Do CPUs ever die slow?

Rexer · Apr 26, 2018

When a CPU goes bad, does it go out all at once or can it ever be a slow death?
I'm working on a Intel i7 3770k I got from a friend for a couple hundred bucks. Nice new stuff it. But has a intermittent problem on start up I can't identify. It sometimes fails to post. I can see the fans running, hear the HDD humming, clicking away and the board LEDs shinning. Even the mouse LEDs light up but no monitor.
The guts of this computer are
Windows 10 64
Intel i7 3770k 3.5
Asus P8Z77 V-LX MB
WD HDD 1TB 7200
16 gb 4x4 Hyper X, 1600 ram
XFX R9 390x
XFX XTR 750w PSU
Corsair H100i cooler
It's a pretty nifty rig and I think it's a salvageable. But before I spend a few bucks on it, I figure it's wise to ask you guys for an opinion. I'd like to economize as much as I can rather than pay a hefty cost for obsolete parts.
It just has this start up problem sometimes. What my friend says he's done has me stumped. He's replaced Ram, PSU, GPU (several times), monitor and connections. Doesn't beep. No BSOD. Just frequent black screens on start up. I ruled out the GPU when we tried to start it from the motherboard DVI port. No cigar. Didn't change the problem.
He gave me a few clues to make me think it's the motherboard.
After a long night of gaming, it would not start the next day and had to be shut down, PSU power off and do a power button drained. A few times during intense gaming, it completely shut down and had to do the same process. But it would restart. That doesn't sound like a bad CPU does it?
Do bad CPU ever have intermittent glitches?
Do you think it could be a problem within the motherboard, like a bad capacitor?
What are the chances it's software? Does Windows 10 ever interfere with a post?

jaslion · Apr 26, 2018

Rexer :

When a CPU goes bad, does it go out all at once or can it ever be a slow death?
I'm working on a Intel i7 3770k I got from a friend for a couple hundred bucks. Nice new stuff it. But has a intermittent problem on start up I can't identify. It sometimes fails to post. I can see the fans running, hear the HDD humming, clicking away and the board LEDs shinning. Even the mouse LEDs light up but no monitor.
The guts of this computer are
Windows 10 64
Intel i7 3770k 3.5
Asus P8Z77 V-LX MB
WD HDD 1TB 7200
16 gb 4x4 Hyper X, 1600 ram
XFX R9 390x
XFX XTR 750w PSU
Corsair H100i cooler
It's a pretty nifty rig and I think it's a salvageable. But before I spend a few bucks on it, I figure it's wise to ask you guys for an opinion. I'd like to economize as much as I can rather than pay a hefty cost for obsolete parts.
It just has this start up problem sometimes. What my friend says he's done has me stumped. He's replaced Ram, PSU, GPU (several times), monitor and connections. Doesn't beep. No BSOD. Just frequent black screens on start up. I ruled out the GPU when we tried to start it from the motherboard DVI port. No cigar. Didn't change the problem.
He gave me a few clues to make me think it's the motherboard.
After a long night of gaming, it would not start the next day and had to be shut down, PSU power off and do a power button drained. A few times during intense gaming, it completely shut down and had to do the same process. But it would restart. That doesn't sound like a bad CPU does it?
Do bad CPU ever have intermittent glitches?
Do you think it could be a problem within the motherboard, like a bad capacitor?
What are the chances it's software? Does Windows 10 ever interfere with a post?

Basically rule out the cpu since those things are the last component to die.
This point more to a psu / mobo issue. The pc is on the older side and the 390x being the power hungry monster it is might be giving the psu a too hard time.

Could also very much be the board failing.

InvalidError · Apr 26, 2018

Since it looks like you've already tried replacing just about everything other than the CPU and MoBo, the problem is likely to be one of those two. If you haven't tried re-seating the CPU, you might want to try that, just in case contacts have corroded a bit over the past however many years since the CPU was last re-installed.

A dead CPU doesn't magically resurrect and work fine for a while, it stays dead. PCs randomly failing to boot is more a motherboard or PSU thing. Poor transient response on the motherboard VRM due to failed/degraded capacitors or other components would cause the CPU to crash when voltage+noise get too far out of tolerance and this could lead to random boot success when you get lucky enough to stay within tolerances. Usually, I'd blame the PSU first for this but since you already tried a different one and got the same result, I'll set that aside for now.

dontlistentome · Apr 26, 2018

The CPU is usually a 'it works or it doesn't' thing, not counting if you overclock it. The motherboard can have glitches from a lot of things. All those caps won't last forever.

Karadjgne · Apr 26, 2018

Yes, cpus are in a constant state of dying slow, from the first moment they receive power. But by slow, that means for normally used cpus in excess of 20 years. Generally a cpu will be obsolete Long before it dies. Abuse changes that. Doesn't matter if it's from OC or lack of cleaning the heatsink, high temps will speed up the process of degradation. 10-15 years on average. Excessive abuse, 5-10 years.

A cpu and a hdd have that in common. Gets to a point where degradation in one spot starts affecting performance and ability, then a little more, and more until you start getting errors. Unlike hdds, you can't separate the bad areas, or fix them, they are burnt toast, forever blackened. At that point, you'll always get the same failures, whether it's pcie, memory controller, igpu or whatever is toast. Will not suddenly work for a minute. At that point, the cpu is done. Chuck it.

Only time in 30 years I've ever seen a cpu suddenly and irrevocably die was caused by a massive failure of the VRM's (voltage regulatory circuitry surrounding the socket, usually on the left under heatsinks) when an idiot decided that if 1.25v was stock, 2.25v had to be better for OC. The resulting failure shorted out the mobo sending a spike through the cpu.

But considering all the other caps, diodes, resistors, chipsets, thermistors, mosfets and other tiny components on a motherboard, that's almost always going to take a hit before anything gets to the cpu.

gingerrankin · Apr 26, 2018

It sounds like a problem with the "fast startup" of windows. Currently when "we close the computer", really windows does not turn off completely to allow windows to start faster. Windows saves information about the status at the moment of closing (with a minimum of energy), which is used at the next startup. On some computers this causes problems at startup. The fact that your solutions by disconnecting the PSU could confirm it because then windows must start from zero.

At black screen you can try use the Windows key + Ctrl + Shift + B keyboard shortcut to wake up your display.

Also you can try disable the windows fast startup. You can easily search for guides on how to do it.

BobCharlie · May 1, 2018

Several problems I've run into over the years (by NO means a pro):

-Thermal paste gets baked over time, either from too high of an OC on air, poor dust maintenance on the cooler (causes heat soak which gradually worsens and incrementally bumps temps up until fans are running 100% while you are surfing a forum, etc.). I've seen this happen with GPU's as well. You'll start getting crashes that might be appear random, then it'll run fine, etc. GPU typically causes driver crashes, etc. Cleaning the surface of the chip and cooler backing (I use a dry cloth) then reapplying the CORRECT thermal paste, and letting it set. If old paste flakes off like old paint, it needs it.

-Go into the bios, and double-check the boot order. I have a MSI board with the UEFI and in the past, for whatever reason, I had an issue with boot order priority. Mainly, something was set before the OS HD/SSD, and it wouldn't load. I think I had used a default everything or reset a bios battery, etc. and it reverted the boot order, though I'd expect it to stay on a black screen.

-Run the scannow command (google it if unsure) and see if it detects any corrupt/missing files. Forced resets, power outages, etc. might cause a file to get corrupt, which might be days/months later before you start seeing something like a crash, etc. FWIW, I ran it for the 1st time after PC had been set up, nearly 2 years prior, and it had something like 60+ files that needed to be fixed.

-DOUBLE-CHECK all connections. This means mobo, PSU, GPU, HD/SSD, RAM, etc. I had a cable loose once (it looked seated, but wasn't) after swapping some things out, and it'd cause a random black screen/crash as well.

If it were me, I'd do the thermal paste regardless, due to age, clean the cooler while out (can rinse and let it air dry 100%- shake it to get any water pooling out; put it on a heater vent for 15 minutes to get the moisture to evaporate, etc. as water + electronics = fail) and go over ALL cables/connections. Then, I'd run the scannow to be safe. Let it fix any issues and see if it continues.

Rexer · May 1, 2018

I really don't like messing with the cpu and motherboard. But I'm headed that way. Friday, I popped in my spare PSU (Seasonic X 750w) and replaced the GPU with a gtx 970 and it was fine rolling for a couple days. Then yesterday evening, it black screened when I started it.
The point is, the motherboard & cpu have been together for years and I'm afraid breaking up the pair, one component will die. The old cpu being transferred to a newer board, might be too much for it to handle.
This is my only hope. -The guy I bought it from says he's never clocked it. So it's probable at stock voltage and clocks, it's still good.
Ordered a board on Ebay, from China..Meh, hope I don't get scammed.

BobCharlie · May 1, 2018

You can google your chip (or intel in general) and watch a video on how to apply thermal paste. It's very easy.

Technically, you really don't need to pull the cpu out of the mobo. Just unclamp the heatsink, and it *should* come off. Worse case, it's really stuck, in which case lift up gently and the chip will come out with it, where it can be easier to break the bond between the two. Just be mindful of the pins.

Back when xbox 360 had the infamous "red ring of death", THAT was actually just a thermal paste issue from excessive temps. While redoing the paste on the 360 was more involved, it actually corrected it.

TBH,, I wouldn't buy a Chinese board. Chances are, it'll have it's own problems. Can buy from a reputable US company, new/used for cheap, if avoiding top-shelf. And TBVH, you'd need to pull everything out anyways, and add fresh thermal paste regardless. The paste costs like $5. Just avoid the silver paste.

Karadjgne · May 1, 2018

Good pastes if correctly applied (Noctua, gelid extreme, Phanteks, arctic MX4 etc) will only ever need to be applied once and will last longer than the usable lifetime of the cpu.

Some pastes (such as arctic silver 5) have a usable lifespan before drying out (I've seen AS5 last a whopping 6 months on high usage cpus), so are best avoided.

Rexer · May 1, 2018

InvalidError :

Since it looks like you've already tried replacing just about everything other than the CPU and MoBo, the problem is likely to be one of those two. If you haven't tried re-seating the CPU, you might want to try that, just in case contacts have corroded a bit over the past however many years since the CPU was last re-installed.

A dead CPU doesn't magically resurrect and work fine for a while, it stays dead. PCs randomly failing to boot is more a motherboard or PSU thing. Poor transient response on the motherboard VRM due to failed/degraded capacitors or other components would cause the CPU to crash when voltage+noise get too far out of tolerance and this could lead to random boot success when you get lucky enough to stay within tolerances. Usually, I'd blame the PSU first for this but since you already tried a different one and got the same result, I'll set that aside for now.

Heh, Since the cpu block is a nearly fail free, I never gave reseating the cpu much thought. I'll try that. Thanks!

Rexer · May 1, 2018

Karadjgne :

Whoa. Your kidding me. I use AS5 on everything. But I will take that note in consideration. Thanks. I had friend recommend me Corsair products are 'the best', 'you can't beat Corsair'. So I blindly bought a Corsair case, a RM750 psu and H-60 cooler. All of which failed. So I know not everything's gold. I don't have much heating problems on most of the computers I've worked on but I'll check my paste jobs and see how they're doing.

Karadjgne · May 1, 2018

Years ago, we're talking before gaming rigs were really gaming rigs and the DX2/66 was a beast, paste was not important, just another one of those hard to find things that cost $20 for a tiny tube good for 2-3 pastings. Arctic got smart, started selling tubs of their paste, good for 6-8 pastes, for just $6. Next thing you know AS5 is on everybody's list of things to get. Word of mouth spread it like wildfire.

As is, AS5 is not a bad paste, it's pretty mediocre, about ½ way between the best and toothpaste. And it has properties just like toothpaste, it'll dry out after @200 heat cycles (that's cold to extreme heat, not normal usage). So irregular torture testing is not really healthy for it.

Most of the better 'pastes' are closer to thermal grease than thermal paste, so don't suffer from drying out for years and aren't affected by thermal cycles. Noctua, Grizzly Kryonaut, Gelid Extreme etc.

So if you use it, that's fine, not like it is going anywhere in a hurry, but I've found it's usually good to do a repaste every 2 years or so with AS5. I've got an old Athlon on Noctua thats not been touched in over 10 years, other than cleaning the miserable fan/heatsink and is still running the same temps as when it was applied.

Rexer · May 1, 2018

BobCharlie :

Thanks for responding. The computer's not overheating as far as I can see. In fact the CPU hasn't gone far over 50c during the games I tested on it.
I ran Battlefield 4 which is real heater box online and the cpu stayed relatively cool, being that it uses a lot CPU power. The guy I got it from said he never overclocked this chip (I don't see the fun in not overclocking). Ran Call of Duty Advanced Warfare which ran even cooler. Course the GPU was a different story but at no time was above 72c in Battlefield 3 and in Call of Duty AW was 10c cooler. There doesn't seem to be an issue overheating.
It black screens at start up which happens before post. I have to start it by turning off the PSU, hold the start button to drain residual power for a few seconds, turn the PSU on then press the start button. It's the only way to avoid the black screen.

Rexer · May 1, 2018

Karadjgne :

Years ago, we're talking before gaming rigs were really gaming rigs and the DX2/66 was a beast, paste was not important, just another one of those hard to find things that cost $20 for a tiny tube good for 2-3 pastings. Arctic got smart, started selling tubs of their paste, good for 6-8 pastes, for just $6. Next thing you know AS5 is on everybody's list of things to get. Word of mouth spread it like wildfire.

As is, AS5 is not a bad paste, it's pretty mediocre, about ½ way between the best and toothpaste. And it has properties just like toothpaste, it'll dry out after @200 heat cycles (that's cold to extreme heat, not normal usage). So irregular torture testing is not really healthy for it.

Most of the better 'pastes' are closer to thermal grease than thermal paste, so don't suffer from drying out for years and aren't affected by thermal cycles. Noctua, Grizzly Kryonaut, Gelid Extreme etc.

So if you use it, that's fine, not like it is going anywhere in a hurry, but I've found it's usually good to do a repaste every 2 years or so with AS5. I've got an old Athlon on Noctua thats not been touched in over 10 years, other than cleaning the miserable fan/heatsink and is still running the same temps as when it was applied.

Funny that you mentioned Noctua. I found a tube in my parts bin the other day. I'll give it a go.

Karadjgne · May 1, 2018

It's been my goto paste for years, not only because it's one of the best, but very easy to use and spreads easily. Although gotta say, Grizzly Kryonaut is starting to look very good as well, I just haven't needed to try that yet.

Rexer · May 1, 2018

gingerrankin :

I thought this too (windows fast startup). Wished it worked. Black screen happens before post. Monitor says 'no input signal'.

Karadjgne · May 2, 2018

Try going into bios, look for CSM. Make sure it's enabled if disabled. Disable Secure boot. (fast boot is different than secure boot.)

InvalidError · May 3, 2018

Karadjgne :

Any paste based on mineral/silicone oil + graphite/alum oxide/zinc oxide/other chemically inert filler would outlast the application's useful life when left alone. What provides the actual thermal transfer is the solid components, not the base oil. The oil mainly serves for convenient application, self-spreading, lubrication to help the particles pack tighter together and to prevent the powdered solids from turning into airborne dust.

When pastes "fail", it is almost always due to mechanical shock breaking the caked-up powder after the excess lubricant has oozed out of the thermal interface, at which point the paste is unable to flow to heal itself. If you ask someone who complains about CPU temperature mysteriously shooting up if anything happened to the PC in recent history after years of not doing anything to it, most will have swapped out a PSU, GPU, RAM, fans on or around the heatsink, etc., nudging the heatsink and breaking the solidified paste in the process, possibly without noticing.

theonerm2 · May 3, 2018

I'd guess it's a motherboard issue. Most likely the motherboard is going bad and that CAN happen over a period of time where it slowly dies. I've had motherboards that have died and came back to life when pulled back out of my closet years later. Motherboards can work and not work all the time. By that I mean one minute they can be working and the next they're not working. Either way when a motherboard starts showing signs of failure it needs to be replaced. I think it's a motherboard issue. I think buying from China is just asking to be scammed though. They've scammed me. I bought a usb flash drive one time and it was fake. Not to mention shipping time is measured in months not days or weeks.

Rexer · May 10, 2018

My bad. I should've been more clear when I mentioned buying from China. I buy a lot of refurbished and used parts from Asian Pacific countries like China, Taiwan, Malaysia, etc. It's a matter of who has an out dated/obsolete part I need available.
A few years back, I replaced a number of Sony Vaio laptop screens and inverters and could only find them available (at that time) from Hong Kong sources. Fortunately, none of them were bad and a few refurbish keyboards where also good.
But obsolete video cards were a different story. Just me being a 5uck3r for the cheaper price.
Problem is, much of what computer technology is made, it's manufactured outside the U.S.. The only thing that separates low grade from high grade is our strict manufacturing codes and standards. Overseas manufacturers, if they want to sell in the U.S. have to comply to them. With used and refurbished, it's been a roll of the dice.
The reason I take a chance on 'refurbished' over used is it could be a new part. A vendor from Malaysia told me once how his sellers was getting so many of the same refurbished parts. They go to auctions where manufacturers dump a number of unsold computers. They intern buy them, strip them and sell the parts under the condition of 'refurbished'.
I ordered a refurbished motherboard last week so it may take a week or so to pass customs. I'll let you know how it goes.

Rexer · Jan 23, 2019

Jezzzes. It took so long, I just plain forgot about it... Box was beat.. like it's been in every country around the world. Lol, I almost forgot why I ordered it. But I got the board in and she starts up every time, stays running. 4 days. Looks to be the board. Thanks guys for the help!

Do CPUs ever die slow?

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