how to effectively use switches, router/APs

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

I have home and several finished garages sprawling across my property. Most of the bldgs have metal siding. The house is lath/plaster.

The existing network inside the ISP modem/router is wired switches to connect (by wire) the multiple router/APs. All the switches are gigabit rated. After the modem/router (NetGear N450-100NAS, I have a mix of Cisco E2500 & TPLINK TL-WR1043ND. The TPLINKs are spec'd faster, so I have them in the zones with the most large graphic/video use.

My problem is that half my network is showing (speedtest.net) substantially lower speeds than the other. I do have a TPLINK in each "half".

I wish I knew how to upload a diagram, that would make it more clear.

I'm thinking I need to understand how the components work so I can effectively modify the configuration or relocate devices or upgrade components or ??

typical usage is 1-4 wifi devices per AP, though seldom more than 10 at any given time

nigelivey · Nov 21, 2017

Are the APs all wired?

The Paladin · Nov 21, 2017

you can upload your graphics to imgur.com and give the link here.

now it looks like you have a cable [modem/router]---[switch]------[routers set in AP mode]

now I noticed that one model was N600 and the other is N450, the later will be less efficient at speeds.
Are those Ap/TL-WR1043ND the ones located on the areas you noticed "lower than expected speeds?
The routers wifi speeds (in this example youre N450/Mimo Model

11n: Up to 450Mbps(dynamic)
11g: Up to 54Mbps(dynamic)
11b: Up to 11Mbps(dynamic)

As you see depending on th protocol they are connecting to will set speed they get to use.(you need to check which each device use)
often you can check for firmware upgrade to your router that could improve speeds.

I know this is a netgear page but the information applies I believe to your situation.
https://kb.netgear.com/30962/How-does-lowering-wireless-mode-affect-internet-speed-and-how-are-they-related

the solution?
1. make sure you have optimized your wifi speed channels.
2. a newer router, like replacing the N450 with N600 or upgrading all to N900 for example.

kanewolf · Nov 21, 2017

Was there any significance to the garage statement? It didn't seem related to the rest of your post?

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

nigelivey :

yes all switches are wired to the LAN ports of the cable modem/router. all other router/APs have their WAN ports wired to the switches and are set to fixed IP serving DHCP to devices.

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

kanewolf :

the physical layout ... finished spaces in metal buildings separated by distance (hence all the switches and wires) ... no way any single AP could cover the range ... also no need for setting the SSID of the different router/APs to be the same as devices will lose signal between likely anyway, and different projects are worked on (no advantage to "seamless"). I do find that the lath/plaster in the house means within-house wifi is troublesome.

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

The Paladin :

(1) no one of the /TL-WR1043ND is in the fast zone, the other in the slow zone. One is measuring about 100 Mbps downlink, 12 Mbps uplink, the other about 11 Mbps downlink, 9 Mbps uplink. On the fast zone, E2500 measures downlink 35 Mbps, uplink 12 Mbps, in the slow zone the E2500 measures downlink 10 Mbps, downlink 8 Mbps.

I'm thinking to understand what is causing this so I can upgrade effectively and position correctly.

(2) I better go read that article - trying to get easy answers up & post that network diagram first. Will it explain the N450 N600 N900 to me?

(3) I am peripherially aware that 802.11b is slower/older than 11g than 11n ... no idea what devices use what or how to tell?

(4) I don't think I can do the firmware updates? I don't have a computer with an RJ45 jack any longer.

(5) I could use some guidance as to how to figure out the channel thing. I've no idea how to check, measure or adjust channel occupancy.

(6) after I understand better what I have, I can make a smart decision about what hardware to upgrade in what time frame

(7) off to try this imgur thing

The Paladin · Nov 21, 2017

1. not surprising since they are your slowest device on the network
2. the article will answer question 3 regarding what devices are connecting to what 802.11 protocol
3. you can do firmware to routers over the lan since they are all connected wired, if you can access the web interface of each router you can upgrade the firmware
5. I use my phone app to be honest it permits to see the router I am scrutinizing while exploring what other interference (other routers on the same base channel) I use a Samsung phone but the app exists for the IPhone as well, it is called WIFI Analyzer author is Kevin Yuan it shows you the router you are connected in 2.4 or 5 ghz and what other routers in the area could be cause (running on the channel) interference, the solution if that is the case is connect to router web interface under advanced/wireless/Wi-Fi setting and change the channel to one you see isn't being used on your phone.
6. basically upgrading a N300 (max 300Mbs to a dual channel like a N900 permits to have more devices connecting to it, and can control better the strength of the signal from that router) another popular change is to get DDRT Firmware (it replaced the one shipped with your router) and get to control it better and more securely, this requires a lot of reading and configurations. but it does permit "upgrading an old firmware that is made for masses to something far better software wise. again this done wrong can make your router a brick and unusable)

regarding point 5. this is what I am talking about as you see my network and lazer printer are on channel 10 where most of the local channels are on the other channels many superposing themselves making my network free of other router signal interferences.

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

Alright -- here's a network diagram

https://imgur.com/a/ScISb

imgur didn't like my PDF file - had to convert it to JPG.

SO the history ... I used to have a 25 Mbps service, and was having image upload/download problems, plus timeouts and drop outs. I recently upgraded my service to 200 Mbps, and immediately the modem/first router became the bottleneck.

btw as you look at this - the single-line boxes represent buildings. the blue ones do NOT transmit wifi, the purple ones are marginal.

double lines represent internet cabling ... RG8 from the street to the exterior wall, RG 6 to the modem, most of the rest is CAT6 underground in sealed conduit with exception of the red double line is CAT5e & some local patch cords are also.

My fast zone is the orange, blue, purple APs ... note one each E2500 TL-WR1043ND ... the slow zone is the two greens and the magenta (also both E2500 & TL-1043ND present) ... priority for large graphics file transfer are the purple and magenta zones, hence the TL-1043ND are placed there.

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

I go read, run errands, & poke at my APs with my phone....

The Paladin · Nov 21, 2017

I am wondering if you have done some ping testing of your network to make sure it wasn't a switch or what not causing your speed test on your wired side., (excluding limitation of Wi-Fi here)

from main router you could ping each device and see what response you get , now that said most routers have that option off by default so you would have to set it on to get a result. or have a wired device on that router *(a computer for example) you could ping it instead of the router attached to it.

so from a device connected to your x.x.1.100/149 range ping the switches and devices attached to each router, it is possible a router is having a issue, not so likely but something easy to investigate. and perhaps find your bottleneck

I would use ping trace as an app to perform this, it will show the ping from point to point. from start to end. if you see a device running in 100ms then some thing could be up with that device. internally they should run very quickly I would expect no more than 25ms to be honest from first to farthest point on your network.

kanewolf · Nov 21, 2017

First thing I see from your diagram is that you aren't using the routers as APs if you have a WAN IP address. If those were setup as APs you would have all your IPs in the 192.168.0.x subnet. I would recommend that you flatten your network to a single subnet and configure the routers as access points.

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

The Paladin :

alright, so sitting in the Slow Zone ... I don't have full time on devices on any of the routers - nearly all devices are phones, pads, tablets, laptops (and one stray Roku) ... I log this laptop into HOME-1084 ... ping 192.168.4.1 (2ms) ... ping 192.168.1.1(2ms) ... so i'm thinking channel problem ... figuring out that wifi analyzer looks like next up. But continuing, so long as I'm here ... logging this laptop into HOME-1044 ... ping 192.168.2.1 ... 7 ping tests average 13.71ms stdev 1.5 ms... ping 192.168.1.1 ... 7 tests average6.14 ms stdev 1.77 ms ... for Grins & Giggles, I logged this laptop into the Extender ... ping 192.168.4.1 (the router which is extended) ... 7 ping tests average 1.29 ms stdev 0.76 ms ... ping 192.168.1.1 ... 7 tests average 2.29 ms stdev 2.21 ms

I *had* done this before, but not for a couple of years - I had forgotten that it exists & also where to find ping under windows

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

kanewolf :

I follow you with "flatten to a single subnet" but am not sure what "configure as access points" means (tho from context I'd guess it means that only the gateway router/modem would have anything in the WAN port (which is inside the box with this hardware))

I have mutual isolation requirements between some of the subnets ... proprietary information on each ... i know I can still configure the security to be different from each other ... is that enough?

will the switches work the same way they do now for power boost for the long runs? that's why I have that row of switches ...

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

The Paladin :

Quick question - the Belden switch is a couple of feet from the Cisco E2500 "HOME-1044" ... I have the patch cord coiled, can that cause issues?

other than that, I think the ping test shows the wires are good, so I'm heading for that WIFI Analyzer app

kanewolf · Nov 21, 2017

twin_chocolate :

Here is the sticky on converting a router to an access point -- http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/36406-43-convert-wireless-router-wireless-access-point

Basically you disable DHCP on the router and connect LAN to LAN. That will create a flat (single subnet) network.

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

The Paladin :

alright ... Google tells me that Kevin Yuan is @farproc ... and the app looks like the graphic you posted ... how'd you get the pic to put onto imgur? so far I've managed to take a snapshot, save it, and re-view it, but not to send it anyplace.

so i poked around, determined that sitting here the Roku is on top of 2.4 GHz band of HOME-1044 ... so I logged into HOME-1044 and moved it ... and the Roku moved too!!!

I have this sneaking suspicion that when I move HOME-1084 I'm going to see the extender move with it, that would make sense. So clearly I can improve performance by replacing the extender with a router and setting them to different channels....

Alright, Google got me a working screen capture.

is after moving HOME-1044 from Channel 11 to Channel 7 ... the Roku moved with it!!
... then moved HOME-1044 to Channel 11
moved HOME-1084 to Channel 6, width to 20 MHz

twin_chocolate · Nov 21, 2017

kanewolf :

I get the setting all of the LANs to the same subnet ... and I get the all except gateway router have vacant WAN ports ... do I have to turn off DHCP at the gateway? I do have devices in use there.

it would be simpler - and I bet it would be way easier to configure network printers.

would the gateway router be handling ALL the DHCP or would I keep the different A/Ps handling different groups of IP addresses?

oh I get it. I vacate all AP WAN ports, the fixed IP (on gateway-router's subnet) becomes set to the LAN side of the AP, and the gateway-router handles all the DHCP (AP units have DHCP off). I re-read the article after posing my questions!

alright, I like simpler ... and it would make configuring shared devices like printers be easier to set up ... what would it do for isolation of information? do I expect any change in performance? (I'm thinking not - it seems that my bottlenecks are wifi-related) All these metal buildings!

======= ======= ======= ======= ======= ======= ======= ======= =======

private convo:

TC:

You might know this ... extra lengths of electric wire left coiled can cause some sorts of problems, chiefly cooling & inductive reactance ... can a coil of CAT5e left coiled cause reactance and/or coupling issues?

JD:

No the conductivity is still there. Now you say coil do you mean a rolled coil of CAT5e or wadded or bent up? And why are you asking?

You should be more specific as in networking or power.

TC:

Gently and neatly looped ... cuz I ping tested from your extender to cattery, getting like 2.3 ms.... [ I know waaaay toooo much about wave guides rated up to 18 GHz, their care & feeding & failure modes : I did not bend the CAT5e waveguide ]

So I'm trying to diagnose the wifi problems back here [studios and craftrooms] : they seem to be wifi issues not wire issues ... downloading a wifi analyzer app & trying to wrap my head around what it is displaying.

JD:

You are just pinging from router to router of course you'll get an excellent result. Need to patch into switch and see what it's receiving and then look

at maybe the routers thereafter

it's a ping

i'll tell you one thing not sure what you changed but i'm down [Cisco57078] from 10 to 2.6 [Mbps] and 17 ping to 105 [ms]

TC:

"patch in"?

JD:

Yes

Those signal strengths are at a decent level for utilization it's that they are not receiving bandwidth or not able to push it if they are. Just like your situation at the head end. Front to back.

In this case, it usually would be back end to front end but geographically your network starts at the front of the property LOL just tried to be witty uhh not so much

TC:

well I've got the router formerly in [QTRY], now in [G4] & [metal roll-up] door open....

JD:

And Cisco[57078] here is behind a VPN and the only signal you get is a 2.4 [GHz] over there

TC:

I'm mixed ... which Cisco is behind what VPN? and what is only getting 2.4G?

JD:

[TC], I'll get back to you in a bit trying to help [my daughter] [with] her homework I think it's harder for me than her

TC:

kk

JD:

You have me all day Sunday if you want help with network

TC:

Ok

kanewolf · Nov 21, 2017

No you only disable DHCP on the APs. Your primary router continues to be your one-and-only DHCP server.

twin_chocolate · Nov 22, 2017

oh!! now I see the nature of the problem - or potential problem - bandwidth clutter!!

okay, time to go see where I have interference from neighboring webs, and see if I can sort out channels that don't interfere with each other AND not interfere with neighbor-webs!!

twin_chocolate · Nov 22, 2017

kanewolf :

okay, I think I get how to do this. I'll have to do it during daylight - do I expect it to alter network performance at all? I'm inclined to solve my speed problem separately so I can keep track of what I did. Also, what does it do regarding network security?

The Paladin · Nov 22, 2017

basically --cable Internet--> [cable modem/router/dhcp]------> [switches/hubs etc.]======> [router made into AP/ NO DHCP] (gateway 1st primary router connected to cable modem) ^^^

about the image from phone I use Samsung, so easy, capture screen, connect to computer, copy file over to desktop, load imgur.com and send it, copy link. simple

kanewolf · Nov 22, 2017

Part of your RF congestion problem is at least two of the WIFI sources are set for 40Mhz channel width. Notice the double width humps from the dlink and another source. Those are bad (selfish) WIFI sources. They will cause overlap just about every way. If that isn't your hardware, then there isn't much you can do about RF congestion. Moving to 5Ghz for as many devices as possible is your best bet.

twin_chocolate · Nov 22, 2017

kanewolf :

I did notice that the wide band WiFis are hogs, and reset mine to 20 MHz bandwidth (the "dlink" aren't mine) ... if my devices are mostly laptops and phones, presumably I dig into their manuals to find out what is capabile of 5 GHz ... and how to set them....

I've scribbled out a channel plan on a paper copy of the original map I posted ... I'm going to reset channels & sniff results with Wifi Analyzer in the important work zones....

twin_chocolate · Nov 22, 2017

alright - my current status is ... I have enough notes to "flatten" my net to a single subnet, which I will need to schedule during daylight when I can get all my users off.

I "sniffed" using Wifi Analyzer, the bandwidth clutter last night & have reset wifi channels on all routers this morning. I'm heading out to measure signals in all Work Zones next - will post results when I have them.

Meanwhile, I have amended my Network Diagram to (a) show the Roku, (b) show the new, non-default channel settings (magenta), and (c) I have marked the Work Zones on the net-diagram in green.

For clarity, this is Network Diagram RevA.

The speed crucial work zones are the conference room near HOME-1070 and the art/music studios near HOME-1084.

Now that the Roku is on the diagram, all wifi traffic not indicated here is NOT in my control. The Roku tracks channel changes on HOME-1044.

I do not have login credentials for the extender Cisco57078, but one of my tenants does. This is a multi-use complex : home + tenants + 3 businesses + part 91 airport.

Off I go to measure & post ... I think I have enough to do before/after for all work zones. Then I might be ready to look at learning how to do firmware updates. I'm open to replacing boxes, but I really prefer to understand what boxes I need to replace with what before I do that.

how to effectively use switches, router/APs

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