Extremely unstable connection

iorpim

Prominent
Sep 24, 2017
5
0
510
Hello, I've been having connection issues for the last few months, after a lot of troubleshooting I was able to (apparently) narrow it down to the connection between my second and third router, for illustration purposes, here's my current network map:
VGbyJMn.png

And here's a quick "up"time checker, to illustrate what I mean with "unstable":
hBAA828.png


When internet is down I still have connection to router III, however, it fails to ping router II, what seems really weird to me, as they are connected by cable, I tried enabling WDS to see if it could be a cable issue, however, nothing changed, the instability continues, the down times are usually short, making it just slightly inconvenient when just browsing, however, unusable when trying to download something, VOIP, or mainly, when playing something. I tried connecting directly to router II in order to check it's stability, however, the Wi-Fi signal is way too faint for me to have any decent connection, although, I think the connection between router I and II is fine, as for when internet is down I can't ping router II from router III, so, this seems to be the weak link.
Are there anything else that can be done? I tried tinkering a lot with all the routers setting, with no success, I should also include that while I can make any software changes, I do not have permission to physically change anything, what I would definitely do if I could, this place's network is a mess.
 

Ralston18

Titan
Moderator
Double (triple) NATs.

How many devices are on your network? Are you trying to establish subnets within your network?

Your diagram (very helpful) indicates that all three routers have DHCP enabled.

Only one router should have DHCP enabled.

And you may be using WAN ports where a LAN port should be used.

Also have you tinkered with the subnet masks?

Overall can you add more information about the networking requirements?










 

iorpim

Prominent
Sep 24, 2017
5
0
510


I tried disabling DHCP, however, for unknown reasons, it doesn't forward any IP addresses, requiring me to manually setup an address for each device, it used to work before the router II got replaced by the DL-524, any idea on how to troubleshoot that?
Unfortunately, none of the routers have explicit NAT settings, and I haven't tried messing with subnet maks yet, to be honest I don't know much about them, would it be helpful in this case?
As for networking requirements, it's a simple(as simple as a 3+ router network can get) domestic network, all that is required is internet connection across all devices.

Edit: I forgot to mention, there are around 15~40 devices in the network, it varies from time to time
 

Ralston18

Titan
Moderator
For port forwarding you need static IP's on the target computers.

So if you assign a static IP address to a computer you must: 1) use an IP address outside of the available DHCP IP address range and 2) reserve the static IP for the computer via the computer's MAC.

Otherwise the router(s) are likely to assign a DHCP IP address to a computer only to have the same IP address appear when the computer/device with that static IP address joins the network. And if three routers are assigning IP addresses that makes everything all the more "mixed up".

Read the tutorial via the following link:

http://www.steves-internet-guide.com/understanding-dhcp/

Then read other similar tutorials for more information and to learn more about what all is involved and is necessary. You can find many, many articles on line.

Also re-read the User Guides/Manuals for your routers. Expand your diagram by making it into a plan to get all the devices communicating on your network

Expand your diagram to include the other devices and then plan out the physical connectivity and IP addressing scheme.

Feel free to post the expanded diagram. There are some folks in this Forum who can automatically spot issues and know the fixes. Or perhaps other more viable options that you can use or apply..

Get all the devices up and running via one router as the main router to provide (and to be the only provider of) DHCP IP addresses to network devices.

Then decide which device(s) are to have static IP's with or without Port forwarding.

Your main router's User Guide/Manual should explain how to configure port forwarding. If not, or if the instructions are not clear, then again go online and look for explanations and "how-to's". Far more than I can type out and explain....

Go step by step, keep notes, focus on one requirement at a time. Do not move on until the immediate problem at hand is resolved.

You may also find that some research and reading regarding "best practices" for home networks to be helpful as well. Articles can focus on wired, wireless, security, or some combination thereof.


 

iorpim

Prominent
Sep 24, 2017
5
0
510


Sorry for late response, it took me a while to get permission to make changes in the network. So, two days ago the network died altogether, I had already asked for permission to make changes in the local sub network, so, I was asked to check the main network, there was much more than triple NAT, like quintuple NAT, I had to rewire and reconfigure a great part of the network, as well as solve many IP conflicts that were breaking the network, now this is what I got, as far as I was able to map it, none of the wires was labeled and many disappeared into the walls, I kept running around(literally; there were a lot of stairs…) ARPing and disconnecting wires.

pihZL2C.png


There are likely more devices connected and, as I mentioned in the diagram, there are around 4 routers missing, I think.
Again I have a similar problem, my internet is still unstable, I can ping any of the devices all times, except for the gateway, it stops responding from time to time, it doesn't respond to pings or ARP requests, rebooting the modem, or waiting a while seems to fix the problem, but, only for a few seconds/minutes.

This network is still a frustrating mess, and to be honest, I am not sure how to further fix it.

Edit: I can't seem to ping the gateway also, when it is working I can only ARP it; trying to connect, or ping it gives me a time out message.

Edit 2: Current uptime:
l81r2h6.jpg

And, I forgot to mention, now, all the routers are connected through LAN ports.
 

Ralston18

Titan
Moderator
So the network is in a work environment.

30 users with roughly 2 devices each would be 60 devices.

Who is giving the permissions? Or otherwise giving you instructions and requirements? Technology is one thing. Office politics is another....

Overall, in all fairness and honesty, I do not know enough about your circumstances and overall situation.

Meaning I have more questions intended to be productive versus accusatory. Seems that you have inherited (one way or another) a network mess.

What devices, if any, have static IP addresses assigned? E.g., Router III, the printer?

And are those static IP addresses: 1) outside of the allowed range of IP addresses being assigned by the Thompson modem/router (192.168.0.1) and 2) reserved on the Thompson modem/router via the device's various MACs?

Check the allowed DHCP IP address range on the Thompson modem/router. The range must be large enough to accommodate the 60+ devices requesting IP addresses.

[Side bar: I am also wondering if that modem/router is up to the task - deal with that as we go....]

What about the network wiring involved - Cat 5e for wired connections? Any wall ports and patch panels? Any bad connection or connections will wreak havoc. Likely to be intermittent and even more disruptive and thus harder to find. You mentioned weak wireless signals - what distances are involved?

Here are some suggestions based on what I would do:

The first thing that must be done is for you to go around to every device and make some notes regarding make/model, versions, IP's assigned (static), MACs, etc..

Visit each user to learn what devices they have and/or use. End users do not like change especially if they have some perception that what you are doing will disrupt their work (or lack thereof). Blaming the devices and network is a common method of dodging responsibility..... Use diplomacy so the users understand your objective is to improve the network's performance. Not blame them or make them work harder per se.

Check their cables and wall ports as applicable. Cat 5e cables at least and inspect the wall outlets. Replace any damaged cables with a known working cable. Ethernet wall ports should be checked to ensure the punched down wires are properly and firmly in place. Likewise for any patch panels.

You mentioned "re-wiring" so I trust that you have some understanding and experience with the physical levels involved.

Enough "homework" for the moment. For the most part my sense is that you just need some time (aka "peace and quiet") to gain an understanding of the network as it is.

And what you need to do to fix it all.

The "swamp" and "alligator" analogy seems to fit.....




Continue with the diagrams and labeling. Very important to be able to see the big picture. Fill it all in as you go.






 

iorpim

Prominent
Sep 24, 2017
5
0
510


It is not an office environment, I live in a building which includes internet service, there are around 30 apartments, and this network is supposed to supply all of them, I've been trying to fix it as it is unusable most of the day. I've been given permission by the building owners, and actually recently hired to look into it in it's entirety, what would be a great opportunity to fix this once for all, however, the building owners are an older couple, and this whole network has been unorganized-ly growing in a "just run cables around and plug them" fashion, this adds another layer of complication, I have to deal with the current responsible for the network, the husband, and, I know he won't be very welcoming of aggressive/any changes. Most of the users connect through Wi-Fi, as wired connections aren't "officially endorsed", per say, the routers are quite well distributed around, maybe even a little too much, I would say a few of them are even unnecessary.

All the router have static IP addresses, out of the DHCP range, which is currently 192.168.0.20-200, I wanted to tweak this a little bit more, however, they don't have the modem's user and password, I tried all possible default and MAC combinations with no luck.
I am also wondering if this modem can handle this many connections, as for, it is much more stable during the night, when there are exponentially less users, what would be the best way to handle this? Request another device from the ISP? Is there a way to reduce the load in the modem? There are plans to expand the network by getting another internet plan; keeping the current in the lower block, and the new for the upper block, this should help, as not only it will reduce the traffic by 50%, having two modems, as, it will require some network restructuring, however, this is likely to still take a while to happen, if, it ever happens.

The cables seems to be all Cat 5e, but, I wasn't able to inspect all of them, I would say at least Cat 5(I hope). There are no wall ports, no panels, just, confusing, very long wires all around, some hanging, exposed to wind, sun and rain, all very cable-healthy; lots of broken connectors, what reminds me, I should buy more RJ45 terminals, many, many more…
The weak signal I mentioned earlier was for a more distant router, there is a closer one which with a little antenna adjustment rendered me a 80%-ish signal strength, usually the distance is not bigger than 10 meters clear.

As the cables don't reach the end users I should be able to handle it without having them even knowing it, but, I guess I will still need to check all the cables to all the routers, I know they "work", however I don't know how stable and/or effective they currently are, and, I should also re-crimp most of them to avoid any loose connections.

By the way, as a side note, what would be the best way to convince the owners that this network is already too big and too wide, literally(it must span more than 200m in cables already, if not more), too keep handling it like this? How to "sell" an infrastructure improvement?

Oh, another great bright side, the "heart" of the network, the modem, router I, switch I and II, are inside their living room and bedroom, making it very accessible.
 

Ralston18

Titan
Moderator
With respect to the rental agreements what, if any, provisions are in place with respect to internet services for the tenants? Any QoS terms therein?

Any "we will's" and/or "you shall nots"? By no means is there any intent to make a legal issue of it all. Just to ensure that some tenants are not actively doing things that add to your problems. Or providing them with some means to sue for breech..

The landlords are indeed key for you. They must be made to understand that tenants will continue to complain and otherwise make things difficult if network services are not available or provided in accordance with the rental agreement.

And maybe someday, once the network and services are up to useable and functional standards, the rental rates for new tenants could possibly be increased.

Print the following article out for them:

https://www.madebywifi.com/blog/5-reasons-landlords-provide-wifi-internet-tenants/

From your viewpoint you need to:

1) Continue to trace wires and map the network in detail.

[Question: Where are those routers: in apartments or some hall closet with wires going though holes in walls and ceilings to the tenant's PCs or personal routers?]

2) Start a second diagram that shows how the network should be setup; e.g., fewer routers, more switches, some strategic patch panels, even apartment ethernet wall jacks. You already seem to have some thoughts about how to do that.

3) A plan on how you plan to or would get from 1) to 2).

The plan should include specific actions, work hour estimates, costs for each action, along with priorities and possible options.

It is a major overhaul and a lot of work I am sure.

Swap out routers with unmanaged switches. Probably less costly and nothing to configure. Select the routers and switch locations carefully. You may, for example, replace a router serving 4 or 5 tenants versus a router serving just one or two people. And selectively switch routers around using a newer router (or previously replaced router) somewhere else.

No doubt that the plan will cost money. So you will need to prioritize the actions to get the most results for the least cost. Trade-offs will be necessary.

The owners must be convinced that doing nothing will only make things worse and that some savvy tenant might actually use the rental agreement against them if the agreement does include internet connectivity. And may even do so without any specific language in the rental agreement..... Such is the world we live in sometimes.

And all those routers, if property of the owners, may invoke some liabilities (rightly or wrongly) for how the routers are being used. Not a lawyer so will set further such speculations aside. Just thinking out loud a bit.

Who owns the Thompson modem: ISP or owners? Do you have the User Guide/Manual by any chance? Or for any of the routers?

And, for the moment, one last question. I would be remiss if I do not ask: is this project something you really wish to do and follow through on?

You mentioned being recently hired ("employee", "contractor", "handyman"?) to do so and I suspect that your answer would be a yes.

Whatever the arrangement, you must work out some formal agreement with expectations and boundaries.

Ask the owners for a budget amount they deem acceptable and work out what can be done with that budget to garner some higher level of performance. Or be pro-active and give them three plans that you deem viable and the costs for each plan.

Go high and ambitious. E.g.: 3 plans: 1) an 100% ideal plan, 2) a solves 80% plan, and 3) a low end solves 50% plan. You set the criteria and measurements for "success" and the actions needed to achieve the applicable level of success.

Let them pick the plan. And be ready to accept that and execute.
 

TRENDING THREADS