How much W do you need?

450W for optimal efficiency

Well that psu you want to buy is quite terrible and I would not get it. It has a high chance to fail and take your pc with it.

http://www.realhardtechx.com/index_archivos/DeepCool.htm

The DE480 is really a 350W PSU. With a max 12V load of 300W. It has no 80+ cert, and no real reviews. It also has only one 8pin power plug for GPUs. Honestly I'm surprised it has that. As I said, I don't recall any quality 480W PSUs.

People who say that have no idea what they’re talking about. Any good power supply is rated for 24/7 load at 100% capacity for the temperature rating it describes.

If this is to do with that efficiency myth, forget about it. The computer isn’t always at max loads, and when we factor in each load there is a negligible power bill impact between power supply wattages (given the PSUs are from the same series and platform).

If you want an efficient power supply, choose an overall more effienct PSU. Don’t waste your time doubling the wattage needed.

For OP, instead of worrying about power capacity, since even 350w is enough, look at power supply quality: Required cables, Internal components and platform, protections, electrical performance, fan and fan noise, modularity, efficiency (if that’s concerned about).

What is your budget and where are you located? What are your full system specs?

I did say some people, I failed to mention what I believe. Some shoot for 50% load, I'm comfortable with ~75%. This allows for better efficiency at idle/low power loads. Unless you are doing true high end rigs or high OCs most PCs can be powered by a 450W PSU. Yet all the time I see people saying if you are getting a 1080TI and an 8700K, you need a 750W at least. That's nuts. 450W might be pushing it due to the 250W GPU and 100W CPU, but a 550W is more then enough to power such a rig.

I do see an issue with what you wrote however. While a good PSU can output it's rated output 24/7, I don't think you'll find anyone who agrees that you should push anything that hard for that long. Even my 75% of load number is higher than most are willing to do. Just because your system only needs 273W doesn't mean you go buy a 300W or 350W PSU. Higher the load, the more strain, and the more heat involved. Giving yourself a buffer is a great idea. I agree that it doesn't need to be double, but I wouldn't shoot for 100% of load either.

Just because your system only needs 273W doesn't mean you go buy a 300W or 350W PSU. Higher the load, the more strain, and the more heat involved.

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Relative load, no. The real load, or exact wattage amounts (not percentage), yes. 300W power draw on a 450w PSU will produce about the same heat as on a 1000w power supply, given the PSU is the same series and platform.

Here is an example: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules/NDReviews/images/BitfenixBWG750M/DSC_0199.jpg

Continuous Power - BitFenix Guaranteed Continuously for 24/7 system operation (750w with 7 year warranty).

And the system won't even be 24/7, nor 100%. On a 350w PSU that's ~70% for a couple hours, and ~20% for a few more hours a day. No problem there.

Problem is there aren't any good 350w power supplies.

Giving yourself a buffer is a great idea.

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Only to allow for peak power or future CPU/GPU upgrades. No other reason should you find more buffer.

This allows for better efficiency at idle/low power loads.

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Again, you should ignore efficiency related to power. Because every power supply has a different efficient curve. Some 30%, some are 70%, other in between. and the difference is only about 2%. Also, generally high capacity PSUs are less efficient at idle loads. So in the end it doesn't make a worthwhile difference, in some cases you lose money.

Yet all the time I see people saying if you are getting a 1080TI and an 8700K, you need a 750W at least. That's nuts. 450W might be pushing it due to the 250W GPU and 100W CPU, but a 550W is more then enough to power such a rig.

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I agree.

Your link is bad. Not sure the point you are trying to make.

oh, sorry. It's the third image on this page: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=503 it just states what I wrote in bold on the PSU box.

Point is, it is better for someone filter power supply wattage by what your system needs, not to get confused with efficiency or relative load.

Wait, you are quoting marketing crap? Really? I couldn't care less what one company claims about one of their lines of PSUs. Even if it's true it doesn't make it true for everyone.

Point is, it is better for someone filter power supply wattage by what your system needs, not to get confused with efficiency or relative load.

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Disagree. Step one, figure out what the system needs. Then you need to decide how much load you are willing to go to. While I disagree, the 50% figure is very popular. It's not what I do, but many will buy based on it. You have to do this step and I strongly suggest not loading to 100%. I doubt you'll find anyone other than you to do this. It might work for you, but when dealing with other peoples money and PCs I like to be more cautious. Once you figure out what the system needs and what size PSU to get, I 100% suggest looking at efficiency, warranty, build quality, etc. Reading what you are typing makes it sound like you figure out what the draw is, and then just go get a PSU that supplies it. Worse, because you are quoting me marketing language on a box, it sounds like you aren't concerned about build quality or quality reviews at all.

If you want to load a PSU to 100% or don't even calculate what % it will get loaded to for your rig that's fine. But I highly suggest paying attention to this step when suggesting PSUs for other people. 100% load while gaming is not a good idea.

While I disagree, the 50% figure is very popular. It's not what I do, but many will buy based on it

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Which is pointless for the buyer. They have been misinformed. Wouldn’t you want to be avoiding recommending that “method”? Which is why I don’t understand the point in your first comment

You have to do this step and I strongly suggest not loading to 100%. I doubt you'll find anyone other than you to do this. It might work for you, but when dealing with other peoples money and PCs I like to be more cautious

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I didn’t suggest to choose a power supply that is 100% of system load. Not because a good power supply can’t handle it (which it can, otherwise it wouldn’t be rated for that), but because system load isn’t constant and always changing. A spike/peak would trigger OPP. Also because good quality power supplies only come in 400w, 450w, and above in intervals of 100w.

Worse, because you are quoting me marketing language on a box, it sounds like you aren't concerned about build quality or quality reviews at all

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More so the other way around. You, and others, are getting caught up trying to find a power supply capacity “sweet spot”, instead of focusing on quality. When in the end it hardly, if at all, makes a difference.

Just filter power supplies that can support the systems max load, and choose the best quality/price unit from there.

Because most PSU brands guarantee their power supplies to run at 100% load for 24/7, so why are you arguing whether or not 50% - 75% load for only a few hours will be capable?

Back to the main topic, OP, could we see the full system specifications, as well as your PSU budget and location?

So I guess you're saying that none of the MANY PSU models based on Seasonic's 520 and 620w platform are any good?

There are other oddball capacities which other fair to good units are based off of as well, but I'm not going searching for them at the moment. It just shows that you can never say "always" about almost anything.

I don't know of ANY companies that state on their website OR on the packaging, at ALL, that their units will run 24/7 at 100% capacity. No manufacturer would ever do that, because they know better. Plus, you'd be wasting a ton of power on heat loss, because power supplies don't run efficiently, ANY of them, over a specific percentage of max capacity, based on their efficiency rating. So in REALITY, it's pointless to buy a PSU that will be running at higher than it's maximum efficiency value in order to satisfy the demands of the system.

60-75% is what I generally shoot for. The higher the probable system need, the lower the percentage I want to see paired with it. So, while I might go with a unit that has roughly a 25% over capacity for a system that needs 450w, if the system needs 650w or more, I'm probably going to want something with the ability to supply 100% of the system demand while only presenting a load equivalent to 60% of the PSUs capability.

There is also the irrefutable factor that due to thermal fatigue, capacity aging and general degradation, most power supplies will have a measurable decrease in maximum sustainable capacity over time, which is a big part of the reason why many choose opt for more like 50%, but I think that is more than strictly appropriate.

So I guess you're saying that none of the MANY PSU models based on Seasonic's 520 and 620w platform are any good?

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Correct, because they’re group regulated.

I don't know of ANY companies that state on their website OR on the packaging, at ALL, that their units will run 24/7 at 100% capacity.

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If you read my comment you would know at least 1...
And this if you have read the PSU ratings. For example the Evga G3 650 is rated for 650w of continuos power at 50C. Continuous power means the PSU can run there for any amount of time.

So in REALITY, it's pointless to buy a PSU that will be running at higher than it's maximum efficiency value in order to satisfy the demands of the system.

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If everyone followed your rule, no one would be buying power supplies. Because computer load isn’t constant! (Third time I’ve mentioned that?) And the difference will be 2% efficiency or less at max load, if that already wasn’t negligible note that higher wattage units are less efficient at idle loads.

If you want an efficient PSU, choose an overall efficient power supply, that can support your system.

due to thermal fatigue, capacity aging and general degradation, most power supplies will have a measurable decrease in maximum sustainable capacity over time, which is a big part of the reason why many choose opt for more like 50%, but I think that is more than strictly appropriate

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Do you have any evidence of this?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112658&postcount=2

Do you have any evidence of this?

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Are you claiming PSUs don't break down?! I can same the same for your claim here.

For example the Evga G3 650 is rated for 650w of continuos power at 50C. Continuous power means the PSU can run there for any amount of time.

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They rate it for 650W at 50C, so it will do that 24/7 for 100yrs? 1000? Because PSUs don't wear down over time? Caps don't age? Really?

And the difference will be 2% efficiency or less at max load

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http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=535 4.5%
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=531 4.2%
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=531 3.4%
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=529 3.6%
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=526 3.0%

That last unit is interesting in that it's a bronze unit doing better than those gold Seasonics. 3-5% might not matter to you, but if you are worried about power bills it might matter to some. More so if you are mining on your PC and every little bit helps you be profitable.

Do you have any evidence of this?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112658&p...

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You quote marketing bullet points and forum posts? Serious? Interesting.

I do agree with your above. Lets just drop this and move on. I feel we are arguing over minor points that will just confuse the OP.

Are you claiming PSUs don't break down?! I can same the same for your claim here.

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No. I am saying there is no evidence a good power supply won't be capable of delivering its maximum rated load a few years in the future. Though if you're curious as to why good quality power supplies fail, read here: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/why-power-supplies-fail-psus,36712.html

They rate it for 650W at 50C, so it will do that 24/7 for 100yrs? 1000? Because PSUs don't wear down over time? Caps don't age? Really?

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Likely at least the warranty the give the PSU, given the PSU doesn't die in the process. This argument is irrelavent as OP's system won't be at 100% capacity of any good power supply anyways, not even close.

No-one is saying PSUs don't wear down or capacitors don't age.


Between 20% load (test 2 on those JonnyGuru reviews) and ~75% load (test 4), the max difference is 3%, 1.9%, 1.9% (you linked the same review), 1.3%, and 2.7% respectively.

For the following I'll be using Cybenetics data as their efficiency testing is alot more in depth.

Let's make a scenario. A system consumes on average 255w at gaming load. On the Focus Plus 850w, this is it's "peak" efficiency at 90.860%, meaning the system draws ~280.5w from the wall. On the Focus Plus 550w, it is ~89.6% (estimated), so consumes 284.6w from the wall. That's only a difference of 4.1w. If the system were gaming 5 hours a day, every day of the year, that's about 7.5kW/h saved per years, which is likely under $2 USD.

If that wasn't already unnoticeable, we also need to take into account idle loads (60w). The 550w draws ~70.36w, and the 850w draws ~70.9w. If the computer was idle for 4 hours a day, every day of the year, that is ~.8kW/h saved from the 550w.

Whereas for similar price as the 850 Gold, we can find the 550 Focus platinum. With this power supply you're actually saving power as opposed to the 850 Focus Gold.

So in the end, it is pointless to get confused with how your power supply is loaded, and you'd end up with not a good power supply choice.

Just look at how much your system draws at max, and choose the best power supply that can supply that which fits in budget. This is the easier and better method.

And this helps the OP how? Has he even replied since we've gone this rabbit hole? How much longer do you want to disrupt his thread?

we can find the 550 Focus platinum. With this power supply you're actually saving power as opposed to the 850 Focus Gold.

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OMG! Are you serious? Stop the presses! A Platinum PSU will use less power than a Gold PSU! Shocking! I had no idea!

Again, I'm not sure why you are making a huge deal about this. We are talking about what size PSU to get. I couldn't help but note in your looking at the JG reviews you stopped at test 4. Why? You were talking about 100% load, that's test five. To make yourself right you have to pull up a test early? You said buy the best platform you can. I agree. You said/implied it doesn't matter the size because if it's a quality PSU you can run it 24/7 at 100% load. I disagree. One should pay attention to size of the PSU just as much at the platform. Yes?

I'll be the bigger person and drop this. Go ahead and post your rant and then hopefully we can get this thread back on track.

And this helps the OP how?

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Likely not, until they answer my question earlier asked.

Right now I'm just answering questions you are asking me.

I couldn't help but note in your looking at the JG reviews you stopped at test 4. Why?

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Because that is where the majority of computers consume. No one will load a PSU to 100% constantly with a computer because computers don't pull a consistent amount. My point with the 100% load guarantee is that a good power supply will be able to deliver whatever the load is.

One should pay attention to size of the PSU just as much at the platform. Yes?

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As long as the PSU can provide the amount of wattage it needs it's fine. Other than that one shouldn't pay attention to wattage. There are zero benefits to choosing a power supply larger than your needs, unless it's cheaper.

If OP isn't picking up the message, a good 400w+ power supply would be enough, though we still need full system specs for further compatibility measures.

To be honest, I'm not sure how anybody can even begin to think they know what capacity is appropriate when they have no idea what graphics card or other hardware requirements the system will demand. Everything, every conversation, every suggestion and every assumption is just pure unadulterated speculation, with no basis in the reality of the hardware's requirement, without it.

And your one-off post by one of the Jonny fu fu crew boys, fails to impress me at all. Degradation in ALL electronics is a FACT. An irrefutable fact. Anybody who can't get their head around that has no business making recommendations regarding the purchase of any kind of hardware in the first place. If you really want to know, go ask Aris, and get the real. Like I did.