level drops off with the square of distance, the closer wire in the pair sees a stronger noise signal than the further wire, and the noise doesn't cancel out when you invert and add the signals in the pair. (The twisting helps mitigate this if the noise is coming from a length of wire - this is flat ethernet cable is more susceptible to noise since its pairs aren't twisted. But it's less effective when the noise is coming from a point source or a small segment of wire.)

mjslakeridge · Aug 1, 2017

No conduit required inside the walls here in Houston (at least for residential). The conductors are stapled to the studs with an insulated staple.

Adrian M · Aug 1, 2017

Solandri :

Adrian M :

Everything I'm talking about is inside the walls. "Power wires" are your house's 110V (or 220V) AC wiring.

Conduit is piping that the wires go inside when you run them around in the walls of your house. For power wires in the developed world, regulations require its conduit to be metal. That way if the wires inside should short and catch fire, the adjacent structure (usually wood beams) are protected from direct contact with the flame. The metal conduit will slowly heat up over time, but hopefully you'll notice smoke or that power to an outlet isn't working before then. The metal conduit also happens to block RF emanating from the wires (without the conduit, the wires are basically big antennas).

Conduit for cable, network and phone cables isn't always used. But when it is, it's usually plastic or PVC since there's no (or very little) fire risk, it's cheaper, and easier to work with. It's recommended because it makes replacing the cable easier (just tie the new cable to the old and pull it through). But a lot of times people don't want to pay extra for conduit when the TV, network, or phone cables work just fine without it.

The last foot or so of wiring (power or network or otherwise) needs to be outside the conduit so it can be connected to a wall plate. Twisted pair is usually pretty robust against RF noise since both wires in the pair see almost the same noise. But if the noise source is very close to the twisted pair, because the noise level drops off with the square of distance, the closer wire in the pair sees a stronger noise signal than the further wire, and the noise doesn't cancel out when you invert and add the signals in the pair. (The twisting helps mitigate this if the noise is coming from a length of wire - this is flat ethernet cable is more susceptible to noise since its pairs aren't twisted. But it's less effective when the noise is coming from a point source or a small segment of wire.)

That's a very good explanation, thanks for clarifying that.

Does that mean the following wall socket is not such a good idea, since the ethernet port is so close to a power socket?
https://case-smart.ro/produs/priza-cvadrupla-priza-tv-internet-livolo-cu-rama-din-sticla/culoare-gri/

bill001g · Aug 1, 2017

I would not worry about the spacing too much. Generally the problem occur if you were to run the ethernet along the power cables. Even a couple inches apart you get nothing...well at least for power that you find in a house. Pretty much you only see issues if you would do something stupid like wrap the ethernet around the power cables which is a safety issue also.

If you have ever seen a server rack in a data center where they pack 20-30 1u high servers into a single rack all with dual ethernet and dual power you would see power and ethernet cables crammed into every available space. There tends to be no issues at all doing this.

I have worked networking getting close to 20yrs now and in all that time I have only see interference 1 time and that was when a cable installer ran the ethernet though a florescent ceiling fixture directly on top of the ballast. Interference is extremely rare and if you were to use the expensive testing meters you can actually measure this and you will not see much of anything.

Adrian M · Aug 2, 2017

Thank you everyone for your pieces of advice. I will probably use a media box for the point where the cables meet the router. To summarise:

- My plan is achievable.
- Coax cable should use compression connector and should be quad shield RG6.
- Everything should be shielded, but not necessary if the internet and coaxial cables are at least 1ft/30cm apart from the power lines or if they only cross each other perpendicularly.
- It is best to use the latest cable technology for future proof i.e. Cat 6a.

Additional questions:
1. I decided to not complicate things with shielding and grounding, since the twisted pair should offer enough protection. Are all Cat 6a shielded by default? If yes, should I just go with unshielded Cat 6 then?
2. Are UTP cables the only option if I don't want shielding and grounding? Or can an FTP or S/FTP work the same even if I don't ground them? Can a shielded cable which is not grounded actually decrease performance vs. unshielded cable?
3. Is it ok to run internet cables and coaxial cables together through the same conduit?

bill001g · Aug 2, 2017

You can get cat6a that is not shielded. Shielded cable is a pain to work with because it is so stiff. There are no issues running coax and ethernet in the same conduit. The key to cat6a cable is mostly the frequencies it will run at you need 500mhz or faster.

If you do not ground shield cable it can act like a antenna and actually increase the interference...this is very rare though. Shielded cable is almost impossible to correctly install in anything other than a data center. Both ends must be connected to a ground and according to most codes it can not be the ground from the power. You must run a separate ground to each location independent of the power ground. This is mostly a safety code issue but in theory at least you could get interference from the ground. Powerline adapters actually transmit signal over the ground so that could interfere I suppose.

In a house where your runs are under 50 meters you can actually use normal cat6 cable not even cat6a. It will have no issues running at 10g speeds. This is one of those grey areas where there is what actually works and what is in the certification documents. The 50 meter exception was never added to the eia/tia standards. I think it was added to one of the other standards though. This is like cat7 cable that is only certified by 2 or the 3 standards organizations and now they are working on a new standard to run 100g which mean cat7 will likely never be fully certified.

If this was my house I would run cat5e since you are running conduit. It is easy to pull the cable out and replace. When you actually have equipment that has 10g ports you can replace those runs. switch/routers and even the wall jacks that can run 10g are expensive yet.

boosted1g · Aug 2, 2017

Bill summed up your questions pretty nicely.

In general you want to separate "low voltage" DC lines from high voltage AC lines.
So for home installations this basically means that your wall outlet power needs to be separate from everything else. You can have coax, cat_, phone, hdmi, and speaker wire all in the same conduit and have no interference.

The 1ft separation I said is really farther then necessary, its just more of an extra precaution. Three inches is more then suitable but at 3 inches if things get shifted and that ethernet cable is running right on the romex (power wire) for a good foot or two then you can start seeing signal loss. By making sure you have a 1ft gap between the two is just piece of mind that 5-10 years latter you would still not have an issue.
Now if you are using pvc or metal conduit (on either the low voltage or the power wires) then there is nothing to worry about anyways.

I am looking at doing a new home in 5 years and plan to install Cat6a for future-proofing thinking 15-20 years out.
Bill is right though that there is a difference between certification and real world. I have a client in an office building that is able to get just under 1gbps on Cat5 (not 5e) cable, its spec is for only 100mbps.
In my opinion if this place will be your home for decades then do Cat6a wire, jacks/patch panels are easy to change out latter. If you are fairly positive you wont be there in 10 years then no reason to spend money on anything more than cat5e.
FYI most of my small business jobs installations still use cat5e for new drops; i pretty much only do 6 and 6a if requested.

Adrian M · Aug 2, 2017

boosted1g :

Thanks for the additional info. Does that mean that low voltage cables can run alongside power wires if one if them is going through pvc or metal conduit?

boosted1g · Aug 2, 2017

Adrian M :

That is correct.
If one group (high or low voltage) is inside PVC or metal conduit you could literally tie the other type of cable to the conduit and not worry about interference. I wouldn't do that for both fire-safety reasons and so as not to make any future changes more difficult, but just saying on interference standpoint there is nothing to worry over.

(Cant help but remember the guy that fished his ethernet inside conduit of a bundle of power lines and wondered why the connection would not work)

Adrian M · Aug 2, 2017

boosted1g :

Woah, I must have been reading everything wrong then, what you just said makes my life a lot easier. Just to confirm, have a look at the following picture:
http://imgur.com/AP2pXnE

The power wires are running through the black conduit in the middle of the room and the white conduit along the walls. If I would run the internet cable (red line) along the wall, right next to the white conduit that contains power wires, would there be no interference at all?

boosted1g · Aug 2, 2017

Its a little hard to tell from the picture.

The black conduit most definitely.
The white conduit I cant tell the material or thickness to give you a straight yes or no. If it is PVC then yes.

Now you need separate boxes or at least ones designed for high and low voltage at the wall outlet. http://forums.mikeholt.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13780&stc=1&d=1447298412 (not endorsing this vendor, just first hit of good image for it)

Adrian M · Aug 3, 2017

I had a meeting today with the electrician who will replace all the electrical wires (the apartment is 50 years old). He will also assist with drilling the walls for my network. He told me to forget about being able to replace the network cables at a later time, as there will be too many turns and corners to let you pull the wire out of the conduit. Is this true or is there actually a way to do this? Each cable will make around 4-5 90 degrees turns and will be around 10m/30ft long.

Wired home network setup

Distinguished

Glorious

Titan

Titan

Honorable

Glorious

Titan

Honorable

Glorious

Titan

Glorious

Illustrious

Distinguished

Illustrious

Splendid

Distinguished

Titan

Distinguished

Titan

Titan

Distinguished

Titan

Distinguished

Titan

Distinguished

Share this page