SATA3 SSD on SATA1 host - problem

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Patrixus

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Hello everybody!
I would like to use two SSD's SAMSUNG 840 EVO 1TB on an old AsRock K7upgrade-880 motherboard (with the latest BIOS).
Unfortunatelly, the motherboard doesn't "see" the SSD's connected to the SATA ports.
If I connect the SSD's (via adapters) to the IDE ports - the SSD's are recognized properly, so the SSD's are functioning fine.
Also, I tried an old SATA hard drive (not SSD, I don't remember the name, a friend came with it only to try it) connected to the SATA ports - it was recognized also, so my mobo SATA ports are ok.
So, where is the problem and what can I do to solve it?
I have read on forums something about reducing the speed of SATA hard drives to 1.5Gb/s via jumpers, but the SSD's don't have jumpers...
Thank you in advance!
 
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Chris_961

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An external SATA card might help if you desperately must make those SSD's work with that particular motherboard.

If you have free/unpopulated PCI expansion slots I would buy a PCI SATA Raid controller like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Semlos-Internal-Controller-Sil3114-Chipset/dp/B00L2X6DE6/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_147_tr_t_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GH1V1BXRC8K415WWYZJ7

and see if that works
 
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Patrixus

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Hello GhislainG!

Yes, I understand the theory: the SSD's are compatible with SATA1, but practically they are not seen...
That chipset you were saying about, is it involved in "seeing" a simple SSD or is it responsible with the RAID function?
I am asking this because I was not talking about RAID, as long as my SSD's don't appear at all in BIOS.
Is there no way to "slow down" the SSD to 1.5Gb/s or any other practical thing to do, to "help" the motherboard recognizing the SSD's?
 
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Patrixus

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Hello, Chris!
Yes, I have free PCI slots. But we are talking about the old PCI, not PCIe, all the devices connected will "share" the same "lane". So, I wonder, finally the IDE connection speed via IDE-SATA adapter, wouldn't be superior to the connection via PCI SATA RAID controller?
The Magician Samsung software ( I am not familiar with it) couldn't help in my particular case? Or any other practical thing to "help" SATA slots to "see" the SSD's?
I am sorry for insisting, but you guys are my last hope...
 
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GhislainG

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Could you explain why you want to install 1 TB SSDs in such an old system that isn't fast enough to match their performance? The VIA chipset most likely is the issue, but there's nothing that you can do about it other than adding a PCI SATA II controller which isn't a good idea. The controller has to be compatible with the old Via chipset and SATA III SSDs; since the controller proposed by Chris_961 isn't compatible with a newer motherboard based on a Via chipset, I wouldn't presume that it will work with yours.

https://www.newegg.com/global/au/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124020 https://www.amazon.com/SYBA-SD-LP-SIL2IR-Profile-2-Port-SIL3512/dp/B001JTO79Q They may work, but I couldn't find evidence they work with SATA III SSDs because such a combination doesn't make sense.

Upgrade your PC and be done with it.
 
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Patrixus

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Hello again GhislainG!
Related to your suggestion - I do have a new PC, functionning perfectly with all my apps. What I try to do with the old one it's just a challenge (on one side) and I am just not ready to throw it to the garbage (on other side). So, how could I phrase my "explain"? Your suggestion (with buying a new PC) "doesn't make sense" :).

Please read my question for Chris, related to his earlier suggestion: using a PCI SATA controller together with other PCI devices wouldn't reduce the speed transfer (because they are sharing the same "lane") even under the speed of IDE connection (as I said this is how I am using the SSD right now, with an adapter) ?

I've read here (old forum discussion):
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1266161
about someone with the same problem, using something called "optibay extreme". I know it is for laptops, but i don't want to use it for its "classical" designation, but just for its EVENTUAL slowing down my SSD speed from 6Gb/s to 1.5Gb/s.
Did I understand well (or my poor English just made me understand what I would like to understand)? Could it work?
It is really not important if I have to invest a little more in this old machine if it will finally function well.
Thank you again for you time and patience!
 
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Chris_961

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@Patrixus

The PCI card I posted earlier in this thread is not just for raid. It can be used for an ordinary SATA connection, (through the external SATA controller in the card). I simply choose it because it is ONE of the cheepest cards on Amazon right now and it has decent reviews

I understand your concerns about using a SATA PCI card (because they all share the same lanes). But honestly using a PCI adapter card or a SATA to IDE is your only choice.

The existing SATA controller in the board cheeky isn't playing nicely with your Samsung SSDs, so remove it as an issue an bypass it with an external card or sata to IDE adapter.

Furthermore, the Samsung SSDs can at least operate at close to SATA 2 speeds with the right PCI card. The SATA to IDE adapter will limit you in speed as well, by perhaps the same amounts. Also I doubt the Samsung software will help.

I will make another post soon with additional info.
 
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Chris_961

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Please watch this video

I feel it will be useful for this situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edmg43t28jg


Time stamp
6:37 Information on both solutions discussed earlier in the thread
 
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Patrixus

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Thanks a lot for both of you!
One last question - from my mobo manual:
- the PCI slots are specification 2.3 , 32-bit
- the IDE are ATA 133 / Ultra DMA Mode 6
If I am not wrong, both connections have the same 133MB/s speed?
If yes, then a PCI SATA expansion card will not be faster than the IDE connection? Is there another advantage to use a PCI SATA controller vs. what I use already through IDE-SATA adapter?
By the way, I use the same type of adapter as in Chris video.
Thank you!
 
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Patrixus

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I just realised the PCI could be at 33 MHz or 66 MHz and I can't discover in the manual which type are my mobo PCI slots.
If they have a 66MHz clock, then this connection will be two times faster than IDE?
How could I find their frequency?
 
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GhislainG

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The PCI slots on your mobo are 33 MHz, 5V, 32-bit. 64-bit PCI-X slots found on legacy servers are required for 66 MHz. http://blog.duropc.com/2013/pci-x-explained Don't ignore the fact that your motherboard's chipset was released more than 13 years ago; even if you install a PCI controller, the transfer speed most likely won't improve over your current setup. ATA-133 is fine for hard disks that were available a decade ago. Since the PCI bus is not fast enough to support Gigabit Ethernet cards, it will severely bottleneck any SSD.
 
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Patrixus

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According to this (the second line from the table):
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/xeon-cpus-intel-p4-extreme-platform,808-4.html
it seems to exist some PCI compliant 2.3 functioning at 66MHz, 266MB,s
As my mobo manual doesn't specify, I was just wondering...
 
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GhislainG

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You are absolutely correct; PCI can support 66 MHz (and even 133 MHz on a 64-bit bus). Please note that 66 MHz requires 3.3 volt signaling, but your PCI slots are 5 volts. As shown here https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c00354418 32-bit slots usually are limited to 33 MHz; they definitely are capped to 33 MHz with the Via KT880 chipset that wasn't designed for servers. In the end you'll end up with fast SSDs running at the speed of a good hard disk, but the latency will be very low. Overall they'll be faster than hard disks, but way below their expected performance level.
 
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Chris_961

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I agree with @GhislainG

If you're serious about this begin buying the stuff you'll need to set it up.

I think by now We've gone through all of the solutions and performance implications.
 
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